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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 14:33:19
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quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
Tamsier and Janko, let us not try to defend something that is not defensible. Other people's historical or present wrongs cannot be a justification for our own wrongs.
Our focus should be on how to raise awareness about the negative effects of FGM to enable our people make sound judgments about the practice rather than being hyperactive to critics like Lurker, no matter what words he use in describing it.
Where did Janko defend the act FMG, tell me. to be continued... |
Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 15:47:13
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I think we need to come to some kind of consensus whether Female Circumcision and Female Genital Mutilation are one and the same or different for this debate to get anywhere. Until and unless we establish that we wont make much traction. It is always going to be comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges. So we need some kind of guideline. It will be important if we could get some form of independent literature that definatively set the parameters.
Kay, Dr. Saine to my knowledge is a Political Scientist. I am not aware of his competence when it comes to this issue. If he had a PhD in the area of female sexuality then his "opinions" will be relevant. We need expert opinions not opinionated individuals. We all have our opinions when it comes to this issue so I doubt Dr. Saine's "speech" will hold much sway. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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kiwi
Sweden
662 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 16:58:00
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| According to Medical Encyclopedia (Kayjatta´s link above)female genital mutilation and female circumsion is the same though the former is said to be more accurate. FGM can be performed in many different ways. There are a lof of interesting and useful reading. |
kiwi |
Edited by - kiwi on 12 Jun 2008 16:58:50 |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
558 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 17:05:41
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| 'Sometimes' we dont need literature - made by self promoting individuals to get the facts - especially if those individuals have their own motifs. The latin proverb 'res-ipsor liquitor' [the fact speaks for itself] applies here. Look at the regalia, rituals etc that goes before and after the act is performed and there you will find your evidence that this is a circumcision initiation rite and not for the lack of a better phrase FGM - the purpose of which is merely to torment etc. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 12 Jun 2008 17:21:48 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 22:39:23
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The difference between FGM and female circumcision (FC) is that FMG is an outsider perspective whiles FC is an insider perspective.
FGM is an outsider’s cultural values projected on the cultural values of the other: a people with whom s/he has different cultural values, mostly based on the “wish well” argument. The inconsistency of wishing the other well is that the well-wisher is deemed superior and does not need the involvement of the other; the one s/he wishes well, in the discussion or the decision making process about what the need is.
FC is an insider’s evaluation of existing cultural values within his/her own society and thereby wanting to effect a change from within and gradually. (Ex China, Soviet Union)
Women are not sexual beings but mothers and pillars of society.
It is not true that those who practice FC are women haters, or as Lurker puts it:
“…to take away sexual pleasure and urges from their women, cos men have the presumption that all women will fall on their backs and open their legs to any passing man when their partners are not looking! “
The statement is more representative of Lurker´s woman perception than the traditional reason of FC. The argument is taken directly from a well documented history of how women have been and are treated and controlled in the West, the remnants of which is still preventing women from having same salaries as men even whereas women have the same qualifications.(at least in Sweden, where women are still fighting to get equal pay)
And is not defending FC in anyway but rather wanting to encourage a decent discussion that does not portray the practitioner of FC as barbaric, or uncivilized, or the practice as a premeditated intentionality. Because that would not only be to project outsiders cultural values on the OTHER but also implying that those outside values are universal.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 22:51:07
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quote:
Originally posted by mansasulu
I think we need to come to some kind of consensus whether Female Circumcision and Female Genital Mutilation are one and the same or different for this debate to get anywhere. Until and unless we establish that we wont make much traction. It is always going to be comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges. So we need some kind of guideline. It will be important if we could get some form of independent literature that definatively set the parameters.
Kay, Dr. Saine to my knowledge is a Political Scientist. I am not aware of his competence when it comes to this issue. If he had a PhD in the area of female sexuality then his "opinions" will be relevant. We need expert opinions not opinionated individuals. We all have our opinions when it comes to this issue so I doubt Dr. Saine's "speech" will hold much sway.
