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Dalton1
3485 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 00:00:07
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By YJ
FGM, otherwise Female genital mutilation locally “Female circumcision” is the cutting of the female’s clitoris. This topic is one of the most confused. For one, it is a whole chapter of differences: Western beliefs Vs. Traditional beliefs. Some has attached it to religion as well. Some respected imams in the Gambia especially, argued in favor of the practice with emphasis that it is not “mutilation” but rather “circumcision.” Others will question the difference of the two words. That will not be my argument here.
Those that support the practice said that it controls the excessiveness of sexual desire and make the woman control such moods with true satisfaction after intercourse.
Those that don’t support it argued that the act is cruel and meant to tame the woman’s sexual feelings. Further, the fear for a ‘scar and wound’ which would always live to hurt the woman during birth, intercourse and urination is disturbing.
Locally, we know traditional doctors use one knife to practice it on a lot of people at the same time. These blades never get sterilized. It leaves many vulnerable to blood transmitted diseases like HIV Aids.
The case for men is different. We know that it is healthy to remove the foreskin to expose the “head”, so as to clean dirt of urine and sperm that can accumulate around the “head.” It is also a known fact that during sexual intercourse, ejaculation would need to empty out to the recipient, and otherwise union and production of offspring will never materialize.
As I piece this, I also intend to find out the teachings of the Holy Scriptures on this subject matter. All is certain; the process creates bleeding of blood.
In the case of plants and flowers, it is ok to prune them all the time. That gives them better canopies and growth. These are also living things. Could it be that a similitude holds? I truly don’t know. I also have a daughter, so this matter concerns me. I am sure, it concerns others too. The truth is what we are after so let it gush forth with the help of God whose wisdom and knowledge supersedes everything.
If you have an answer, please sincerely share it with reference to tradition, health wise, religion and et cetera…
Regards,
YJ
NB: Sab, Omega, jambo, Mbay & others (all) -I expect your usual participation on this thread.
quote:
Norway accuses Gambian couple of circumcising daughters: report
3 days ago
OSLO (AFP) — Norwegian police accused a Gambian couple on Friday of subjecting five daughters to genital mutilation in the country's first-ever case against the illegal act of female circumcision.
"The father and mother are accused under laws against genital mutilation because they are suspected of contributing to the circumcision of five of their six daughters," Hanne Kristin Rohde, a police official told NRK radio.
Only two of the six children who are aged between three and 14 live in Norway, although the others -- who live in West Africa's Gambia, with the man's two other wives -- have Norwegian passports. These include a three-year old who has not yet been circumcised.
Rohde made it clear that Norway's public child protection agency would be entrusted with caring for all the children.
Their father, a 41 year-old whose identity has not been disclosed, is expected to appear before a judge with authorities seeking his detention. Their mother, due to give birth to a seventh child, is said to be too weak to spend time behind bars.
Rohde said Norwegian laws against female genital mutilation carry a prison term of several years depending on the severity of the case.
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"There is no god but Allah (SWT); and Muhammad (SAW)is His last messenger." shahadah. Fear & Worship Allah (SWT) Alone! (:
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Edited by - Dalton1 on 11 Jun 2008 00:50:28 |
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Dalton1
3485 Posts |
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 07:06:37
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| Very brave of you to come up with this topic, Dalton1 - and i am happy about it, for if it would have been me introducing it (again) i would be accused of all kinds of unpleasant things! As you can see from the links you provided us with (Mr Fatty's ideas we discussed at length before)there are variations of this kind of mutilation, but it will always be mutilation. I cannot imagine any parent would willingly mutilate his or her girl child! Bottom line for me will always be: why mutilate a girl, when it is so painful, so degrading and above all, so totally unnecessary - there is absolutely no useful aspect to it (as opposed to the circumcision of boys)?? No need to tell you that i hope with all my heart you will see to it that your own daughter will never ever have to undergo this cruel thing. Keep her 'whole', please. |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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Lily
United Kingdom
422 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 09:03:23
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In the end this does untold damage. Both psychologically and physically and has lasting effects on too many girls and women. Here, in Britain, it is an illegal practice and no different from child abuse - it has nothing to do with religion (as the scholars here will confirm) but everything to do with tradition.
