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tamsier
United Kingdom
558 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 19:02:21
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I am a traditionalist and I too find the practice appealing and totally unecessary. I strongly believe it should be stopped, so not all traditionalists are backwards thinking. African cirmcumcission in general 'did not' take its roots from islam. It was practiced for thousands of years - the purpose of which was: an initiation rite marking a youth's journey from childhood to adulthood; it test a person's character and his loyalty, respect, honour of his parents, sibblings and the society he lives in. It was originally the men who had to go through that practice, women later joined in the practice - marking a girl's journey from childhood to adulthood. Other examples of this include the 'Njam' as seen in senegambia and other African countries, the Nyass [scared face] as seen in other african countries, the enlarging of the lips and ears etc. It was a practice encouraged and performed by the women elders who had undergone such practice themselves. They considered it a mark of honour and I tell you one thing right now, those women where not driven into it by the men. Women were as powerful as men in ancient Africa - because in those days, the Africans believed that pure blood passes through the maternal line and women were highly revered as goddes - a good example in the Goddess Mindis who is still revered today in senegal. Islamic circumcission - if ever there was one, take its origin from the Jewish faith [the ancestor of the islamic and christian religions]. Because of islam's link to the jewish faith [who also practice, male circumcission], some devout african muslims use it as a way of justifying it - hence giving it legitimacy why it should be practiced and extended to women, knowing full well that their ancient pagan ancestors were practicing it long before islam. I refer you all to that great ancient hymn [tagou na mbaar]. There you will find in one of the verses how they reject the ancient gods in favour of Allah [Yalla - which derives from Allah] - this was the beginning of Islams influence on the the ancients' practice.
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Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 11 Jun 2008 19:39:42 |
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 19:49:43
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Tamsier, i hope you meant 'appalling' instead of 'appealing', because the first thing means it puts you off and the second would mean it turns you on, would be attracted to. Given the overall ideas you express in your posting, i assume it was just a typing error.
I think this discussion is going very well with a lot of important information, which i hope will help Dalton1 to come to a balanced decision when it comes to the well being of his daughter. Believe it or not, at heart i am a traditionalist myself but times change and our knowledge increases (there is so much more information available these days) and with all that, in my view, we owe it to ourselves and our loved ones to look at 'traditions' critically and know when it is time for some of them to be discarded for good. |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 20:10:18
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quote:
Originally posted by black orchid
Just a little side note FGM has also been practiced in the West, and that "the practice of clitoridectomy was actually promoted in the United States and Britain during the 19th and early 20th centuries as a cure for lesbian practices or suspected inclinations, masturbation, hysteria, epilepsy, and nervousness."
BO,
Thats news to me. If possible i would love to have access to any literature that refers to the above assertions. Am not doubting you in anyway. I just want more evidence to solidify my stance of being a neutral. That is those who want to practice it are free and those who dnt are also free to hold onto their belief. No group should pressure the other. For me as i told my wife, is if they won't harm my daughter am fine. Any cruelty or risks of infection is not for me. |
madiss |
Edited by - MADIBA on 11 Jun 2008 21:16:24 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 20:20:35
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Thanks Kaanibaa, for your cautiousness in approaching such a severe issue. A good and fruitful dialog calls for respect from all parties.
A couple of years ago I show a documentary film call; “The perfect Vagina” on Swedish TV4. The program was about women who want to match the sizes of their husbands’ penises with the help of plastic surgery. The women in the program undergo surgery (in Hollywood) to take away some parts to reduce or increase the size of their vagina.
Dalton1
“Locally … These blades never get sterilized. It leaves many vulnerable to blood transmitted diseases like HIV Aids.” This risk is also present in the circumcision of boys; hence it’s performed by the same traditional doctor and manner.
The Eugenics inspired lobotomy practiced by many European countries in their social engineering endeavour, and other forms of controlling their women folk took many years and hard PR-campaigns to change the minds (gradual). To advocate for an immediate stop is not only sentimental but also unrealistic since we talking about a tradition of hundreds of years.
