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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jul 2007 : 20:09:31
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quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
Witchcraft and superstition are certainly primitive. They have no place in a modern society be it African or western. The kind of superstitious teaching received in this rituals do not arm you to succeed in the modern world but rather they may become a fetter to reason and enlightenment.
What is culture ?
Kayjatta, what is Superstition? please would like to know what you mean/ or how you define/understand it? |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2007 : 03:12:37
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Kondorong:
You can hold onto whatever you are comfortable with , however Santafara's and Mansasulu's comments below raise some very important issues for you to also reference. Also you might want to check out a post from FOROYAA on this forum entitled MYSTIFICATION OR DEMYSTIFICATION OF CULTURE.
A Greek philosopher once said that "you cannot step in the same river twice" , but a lot of wisdom is also found in Julius Nyerere's statement that "everything changes except God and fools".
Njucks:
I am not in for simple definitions , but if you look at Santafara's head post (at the top of this page) that this near 42 year old man traveling from England to cassamance for "futampaff" (kasaye boyo) or whatever because he believes that he is been having bad omens as a result of him being a "solima", you will get a hint of what a superstition is .
But if it serves your purpose , superstition might be described as " an irrational belief that is not supported by facts". |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2007 : 14:52:20
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kayatta , what a lot of people are comfuse about is the role of culture in a religious society .there are some african societies that can't distinquish between what is religion and what is cultural.religion in essence ways to worship the true one God.religion came to give a clear path to mankind in properly knowing their lord and maker. our cultures some times hinder us from accurately understanding our spritual needs. but in general ,culture and religion can go hand in hand. where our cultures and our faith colid ,this is are instances we need to be aware of .like the issue at hand. who will say that it is culturally and spritually ok to have a mix setting of males and females and even married couples can do what the west call wive swap ? this things happen in nyaka boyo jamboris. what are the negative consiqences of this immoral acts ? we shouldn't continue to comfuse our like of certain things and then continue to blame our forefathers acceptance of islam or christianity .still all arround the world cultures adapt and reposition .bad cultures need to be do away with. not every jola accept this traditions and they are within their rights to shoun it .i will recommed a liitle book by DR Bilala philips concerning what is islam and what is culture .the title of the book is call the clash of civilisations.in the book a look at several cultures are made and how islam impact on those respective cultures .our african culture of not giving the husband's last name to his wive is even supported by islam. a woman in africa use to maintain there family names ,but now our educated few like to give their last names to the wive. islam is against that.a women have her owm unique family ,let her maintain her family name.
secondly our traditional wedding occassions are not in contradiction with religion ,olny when fornications and adultry are taking place in the name of weddings those it become contradictory. secondly our naming ceremonies are more cultural than religious .this is again not in violation of islam ,but where people go at every lenght to spend tens of thausnads of dalasis just to create name for them is haram.islam clearly is against name seeking or pride.what many of us do is more for show than sincerity. when we boast ,we make other inconvenient ,even the semester attitude is fact to that.
culture and religion can go hand in hand without disturbing or harming each other. but in life there are limitations to every thing.
i can bring forward some cultural practices that are clearly indecent but i will certainly harm some other peoples pride ,and god knows that is not my intention.
music ,which is some thing engrave in our cultures are permitted in some instances ,like weddings.but for us to say we abandon our culture for islam and christianity is wrong notion.
even the west abandon certain things they use to do .they have move on .we don't need to abandon our cultures but we need to be bold enough to choose what we can retain and the ones we can do away with. islam did not eradicate all the arab cultutures ,each arab country have there own disticnt culture ,some of them are inline with islam ,just like ours. but we should not go on writing anti-religious slogans just to justify our feelings. religion is for the eternal soul ,culture is for the present ,let us make them work hand in hand .
kondo was being diplomatic , and i respect that baba. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2007 : 22:45:14
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quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
Njucks:
I am not in for simple definitions ........... that this near 42 year old man traveling from England to cassamance for "futampaff" (kasaye boyo) or whatever because he believes that he is been having bad omens as a result of him being a "solima", you will get a hint of what a superstition is .
But if it serves your purpose , superstition might be described as " an irrational belief that is not supported by facts".
