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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 12:39:36
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
janko. aren't you one sick individual?
turk,
don´t throw stones..............
Stop joking when we discourse severe issues of this nature, it is not funny
Maybe I have the turk-syndrome/turkmanasjukan |
Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
558 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 13:10:00
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Janko
Dont bother with Turk, the boy has been moody all week. He never listen. Seriously, we should get back to the issue at hand - a very important issue. I hope Dalton1 got the answer he is looking for. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
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Dalton1
3485 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 13:46:21
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quote:
"I hope Dalton1 got the answer he is looking for." Tamsier
Sir Tamsier,
The debate is well argued, thus far, I gathered a lot and I am very appreciative of each and everyone that conributed in a spirit of true enlightenment.
For the information of readers here, I am working on meeting my local Imam (Sheik Edris Waleed -May Allah be pleased with him) here to discuss the issue with him. He is an Egyptian by birth, educated in Saudi Arabia -a learned man who memorise the Quran & and knows the sunnah a lot. That is just a personal take for me.
On the side of the health and traditional stance, a lot has been advanced in this debate.
The goal of this thread is to establish a clear "hold." From there, I believe each and everyone of you will join me to spread the message far and while, and to engage both the victims of the act, and those who still believe in it/also others that don't.
Overall, I thank you all for a healthy debate. I hope we keep the direction clean without having to resort to personal threads like seemingly surfacing.
Dalton |
"There is no god but Allah (SWT); and Muhammad (SAW)is His last messenger." shahadah. Fear & Worship Allah (SWT) Alone! (:
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 16:13:26
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Kay, I know Dr. Abdoulaye Saine. He has a PhD in Political Science. He may be a social scientist, but his area of expertese is in Political Science so he cannot speak to this issue either from a health perspective or a cultural perspective. It is akin to asking a dentist (sorry lurker) to act as an expert on cardiovascular procedures.
I am not doubting the existence of FGM. In fact I have unequivocally said here on numerous occasions that we should all be against FGM because there is no reason to mutilate a fellow human being.
On the other hand, what is happening in Gambia is not mutilation by any means in all cases. There are people who are circumcising girls within the limits of what is acceptable. Clearly there are people who are doing it wrongly (removing the while clitoris) and therefore engaging in mutilation. Equally it is wrong to lump everyone who does this practise as savages, even if they do it the right way.
To anwer you question, Kay if the procedure is within the acceptable limits (removing a little bit of the clitoris etc) then it is circumcision, if you engage in anything beyond that then that will be mutilation. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 16:56:41
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| Acceptable limits?? Who is the one to decide what's acceptable or not, in this specific case? To me it is unacceptable at all times, because it serves no purpose whatsoever. |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 18:21:15
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Acceptable limits are when a health risk is not a consequence of circumcision. It does serve a purpose, which you will probably understand not necessarily agree with if you take the time to learn the cultural context in which it is carried out.
All of my female relative have gone through circumcision and none have any of the problems (psychological, physical, or otherwise) trumpeted by the circumcision protagonists. I think it is very important that we make the distinction. This is a clearly a matter of choice. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 19:02:49
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Janko you think women 'arent sexual beings'?!
Perhaps they were before they had FGM done to them!!! 
Older women willingly perform this to their grandchild and the mothers condone it. This is because of cultural tradition.
Innocent little girls being mutilated. It makes me so sad. It brings problems with child birth and problems with enjoying sex. But perhaps Janko doesnt think women should enjoy sex!
I think the key to this is womens groups and sexual education. The chain needs to be broken.
I hope that educated women will stand up and not let it happen to their precious daughters.  
Perhaps some enlightened husbands will put pressure on their wives to not let it happen.
Have a party, a celebration...just without the cutting. |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 21:39:19
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gambiabev,
thanks for the observation and am glad you asked.
For you the statement, "women are not sexual beings" is interpreted;
“Perhaps they were before they had FGM done to them!!!”