And now I know there will be a flood gate opened and as ever westerners will be accused of not understanding. That's also simply not true - families are under pressure to do this and it takes a very brave person to say no and to stand up to the rest of the community (and I know people who have)
But just because something is an old tradition doesn't mean it's the right thing to carry on doing .... |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 09:55:22
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Pruning cannot be compared to FGM. Humans are humans and plants are plants. Plants do not have emotions like people do. People get psychologically damaged by cruel and bad experiences, unlike plants. Cutting plants (pruning) is decorational and often there is regrowth of the cut parts. In FGM, the cut part (clitoris and or parts of the labia minora and majora) do not regrow. Instead there may be scarification which may complicate dilation during child birth.
FGM is a very brutal traditional practice in my view, and I am yet to see or hear a good reason to justify it ... |
Edited by - kayjatta on 11 Jun 2008 09:56:03 |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 12:26:41
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| and you won't.... |
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Dalton1
3485 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 12:40:27
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Sis Anna,
For too long now, the practice has survived. Admittedly, some of us are from such societies where the practice lived unchallenged for centuries. For goodness sake, God Almighty won’t place on us that which is not good. [May God not use my weakness/nature to test my faith. Amen!] It is whether we know or not. Factually, our knowledge of things has limitations but there is an answer somewhere for me and the many others who are interested in the truth of the matter. That answer is what I am looking for now.
I am looking for proof now. I want to satisfy my mind. I need verses and supportive hadiths, in the case of the Holy Scriptures. I need convincing proof from the traditional folks. It is too obvious of the nature of the damage for any not to wish a resolution on this matter just now.
It might not be bravely from me. I am just sick of the suspense in mind –“It is religion. It is culture. It is neither of them.” I wish religions and cultures don’t have it as an obligation. Clearly, that will be a sweet way. I do have unconditional love for culture and religion. I do not like innovations, for even the prophet of Islam warned of innovations as total disbelief. I followed an article recently where it alleged some died of the practice. That helped bump my emotions and curiosity over the true stance surrounding this surviving mystery. I dare not challenge what religion or culture ruled, but I have a right to question things that I find questionable, especially if it is happening in the manner observed; where in different scholars of religion and culture hold opposite views. I was in screaming mood.
Thanks for your input bro Kay, lurks, Sis Anna and Sis Lily flower.
Regards,
Dalton |
"There is no god but Allah (SWT); and Muhammad (SAW)is His last messenger." shahadah. Fear & Worship Allah (SWT) Alone! (:
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Edited by - Dalton1 on 11 Jun 2008 12:43:50 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 12:42:01
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| I am inclined to believe that... |
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Lily
United Kingdom
422 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 12:55:56
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I, too, would be interested to know where it says in the Scriptures that young girls should be circumcised.
That it is a tradition is agreed by us all
I can understand why you would not wish to challenge religion Dalton - but surely traditions should be challenged if they are old, out-dated and, blatantly, harmful! |
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kaanibaa
United Kingdom
1169 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 15:16:41
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| FGM or circumcision in the female quarter was and is till being debated by Islamic scholars in the Senegambia region. I have listened to some of them advocate for it and others yet still spoke against it. What I could gather from those statements is that ;the subject of this topic was actually being practiced before the advent of Islam. That the prophet knew about the practice and according to the pro camp he did not condemn it. Leaning on this they claim thus; that had it been bad he would have condemned it , they further went to claim that he actually recommended that those who do the practice should be considerate and not cut too deep or to rashly .Leaving as it were a bit of the excised part. I also gathered from these sermons that hence the holy prophet did not condemn the act it cannot come under the classification of un-Islamic acts.The opposite group cling on the view that as he did not prescribe it,it cannot stand on the platform of those acts classed as Islamic. The dividing line there fore is that those who do practice it do so because it was not condemned and refuse to accept its classification as such .It was tolerated by the silence of the Holy prophet ,not recommended as I was able to understand. Coming to our current standing in society, it is clear that the risks involve are so great ;what with the appearance of HIV/AIDS etc we can surely, decide on individual basis to do away with this practice.If you want to depend on holy scriptures to back the act bro Dalton , I am afraid you will wait for ever as it seems to me that this a very gray area. The advocates for banning the practice were in my opinion approaching the issue very bravely , but by the use of Islamic clerics the debate spilled over to a stalemate.The scientific arguments surely defined the risks which am sure are quite glaringly apparent to most people; the uncertainty lay in the religious points raised. The die hard traditionalists though would feel offended by some remarks or descriptions of the said act ,by activists; which included among others barbaric ,primitive and un Islamic etc and so did not help bridge the gap.If one wants to make people stop what their great great grand parents were practicing you do not insult them, i suggest respectful dialog and proper scientific education is the best approach. |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 15:21:23
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Dalton, I not only understand, but share your concerns. Female Circumcision, is a cultural practice that is NEITHER SUPPORTED NOR CONDEMNED by any sound religious edicts. Now, with every thing in life, if you do it in the wrong way it can be harmful. Circumcision is done in hospital settings nowadays, so the fears of infections are substantially, if not totally eradicated. Mutilation is a totally different thing to Circumcision.