Mansasulu, the professor whose speech i mentioned above is a social scientist and FGM is a social and cultural issue. His speech, if I recall was made along side an official (of GAMCOTRAP, an organization involved in this issue in the Gambia).
Wait until you read this speech then you can determine its relevance or lack of it.
To try to differentiate female "circumcision" and "mutilation" is a futile exercise of semantics that seeks to avoid the real discussion of the benefits and perils of FGM.
Unlike male circumcision, which is a simple cutting of the foreskin (prepuce, FGM is more complicated and far-reaching; involving the cutting of the clitoris (the female equivalent of the penis)and or the labiae (minora and majora), and sometimes stitching the vagina all but a small opening for the flow of urine and menstrual fluids. Doesn't this sound like mutilation to you?
If there were a great medical reason for this practice, i will be tempted to condone it; but as far as we know the underlying reason for FGM is male cheuvenism. FGM has been a strong tradition in many societies even before Islam, christianity, and Judaism. May be that is why Muhammad (pbuh) did not condemn it outright. But FGM is not a religious issue, it is a cultural issue.
If you go back and read the link I have provided above, you will see stark differences in the opinions of different islamic scholars on FGM, just like there are stark differences in the methods of FGM practiced in different societies. FYI, Saudi Arabia,(and Afghanistan) perhaps the most conservative Islamic society does not practice female circumcision...; and Egypt, perhaps the most liberal islamic society does practice it...
If you still think female "circumcision" and "mutilation" are two different things, then the burden of proof is upon you to show us the difference... |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 23:31:48
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janko. you are twisting everything i say, so i will not bother to debate with you on this. if you cannot see that it is because we care and value women that we find this practice abhorrent, then you are blind and it is because of ignorance like this that such practices are continued.
you have no idea about my perception of women. you have no idea about me at all which is clear from your complete lack of understanding of what i wrote in this post. you have clearly decided to have a go. fine. do your thing.
i refer you to Kay, with whom i have had my "engagements" over the years. if you don't want to hear it from the westerners, then hear it from your own...
he is african and he writes..
"If there were a great medical reason for this practice, i will be tempted to condone it; but as far as we know the underlying reason for FGM is male cheuvenism. FGM has been a strong tradition in many societies even before Islam, christianity, and Judaism. May be that is why Muhammad (pbuh) did not condemn it outright. But FGM is not a religious issue, it is a cultural issue"
i believe that is almost verbatim what i had said,
but i do not see you lambasting him or accusing him of having a demeaning perception of women, as you have with me.
sometimes it is impossible to debate on this bantaba, because people like you do not like people who are articulate , direct and say what they think when it disagrees with what they do, so they respond with acidity and vitriol ,but it behoves these people to at least have garnered a basic comprehension of the dialogue in front of them they do not like before they open their portals. . then it is an "agenda" instead of an opinion.
take it on the chin son. It is mutilation. It is because of male chauvinism. It is not religious but cultural,it is savage. and nothing you say can change that. Ak Kayjatta and other africans. Ask Waris Diri? have you heard of her? go read her book and then tell me that we are wrong.
Women did not decide to do this. Men did. I ask you again...name ONE SINGLE BENEFIT to the recipient.
have a lovely evening.
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 00:03:15
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Is this what you call a debate, a discussion?
“janko. you are twisting everything i say, so i will not bother to debate with you on this. if you cannot see that it is because we care and value women that we find this practice abhorrent, then you are blind and it is because of ignorance like this that such practices are continued………
because people like you do not like people who are articulate , direct and say what they think when it disagrees with what they do, so they respond with acidity and vitriol ,but it behoves these people to at least have garnered a basic comprehension of the dialogue in front of them they do not like before they open their portals. . then it is an "agenda" instead of an opinion……..”
Lurker, I have nothing against your person.