The practice of FMG/Circumcision would surely stop; most of us agree that it is not to the wellbeing of the victims or society. It needs carefulness not resentment towards the practitioner and calling him/her all kinds of names that suits one at any given time; barbaric, brutal; primitive that would neither be true nor help the issue. What is needed is an effective information campaign about its disadvantages directed to the practitioners with respect.
Dialog about culture and traditions ought to be respectfully conducted and not used as evidence for degradedness or …
Egypt has recently passed a law forbidding the practice of FMG.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 21:54:54
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We have discussed this so many times I am almost tired of the discussion. BUT
In the villages Gambian women mandinka) feel obligded to agree to FGM for their daughters. If they don't their daughter is outcast and considered unclean.   Other girls wont want to play with her and men wont want to marry her.
The social pressure to do it is incredible.
It isn;t just the act that needs changing, but the whole attitude to women and their place in society and religion.
Women are individuals equally as important as men. They should have human rights: right to an education, right to freedom of choice, right to decide who to marry FREELY., right to refuse to be cut.
Education is the key. Womens empowerment to say NO to FGFM.
Any Gambian women reading this, or Gambian men with daughters I beg you please dont do this to your daughter. |
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Dalton1
3485 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 01:30:28
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Brothers & Sisters,
As noted by Sis Anna, the topic is very progressive. What I have observed so far is a constructive brain-storming of factual ideas. To lay the difference of “mutilation” and “circumcision”, a friend told me, it all depends on the context. The gender activist loves to make his/her case heard so they want to echo aloud, making it look scary, so they will go with “mutilation”, while in ordinary language, it is circumcision.
We have heard the;
-medical side
-religious side
-traditional side
-westerners’ side
Problem: FGM/female circumcision.
Female genital mutilation, other wise female circumcision is a practice in existence that involves cutting part of human organs, notably in this case a female. It is mostly practiced in West Africa. Here in, we are interested in finding out its problems and why people have been practicing it for so long. From there on, we will come up with conclusions and advocate for those particular conclusions.
Thanks to each and every one of you that contributed. I am truly getting enlightened on something here. I am sure the many other readers are as well.
To be continued…
Dalton |
"There is no god but Allah (SWT); and Muhammad (SAW)is His last messenger." shahadah. Fear & Worship Allah (SWT) Alone! (:
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 08:47:55
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http://www.answers.com/topic/female-genital-mutilation
This link above might be useful in this discussion. I was looking for Dr. saine's speech in Norway (I think) some years ago on this topic but can't find it as yet. That might be very useful too. I will post it if I find it. |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 09:43:11
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Dalton, hi. you may dress this issue up as
-medical side
-religious side
-traditional side
-westerners’ side
but, surely it is just humane side versus inhumane side. that's all. the rest is surely just adornment with special adjectives to engender (non)justification for this act.
the bottom line is simple..
Kindly name ONE single benefit to the poor recipient that is brought about by such procedures. there are ,as far as i know, no medical, emotional, physical or any other direct benefits are achieved by the performing of this act.
and, thus, if there are no benefits to the recipient, by definition, there are only benefits to the inflicter, other wise it would not exist. What kind of justification is that? - under any term or grouping or adjectival dressing -up people may elect to use about this act of savagery.
this is not a tattoo or an elective surgical procedure. women only say yes under duress and the huge weight of hundreds of years of cultural pressure, and the social stigma if they say no or try to.
sorry, but it is really quite simple in that respect. |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 10:18:35
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No, female circumcision is not only practiced in West Africa.
Lurker, your agenda seem going beyond what we are discoursing here, whatever it is you are not omnipotent. Because you fail to observe that most of us are trying to move beyond just speaking against the practise but finding ways to put the information on the right spot.
After all who is doing the interpretation, is it the victim or ….….be mindful of what you say about other peoples social practices.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 10:41:01
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what agenda???
strong , forthright opinions do not = agenda.
someone VERY close to me was taken out to a tree when she was 17 and had her "procedure carried out " by an old woman with a dirty razor blade, while screaming and being held down by the other women.
what agenda? her sex life was harmed forever. fact. |
Edited by - lurker on 12 Jun 2008 10:49:57 |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
558 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 12:56:20
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Anna
You are right it was a typing error. I meant to say appalling. Thanks for correcting me.
