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Momodou
Denmark
11804 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 22:02:50
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Click on the image and read.....
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A clear conscience fears no accusation - proverb from Sierra Leone |
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shaka
996 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2008 : 13:09:04
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quote:
Originally posted by tamsier
Dalton
This imam is absolutely right in that we have been doing circumcision especially in Africa long before islam - backing up what i originally said.
As regards to your question how old is religion? it depends on which religion you are talking about. If you are talking about islam, judheism and christianity - which all share the same root, having read all their texts, they put creation back to around 10, 000 years ago [Abel and his sibblings - children of Adam and eve]. We know that there is archeological evidence found in Africa dating humans about 2million years ago etc. Therefore, one has to give. I do not want to get into any argument about religion again, because everytime i express an opinion, i am referred to as being anti islam etc. I just thought that i give you the facts as i found them and it is up to you to deal with as you please.
Regards
Wrong!! Female circumcision was brought to Africa by the Arabs through interaction with trade and the spread of Islam in Africa. Get your historical facts right before adhering to the above notion with such panache. Male circumcision however was practiced in Africa since time immemorial as a rite of passage. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2008 : 01:45:47
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shaka. Than how come FGM is not a practise in the other part of islamic world such as Turkey, bosnia, albania, kosova, azarbaijan, xinjian province of china,bangladesh, indonesia, malaysia, syria, iraq, iran, qatar, uae, bahrain, morroco, algeria, tunisia, pakistan, kazakistan, uzbekistan, tataristan, kyrgystan, tajikstan, afghanistan, umman. Only in Africa and egypt. Enlighten us.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2008 : 12:24:36
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
shaka. Than how come FGM is not a practise in the other part of islamic world such as Turkey, bosnia, albania, kosova, azarbaijan, xinjian province of china,bangladesh, indonesia, malaysia, syria, iraq, iran, qatar, uae, bahrain, morroco, algeria, tunisia, pakistan, kazakistan, uzbekistan, tataristan, kyrgystan, tajikstan, afghanistan, umman. Only in Africa and egypt. Enlighten us.
According to BBC......(ref. lukers post)Female circumcision... remains a widespread practice in Africa, the Middle East and South East Asia.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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shaka
996 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2008 : 14:40:31
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It is the same reason why the Wollof, Serer, some Jolas and other tribes do not practice female circumcision in the Gambia......and the majority of them are muslims. It is a matter of choice i guess. I can sense your warped reasoning from afar but the least you could have done is to seperate Arab culture from Islam as a religion. Nevertheless the spread of Islam in Africa came as package with Arab culture, likewise Christianity with Western culture. It's not rocket science is it?quote:
Originally posted by turk
shaka. Than how come FGM is not a practise in the other part of islamic world such as Turkey, bosnia, albania, kosova, azarbaijan, xinjian province of china,bangladesh, indonesia, malaysia, syria, iraq, iran, qatar, uae, bahrain, morroco, algeria, tunisia, pakistan, kazakistan, uzbekistan, tataristan, kyrgystan, tajikstan, afghanistan, umman. Only in Africa and egypt. Enlighten us.
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2008 : 16:00:54
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shaka. I thought you were going to provide some links, reference etc. instead of blahs. Hmmm. Interesting. Arabs culture did influence africans more than others.
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According to WHO:
Historical perspective
Where and when FGM was first practised
is not known. Evidence from
Egyptian mummies, suggests that a
form of female circumcision was routinely
practised there some 5000 years
ago.4 In ancient Rome, metal rings
were passed through the labia minora
of women slaves to prevent them from
procreating. And in the United Kingdom
of the 19th century surgical removal of
the clitoris was an accepted technique
for the management of epilepsy, sterility
and masturbation5 (it is not known
why an equivalent procedure was not
applied in men having these ills). In
Africa and the Middle East, FGM is
thought to have taken root untold centuries
ago. Yet, even in that part of the
world there are some countries where
the practice began relatively recently:
the Yemen, for example, adopted FGM
in the 20th century as a result of contacts
with communities in the Horn of
Africa, where the practice had long
been ingrained in the local culture.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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black orchid
United Kingdom
74 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2008 : 18:03:28
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An interesting piece by Gerry Mackie who looks at the similarities between footbinding in China and FGM
http://www.fgmnetwork.org/articles/mackie1998.html
At the end of his piece he states
"The people who do FGC are honorable, upright, moral people who love their children and want the best for them. That is why they do FGC, and that is why they will decide to stop doing it, once a safe way of stopping it is found. "
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shaka
996 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2008 : 19:01:52
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| Do i look like a programmed robot that i should back-up all my opinion with references to other people's opinion. I have a mind of my own and can reason and opine like your sources of reference. They are human like me i guess. What is a fact is that all the tribes in Africa who practice female circumcision are either predominantly Muslims or had close interaction with Arabs. Those who held on to the indigenous African beliefs or are non-muslims do not engage in the practice. Is this coincidence? There are predominantly muslim tribes like the wollof who don't practice female circumcision either.In the Gambia, the Wollof, non-muslim Jolas, Manjagos, Papels and other tribes do not practice female circumcision. Dig else where in the whole of Africa and you will find a similar pattern accross Africa, from Lybia to South Africa. And stop linking me to opinions that are not mine. I did not say anywhere that Arab culture influenced Africans more than others. |
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serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2008 : 19:22:30
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BO, thanks for this link; a very interesting comparison!