I get you, and thanks for understanding what I can’t, but I beg you to understand me on just one point, that I AM NOT A SUPPORTER OF FC, which I thought is clearly stated in all my postings herein.
Arrogance and being Articulate are very different in my book
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 02:36:22
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quote:
The argument is taken directly from a well documented history of how women have been and are treated and controlled in the West, the remnants of which is still preventing women from having same salaries as men even whereas women have the same qualifications....... does not portray the practitioner of FC as barbaric, or uncivilized........ to project outsiders cultural values on the OTHER but also implying that those outside values are universal.
Women treatment? Which civilization does not have problem in treatment of women. You are only single out only western civilization? Is FGM, barbaric and uncivilized. does it seem like it is. So whomever practise this is barbaric and uncivilized. I don't see anything wrong with stating this on specificaly on fgm. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 13 Jun 2008 02:46:03 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 03:22:34
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
quote:
The argument is taken directly from a well documented history of how women have been and are treated and controlled in the West, the remnants of which is still preventing women from having same salaries as men even whereas women have the same qualifications....... does not portray the practitioner of FC as barbaric, or uncivilized........ to project outsiders cultural values on the OTHER but also implying that those outside values are universal.
Women treatment? Which civilization does not have problem in treatment of women. You are only single out only western civilization? Is FGM, barbaric and uncivilized. does it seem like it is. So whomever practise this is barbaric and uncivilized. I don't see anything wrong with stating this on specificaly on fgm.
It seems most of us agree that the practice of FC has to stop. We seem to disagree on the descriptive, surely due to the cultural differences, no big deal. But the risk is still out there.
How or what do you think should be done to stop it?
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 03:51:31
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Janko. As you seem very supportive of very radical measures for homosexuality by your prez, I am sure you would support more humane measures.
- why not a measure like, prison terms and monetary fines for such practise.
- Religious leaders from other muslim countries i.e. Turkey where practise does not exist, may be invited to inform public in terms of religious aspect.
But most important, instead of politicians i.e. the president focus on very minor issue by minor of population like homosexuality, they should focus their energy on fgm. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 08:54:52
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turk,
we can not mix the encouragement of the elimination of FC with your support for the elimination of Armenians and Kurds, we can start an other discussion about that, don’t you think…
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 09:51:25
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ok. morning time and new vein.
call it what you will, this practice it seems most would like to see ended.
it seems that most people who have lived away from communities that persist with this tradition ultimately feel that this is unpleasant, unnecessary and seem a bit embarrassed that it still goes on, irrespective of WHY it goes on in this modern age.
so what's to be done.
i tentatively suggest that this is predominantly a practice of under- or uneducated people, from rural areas and villages nowadays, and before you bite my head off, i am sure that tehre are some very educated people who still do it as it is their culture and heritage.
but they ultimatley get to see the world and learn different opinions and may be can be persuaded that this may not be the best thing for their future daughters.
how do you convince the people like my village-minded mother-in-law, to ever stop the practice.
making laws may work a bit, but who enforces them with conviction, to be honest, in gambia.
it the rural populations have such blind faith ,as mad as some of us think this is, in the pres and his ridiculous cures etc, then maybe he could, for once., put his orations to good use.
i suggest that the pres, the imams, the educated more objective community leaders, the people who have suffered from this to their peril, are encouraged to talk openly abou this subject and take away the taboo aspect.
it will take time, but open dialogue will allow local people to speak their true feelings.
if it is decided that the general concencus is to abolish it, then do so. bu that decision can only come from people who are not scared to think aloud or talk freely or bullied into compliance by the male elders and leaders who fear a loss of hteir subjugative chauvinistic powers.
a hard concept for some.
might this be a possibility in modern day gambia?
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 12:15:58
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| janko. aren't you one sick individual? |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 13 Jun 2008 12:18:38 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 12:27:40
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Lurker,
I think that would be a very good start......to be continued time const. |
Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
Edited by - Janko on 13 Jun 2008 12:28:45 |
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