In a nutshell, it is a matter of CHOICE as far as circumcision is concerned. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 15:36:12
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pls explain why female genital MUTILATION is any different from female CIRCUMCISION.
one is deliberately removing body part(s) which affect the quality of the person's life - and for what reason on earth?
so that men can "control" the promiscuous nature of females? it is mutilation by any description. the same god who gave them the parts does not stand up and argue against their removal therefore it remains in society?
why not take fingers or eyes. they also function and would be missed, just as are the female genitals when hacked off, surgically or otherwise.
this is a complete and utter chauvinistic control issue.
it was designed by men, to take away sexual pleasure and urges from their women, cos men have the presumption that all women will fall on their backs and open their legs to any passing man when their partners are not looking!
The insinuation is that women are some kind of feral, hormonally-driven creatures, unable to close their legs.
it is backwards, reprehensible, cruel, callous, selfish, morally bankrupt, harmful, dangerous, anachronistic and just plain nonsense.
the culture of retaining it does not explain its origin.
men did/do it for men. women historically do what they are told by men.
now it is so engrained that they do not even question it. Again , that would involve problems with their men.
said it before, africa will flourish when their women are empowered.
the abolition of this butchery should be the first stage of the empowerment of women.
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Edited by - lurker on 11 Jun 2008 16:42:31 |
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kaanibaa
United Kingdom
1169 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 16:07:19
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| Hot hot hot |
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Lily
United Kingdom
422 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 16:08:40
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Interesting post Kaanibaa and explains the religious dilemma clearly - but clearly that's what it is - a dilemma. We could suggest reasons why it was not fully condemned but we'll never really know. Silence doesn't help. Today we all know so much more about women's health and all (I hope) now accept that women are equal to men therefore, surely, ancient practices which may well have been performed on women to keep them subservient should no longer be tolerated amongst us ...
Mansasula - you say it's a matter of choice - whose? What right do parents have to 'mutilate' hurt or harm their children. It's far from a fair choice ...
No doubt this debate will, as usual, divide us here on Bantaba but let's hope that doesn't mean vitriolic personal attacks ....... |
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serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 16:45:11
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Excellent, lurker. 
mansasulu, 'mutilation' is a judgmental description, 'circumcision' is the neutral expression. Done to a woman, circumcision can mean heavy mutilation, but the cutting of an arm, the nose etc. is also mutilation unless it is a medically necessary operation. But this is definitely not the case with female circumcision.
Dalton, is it absolutely proof that circumcision was practised in Saudi Arabia in the 1st Millenium?
The Prophet gave definite instructions on almost every aspect of life - so why did he ignore this point? Could it be that circumcision was unknown to him? In the Holy Coran, I didn' find one single word about it. Or maybe by remaining silent in the question of female circumcision he avoided another confrontation, after all the trouble he got into when he condemned the killing of baby girls, and when he gave women certain rights. |
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black orchid
United Kingdom
74 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 18:17:13
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| Just a little side note FGM has also been practiced in the West, and that "the practice of clitoridectomy was actually promoted in the United States and Britain during the 19th and early 20th centuries as a cure for lesbian practices or suspected inclinations, masturbation, hysteria, epilepsy, and nervousness." |
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