| Author |
 Topic  |
|
gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 23:03:28
|
Turk, so do you think it is ok for China to go into Gambia and do what it wants?
I think it is fine for China to invest in Gambia as long as it is environmentally responsible.
Do Gambians working for Chinese investors get paid a fair wage and have holiday pay and pensions?
Do the chinese companies give anything back to the local community? |
 |
|
|
toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 23:09:28
|
"Unfortunately, Gambia doesn't have much power to bargain with China. Sorry but that is the reality."
So, we agree, Gambia has no power to enforce changes which would benefit workers or the environment.
that said,how would you proceed to make things better IN THIS INSTANCE ? |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
|
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 00:53:27
|
Bev
Of course not. But unlike British Empire was doing whatever it wanted as they were the master of the land when they were the empire, China can not do whatever it wants now. Gambia is not colony of China. Gambia has absolute legal authority in the business deal and it can restricted any thing they want. All business deals are fair. Unlike under gun like old times, China is dealing business on the table. Based on demand/supply. More civilized. However, because of Gambia's economic needs and dependencies, probably they will not resist foreign investors.
All of these questions are under responsibility of Gambian Government. There is little, anyone can blame for China. They are in business, they will not worry about Gambians. No one will sorry for you, you need to stand on your own. It is survival.
Touby
It is difficult. This instance reminds me the character of Yossarian (Catch 22, novel). Gambia must put economic and social development before everything else and focus on growth, i.e. Korea, Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia....It is long term solution. Gambia spends so much time and energy on political process which is beneficial but not as much as economic development. For now.
|
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 03 Sep 2010 01:18:56 |
|
|
|
kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 07:29:44
|
Turk, it is understood around the world that Chinese businesses like to cut corners when it comes to quality, safety and environment health issues. You will probably remember the mass recall of millions of Chinese-manufactured "lead-tainted toys" in the U.S. a couple of years ago. China's business conduct in its own home (in China) is no different-it is characterized by environmental destruction, and abuse (exploitation) of workers. Some of the recent natural disasters in China are direct results of poor environmental management. The earthquake, a couple of years ago, that killed thousands of people under poorly-built collapsing public buildings including schools was indeed shocking but surprising to many people.
Perhaps it can be understandable, that China is still in the "industrial age". I have said this here before in another discussion. Africa will pay a huge price in environmental costs as a result of Chinese business activity in the continent. This is not to say that Africa didn't pay a huge price as a result of colonialism, but that is the past and we do not want to repeat that. The past does not justify the present.
No matter what kind of business contract they signed with the Gambia government, Chinese businesses must be held responsible for any damages done to individuals and society. Individuals that are injured should be able to bring action against the comapany. The company could be found in breach and liable for failing to adhere to standard waste disposal procedures. Also, the company might even be legitimately considered a "public nuisance" and therefore ordered closed by a court of law.
What are the Chinese doing in the Gambia? Taiwan is our friend! I thought the two don't mix... |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 09:31:44
|
| So, our conclusion is that Gambia needs to protect itself. Gambia needs to set the standards for the industry about the environment for foreign investment. If China is doing something bad for environment, it is up to Gambian government to ensure (for example fine, court process etc) that China to follow certain environment standards. If China still doing it. It is under Gambia's control to kick China out of Gambia. Gambia has full control of Chinese activities in Gambia. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
|
|
|
toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 14:57:49
|
| More common sense turk ? what happened ? |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
|
|
|
|
sab
United Kingdom
912 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 22:11:27
|
I am late reading this thread & although it appears to have come to a conclusion I thought the following link might be of interest to some.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1036105/How-Chinas-taking-Africa-West-VERY-worried.html#ixzz0yUvHe7gp
The result of China's demand for raw materials and its sales of products to Africa is that turnover in trade between Africa and China has risen from £5million annually a decade ago to £6billion in 2008
According to one veteran diplomat:
'China is easier to do business with because it doesn't care about human rights in Africa - just as it doesn't care about them in its own country. All the Chinese care about is money.'
Nowhere is that more true than Sudan. Branded 'Africa's Killing Fields', the massive oil-rich East African state is in the throes of the genocide and slaughter of hundreds of thousands of black, non-Arab peasants in southern Sudan.
In effect, through its supplies of arms and support, China has been accused of underwriting a humanitarian scandal.
The atrocities in Sudan have been described by the U.S. as 'the worst human rights crisis in the world today'
The Chinese - who now buy half of all Sudan's oil - have happily provided armoured vehicles, aircraft and millions of bullets and grenades in return for lucrative deals. Indeed, an estimated £1billion of Chinese cash has been spent on weapons.
As well as enticing hundreds of thousands to settle in Africa, they have even shipped Chinese prisoners to produce the goods cheaply.
In Kenya, for example, only ten textile factories are still producing, compared with 200 factories five years ago, as China undercuts locals in the production of 'African' souvenirs.
Where will it all end? As far as Beijing is concerned, it will stop only when Africa no longer has any minerals or oil to be extracted from the continent.
|
The world would be a poorer place if it was peopled by children whose parents risked nothing in the cause of social justice, for fear of personal loss. (Joe Slovo - African revolutionary) |
|
|
|
gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 22:49:55
|
| Sab, I hope people will listen to you. |
|
|
|
toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 23:30:31
|
SAB. Thanks for posting this,to me I see the logic of the Chinese (often justifiably described as inscrutable !) the final paragraph of the piece in the Daily Mail sums up the fears of many people, me included;
"The people of this bewitching, beautiful continent, where humankind first emerged from the Great Rift Valley, desperately need progress. The Chinese are not here for that.
They are here for plunder. After centuries of pain and war, Africa deserves better."