Lurker
'Act of savagery'. where is that coming from. There are more acts of savagery going on in other parts of the world - I've never seen any posting by you to that effect. In America, some states still have the death penalty, in Europe, they used to behead people, hanged people, burned women who they believed to be withces, drowned people, hanged people, others were turned in a spiked wheel - their blood dripping in a container, and I can go on and on.
This is an ancient practice, an initiation rite carried out by the women elders, I personally do not support it, but i will not refer to them as savages. At least their motif was/is not to take life, but to give the poor soul the honour of transferring from childhood to womanhood. Yes! i do not agree with the method they use, but their motif is honourable compared to Europe, America and other parts of the world whose motif is to take life. So you tell me who is the savage? |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 12 Jun 2008 12:57:35 |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 13:04:31
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tamsier, i referred to the act itself as savage, not to the people who perpetrate it as savages. they just do what they are used to doing or are expected to do.. .big difference. you have not read it properly, i think.
using the word savage is an applicable word.
tell me that hacking off genitals is not savage.
wikipedia describes savagery as acts that are
wild; not cultivated
barbaric; not civilized
fierce and ferocious
brutal, vicious, or merciless
my apologies if this particular act does not fulfill any of the above definitions.
i totally agree with you that there are plenty of nasty things in the world that are even worse. they are not being discussed here, though, are they? and cataloguing the cruelties in the world does not really lessen the impact of the act we actually are talking about, does it?
savage acts are savage acts wherever they happen.
if you want to start a thread about some of the other horrific global practices going on that you mention, please do so and i am sure you and i will agree about most of it. |
Edited by - lurker on 12 Jun 2008 13:11:53 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 13:21:09
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Tamsier and Janko, let us not try to defend something that is not defensible. Other people's historical or present wrongs cannot be a justification for our own wrongs.
Our focus should be on how to raise awareness about the negative effects of FGM to enable our people make sound judgments about the practice rather than being hyperactive to critics like Lurker, no matter what words he use in describing it. |
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Dalton1
3485 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 13:58:00
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Bro Lurks, Greetings!
Perhaps a medical doctor/dentist like yourself (if memories serve me well), you are probably frustrated about the practice which might stimulate your reactions. I truly understand your frustration.
Also, Janko’s argument is we have a problem, i.e. FGM. The enlightenment might be a solution here, I am thinking as well.
Otherwise, good debate from all of you especially bro Tamsier. God knows, my appreciation of all the threads knows no bounds. I was advised that the topic has some sensitive parts to it, for example attaching it to culture, sect, tribe, race, et cetera…but I am convinced that this debate will not escalate in our hands here.
Bros Kay, Kaniibaa or sis Anna or anyone in position –
Can someone kindly volunteer a poll(S) on this topic as time permits you, & thanks -to be submitted with out bantaba admins.
Regards,
Dalton |
"There is no god but Allah (SWT); and Muhammad (SAW)is His last messenger." shahadah. Fear & Worship Allah (SWT) Alone! (:
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tamsier
United Kingdom
558 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 14:18:48
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Kay
I agree with you that this is undefensible, and I have never ever defended it if you look at my postings on this issue. I also agree with you that the focus should be on raising awareness of the negative effects of FGM, to enable our people to make sound judgement. However, what I do not agree with you on is criticising Lurker no matter what words he use in describing it. The words someone uses [without parallels] in describing the practice of another's culture - says a lot about the person judging and how they view that culture which they believe to be alien to them.
Lurker
Well done, Wilkipedia, a very reliable source. I dont have a problem with the definition but it show were you get your information from.
Lets not play on words. I rather you say what you think rather than playing on words. I have no respect for people who play on words. I thought you were more direct than that. Its just like saying I dont hate homosexuals i only hate the act. Well that doesn't wash with me - the people who do the act are homosexuals period. The same rationale holds for the women who perfom FGM, to say you dont mean the people are savages but the act, is utter nonsese.
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Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 12 Jun 2008 14:41:14 |
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