”But perhaps Janko doesnt think women should enjoy sex!”
It breaks my heart, I would never think of a woman/mother in those terms, never ever, ever. Sorry if that is what it gives you, forgive my limited knowledge in English.(Mandingka is my language) What I meant to say is that there is more to women than being just sex-objects that the whole society rests on their shoulders.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
Edited by - Janko on 14 Jun 2008 11:34:29 |
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lurker
509 Posts |
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Dalton1
3485 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 14:41:06
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The articles below were forwarded to the Gambia-L by Luntang. I believe they truly add to the on-going debate here. As usual, read it with caution.
Imam Janneh
quote:
“Women circumcisions have being existing long before religion
came to us.”
How old is religion then. I am of the belief it dates back to the time of creation –Adama and Hawa/Eve, May God be pleased with them.
quote:
“My suggestion concerning the matter of women circumcision is that, individuals directly involved must be invited to have their say on the matter through which ways and means of a favorable solution could be reached to satisfy both partners. They shouldn’t be put aside otherwise the whole issue will be meaningless to debate.”
Well, the imam’s first argument, go to the Quran & hadith. Now, he says invite people on the table. That is encouraging!
Imam Nafisah
quote:
2. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is reported to have passed by a
woman performing circumcision on a young girl. He instructed the woman by
saying: "Trim, but do not cut into it, for this is brighter for the face (of
the girl) and more favorable with the husband." [ Mu`jam al-Tabarânî
al-Awsat (2274)]
What definition can we give to ‘trim’ and ‘cut’, in actual practical?
Accept my appreciation of your length but worthy forward.
Fii’amanil lah!!
http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?A2=ind0806b&L=gambia-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=15822
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"There is no god but Allah (SWT); and Muhammad (SAW)is His last messenger." shahadah. Fear & Worship Allah (SWT) Alone! (:
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tamsier
United Kingdom
558 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 16:02:00
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Dalton
This imam is absolutely right in that we have been doing circumcision especially in Africa long before islam - backing up what i originally said.
As regards to your question how old is religion? it depends on which religion you are talking about. If you are talking about islam, judheism and christianity - which all share the same root, having read all their texts, they put creation back to around 10, 000 years ago [Abel and his sibblings - children of Adam and eve]. We know that there is archeological evidence found in Africa dating humans about 2million years ago etc. Therefore, one has to give. I do not want to get into any argument about religion again, because everytime i express an opinion, i am referred to as being anti islam etc. I just thought that i give you the facts as i found them and it is up to you to deal with as you please.
Regards
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Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 14 Jun 2008 16:04:52 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 17:34:19
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quote:
Originally posted by mansasulu
Kay, I know Dr. Abdoulaye Saine. He has a PhD in Political Science. He may be a social scientist, but his area of expertese is in Political Science so he cannot speak to this issue either from a health perspective or a cultural perspective. It is akin to asking a dentist (sorry lurker) to act as an expert on cardiovascular procedures.
I am not doubting the existence of FGM. In fact I have unequivocally said here on numerous occasions that we should all be against FGM because there is no reason to mutilate a fellow human being.
http://www.gambia.dk/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3274
On the other hand, what is happening in Gambia is not mutilation by any means in all cases. There are people who are circumcising girls within the limits of what is acceptable. Clearly there are people who are doing it wrongly (removing the while clitoris) and therefore engaging in mutilation. Equally it is wrong to lump everyone who does
this practise as savages, even if they do it the right way.
http://www.gambia.dk/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3273
To anwer you question, Kay if the procedure is within the acceptable limits (removing a little bit of the clitoris etc) then it is circumcision, if you engage in anything beyond that then that will be mutilation.
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 21:19:42
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Janko thank you for clarifying that. My Mandinka is zero, so i forgive your odd clumsy expression in English!  It just shows how we can interpret things differently just with a slightly different empahsis. I am glad you dont see women JUST as sex objects. |
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