Are African countries in a position to refuse China with its deep pockets to carry out their long term plans, given the shakey and ineffective administrations that exist in many countries in Africa today ?
|
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
|
Edited by - toubab1020 on 03 Sep 2010 23:31:02 |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2010 : 02:26:21
|
Let me read the newspaper and see what I understand.
quote:
The result of China's demand for raw materials and its sales of products to Africa is that turnover in trade between Africa and China has risen from £5million annually a decade ago to £6billion in 2008
What is wrong with that? Before Europe, as a single buyer of the materials, now, China is in the market, the prices are gone up. European market does not like it. What is wrong with Africa is increasing its trade. Let me repeat again. Unlike, Europe, China does not steal the resources, instead, African government sits on the table with China and they make business deal absolutely with no pressure.
So, here is the question I want some answer. Do China force Africans to do deal?
quote:
'China is easier to do business with because it doesn't care about human rights in Africa - just as it doesn't care about them in its own country. All the Chinese care about is money.'
What I understand here is that, China does not care about human rights. Hmmm, interesting, do Europe or USA care about human rights violations in China. China is the biggest trade partner of all of the western countries. I don’t see west to have any problem of human rights violations in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Israel even in Africa. Europe is doing trade with Africa too.
quote:
Nowhere is that more true than Sudan. Branded 'Africa's Killing Fields', the massive oil-rich East African state is in the throes of the genocide and slaughter of hundreds of thousands of black, non-Arab peasants in southern Sudan. …..In effect, through its supplies of arms and support, China has been accused of underwriting a humanitarian scandal.
It is not China’s fault what happening in Sudan. It is Sudan’s fault. I don’t want mention but Europe and USA also are selling weapons to countries like Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Apartheid Regime and many other. So why is it big deal when China sells weapon?
quote:
The atrocities in Sudan have been described by the U.S. as 'the worst human rights crisis in the world today'
How about tragedy in Palestine, Iraq, Saudi Arabia? And why is it Chinas fault when something happens in Sudan.
quote:
The Chinese - who now buy half of all Sudan's oil - have happily provided armoured vehicles, aircraft and millions of bullets and grenades in return for lucrative deals. Indeed, an estimated £1billion of Chinese cash has been spent on weapons.
How is it China’s fault? Again, does China sell this by force?
quote:
As well as enticing hundreds of thousands to settle in Africa, they have even shipped Chinese prisoners to produce the goods cheaply.
Can they find more silly excuse to demonize China?
quote:
In Kenya, for example, only ten textile factories are still producing, compared with 200 factories five years ago, as China undercuts locals in the production of 'African' souvenirs
How is it China fault? That is basic rule of competition.
quote:
Where will it all end? As far as Beijing is concerned, it will stop only when Africa no longer has any minerals or oil to be extracted from the continent.
And what is wrong with that. Economy works based on demand and suppy. If supply ends, there is no reason China to be there and what is wrong with that?
|
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
|
|
|
toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2010 : 02:39:48
|
Turk, I read what you write, so basically the West is jelous of China ? I think that the report Appeared to indicate that China was trying to colonise Africa and use African people as almost a slave culture to enrich China,it is accepted now that colonisation of countries is no longer politically correct, but the Chinese being inscrutable probably won't worry about that, further more the Chinese now have MONEY and they want to buy things,but things are getting more and more expensive for the Chinese, Why ? labour costs,so as to cut costs employ Africans at low wages.
Your dissection of the article shows sour grapes on behalf of the West, I have to admit that.
The AVERAGE African has very little choice of who to work for you work for the people who pay you money, a little is better than nothing ! |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
|
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2010 : 03:34:51
|
Europe and west in general is declining, east is on rise. This is so obvious. Obviously west is angry because they are on losing side.
Africa does not much power to resist China. They can't resist to anyone. China is not at fault. Everyone has interests. China is doing nothing illegal, there is no colonization, there is no slavery. Africa is too weak. They can't resist. No one is going to worry about you. No one will sorry for you. You got to take care of yourself. Africa must focus on development, economic and social development. Nothing is free. If they want democracy, wealth, human rights, freedom, these are not free. You got to pay the price. Nothing will be offered in the silver plate. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
|
|
|
toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2010 : 12:23:26
|
| Turk,your thoughts make sense,I think that Africans have a big problem in that they fail to see the bigger picture and live only for today ,this applies to other nations as well,MOST of the Millions in Africa are uneducated,underfed,and understimulated, SOME Africans exploit their own country and countrymen and grab BIG money, as exists now and MOST Africans think about themselves and those close to them only to get survival.More developed countries want africa's resources and as in ALL business want them as cheaply as they can,and employ any dirty and corrupt tricks that they can think of.Answers ? if we are correct in what we think turk, there are none,it will take God to change things if he wants to, otherwise things will stay as they are. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
|
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2010 : 13:15:04
|
I do not think west, its economic system, its political system a model for Gambia. Gambia needs to look elsewhere for a model that fits them. More you developed, more you have power to deal with others.
|
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
|
|
|
toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2010 : 14:43:11
|
Turk that's only part of the problem,Africas millions are ignorant of any other life than survival,they think if you have that you have everything,how often have you heard the phrase "Its Gods will" when there is a problem with their lives,hunger,starvation, illness,disability,in other words they as people are not capable of any sort of change only the Allmighty can bring about change,is that a recipe for advancement,development and good times ?
quote:
Originally posted by turk
I do not think west, its economic system, its political system a model for Gambia. Gambia needs to look elsewhere for a model that fits them. More you developed, more you have power to deal with others.
|
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
|
Edited by - toubab1020 on 04 Sep 2010 14:47:38 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