It seems that everywhere men try to make sure that women can't run away from them: They cripple their feet (by binding them or putting them into high heels), they 'neutralize' their sexuality (FGM/FGC), deprive them of ressources (i.a. lower wages)... WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU, BOYS? WHAT MAKES YOU SO WEAK-SPIRITED? |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
558 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 12:33:52
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Shaka,
I was away for few days hence why I did not have time to respond to your attack.
You quoted me without fully comprehending the context and content of my posting. To remind you, this is what I said:
'This imam is absoulutely right in that, we have been doing circumcision in Africa long before islam - backing up what I originally said'.
Then you responded:
'wrong! female circumcision was brought to Africa by the Arabs through interaction with trade and the spread of islam in Africa. Get your facts right before adhering to the above nortion with such panache. Male circumcision was practiced in Africa since time immorial as a rite of passage'.
Shaka, if you look at my original posting on this issue, you will find that I said Africans have been carrying out male circumcision long before islam - it was an initiation rite and women later joined in. You even agreed with this in your last sentence. When you quoted me above, you failed to recognise that I did not mention women on that sentence - but circumcision in general [and especially so, in the context of men] thereby substantiating my original posting. You should read carefully before you 'attack the keyboard' with all your might.
Further, when Turk asked you:
'then how come FGM is not practiced in other parts of the islamic world?'
You responded - 'it is the same reason why the Wollof, Serer, some Jolas and other tribes do not practice female circumcision in the Gambia and the majority of them are muslims'.
I will not answer for any body else, but just to say that you are wrong about the Sereers. Some Sereers do practice it and the majority of them are not muslims, but pagans or catholics. A couple of my female relatives who by the way are pure pagans, under gone female circumcision many years ago. Therefore, it is you Shaka who should get you facts right.
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Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
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shaka
996 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 22:48:52
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| Ok Tamsier, i hope when said "a couple" you mean two or very few. It is likewise not unusual to find the odd Wollof or Manjago woman who had gone through female circumcision for one reason or the other. I still hold on to the belief that the majority of Serers in the Gambia are muslims. |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
558 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 11:13:47
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Now you are contradicting yourself, at first you said these tribes dont practice it and now you are saying the opposite. You know what they say, give the man enough rope and ........
For your information, I know at least 11 family members who had undergone it. If it makes you happy to believe that the majority of the sereers are muslims, go on keep believing that, I will not spoil your dream. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 20 Jun 2008 11:14:44 |
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 12:49:34
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Shaka you are on track. The majority of Serrers are Muslims, given the Gambian context. In Senegal the main concentration of pagan and catholic sereers is Joal Fadiouth and its twin city Joal Jong is in habited by Muslims. But these families relatives. one member is a muslim and the other catholic/pagan.I think the former Gambia football star Moses Sarr have relatives there.
On the issue of some of these traditionalist not doing female circumsion before , but now some are doing it is becos of inter-marriage and peer pressure. If a woman comes from such a family and marries into a a family that does it, she has to do it becos of her daughter(s) who would subsequently do it and she being un-circumcized can't have access to them. During my postings as a civil servant i witness this, an old woman was lured by the dancers and she found herself inside the (JUJU-OO or LELEL) she had to be circumsized becos to them she trepassed. So her age didnt spare her.
The serers who normally do this parctise come from Njiombato wich is both in the Gambia and Senegal.They have usually surnames like mandinkas, such as Jammeh, Sanyang etc. I have been in the certain sereer areas in the nuimis but i have never witnessed female circumsion.
A writer by the name of Klein has written extensively on the sereers and fulbe and i could vividly remember in one one works where he touched on sereer traditions. |
madiss |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
558 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 14:26:03
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Yep! There goes another one.
It is Henri Gravrand who has written extensively about the sereers and sereer tradition. Martin Klein [who you are referring to] wrote very few books about the sereers - and nothing on Sereer tradition [only generalisation and in small snippets], in fact his best known book written in 1969 - is titled Islam and imperialism in Senegal, sine-saloum. The general context of that book talked about how the sereer kings of sine saloum had to fight off two external forces: French imperialism and the islamic jihadists. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 20 Jun 2008 14:34:45 |
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shaka
996 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 16:00:34
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Thanks Madiba, you certainly know your Gambia demographic outline. The majority of Serers in the Gambia live in the north bank of the River Gambia(the Niumis). The majority of them are Muslims as well.
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