..................The kind of superstitious teaching received in this rituals do not arm you to succeed in the modern world but rather they may become a fetter to reason and enlightenment.
well i dont agree wih you. i personally dont see the difference between the gentleman flying from England to casamance for a ritual and the River Nile being split open so that the Children of Isreal can cross into safety or an old Hindu man believing that he was a sheep in his previous life!!!!! just as millions of people of whatever religion believe in spirits, jinns etc. Have you seen a spirit before ?
you can call it superstition, others might call it christianity or religion!!! in any case millions believe that these teaching (which carry moral issues with them) are essential to modern living.
i think you will agree with me that the real tool to survive in our modern world is SCIENCE. those who understand/have/use technology will enjoy better standards of living and survive to the next stage.
imagine if there was a deadly global plague, the most vulnerable will be those without the capacity to resist it, they will not live to tell. |
Edited by - njucks on 26 Jul 2007 22:53:56 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2007 : 09:04:23
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Njucks , was it the River Nile or the Red sea that "split " for Moses and the Israelites ? That story is thousands of years of historical account.It seems well settled that Moses and his people did flee Egypt across the desert , but whether at any point in history a sea will "split open" for anybody is up to you to believe.
Whether I have seen a spirit before ? No I have not , have you seen one ? Science is only one of the tools that can help one survive and suceed in today's world. |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2007 : 18:54:11
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quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
Kondorong:
A Greek philosopher once said that "you cannot step in the same river twice" , but a lot of wisdom is also found in Julius Nyerere's statement that "everything changes except God and fools".
May i also add the african proverb that its only a fool whose tomatoes are sold to him. A sailor who has no destination in mind, any wind is good. If you do not value what you are then perhaps you woke up on the wrong side of history.
I am not ashamed of my culture and infact i am proud of it. I am proud of being an African and proud of my heritage. I am disappointed that for most african intellectuals, progress means giving up their african heritage. This is what Dr. Ali Mazuri calls the "....dilema of an african intellectual...".
I think you are taking Nyere out of context. A person who keeps changing all the time is a sign of neurological anomalies. Consistency is a mark of maturity. Anyway, a drowning man will hang unto a straw.
Its not bad to change but you cannot change your "critical operating tasks" (COT) if i may borrow a phrase from students of organisational behaviour.
Good luck Mr. Chameloen. Keep on changing all the time. |
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2007 : 20:20:33
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quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
.........It seems well settled that Moses and his people did flee Egypt across the desert , but whether at any point in history a sea will "split open" for anybody is up to you to believe.
Whether I have seen a spirit before ? No I have not , have you seen one ? Science is only one of the tools that can help one survive and suceed in today's world.
thats precisely my point. there are more people on the planet who doubt if Moses even existed in the first place let alone fled through a split sea/river. the point is, every one of us has the right to believe in whatever we think makes us a better person or eases our mind. be it a man flying to Casamance, he's not wrong in doing so.
if science is not the ONLY tool, then superstition could be one another tool for some, for others its religion which ever works. |
Edited by - njucks on 27 Jul 2007 20:23:23 |
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BornAfrican
United Kingdom
119 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2007 : 03:53:05
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Kayjatta,
In his book “The Africans, A triple heritage”, professor Mazrui talked about modernization and westernization. On page 201 of the book, he pointed out how Africa’s institutions are built on foreign ideologies and as a result, they never function to benefit us. The end result is mayhem.
In your posting, you wrote:
“In that book Mazrui went to great pains to distinguish "modernization" and "westernization". We as Africans do not deserve to live today like our ancestors did hundreds of years ago. We don't have to use the mortar and the pestle, we do not have to eat with our bare hands, we do not have to squat under the cow every morning to draw the milk by hand, we do not have to practice witchcraft and believe in superstitions. Are these what you guys call culture?”
It seems you confuse modernization and westernization. If we modernize the way we eat or milk cows, the basic way of doing it will still be there and will always be reminiscent of a particular African way of life(culture). We might develop tools to do these tasks but the tools will still reflect the origins of the tasks. Chinese have always eaten with chop sticks. The chop sticks today are not as they were some 2000 years ago. The design evolved but yet still, the chop stick is the chop stick. The Chinese didn’t abandon it for a fork and knife. They modernized it and even exported the culture to the western hemisphere. Today, it is common to find Europeans eating with chop sticks not only in Chinese restaurants but in their homes. Because we abandon a lot, in presentday Gambia, it is hard to find "kalamaa" (calabash spoon/ladle), among tribes to which it is indegneous.
The same goes with the “kasayeboyo”. Why can’t we educate people who still retain this precious way of life (culture) on ways to modernize the “kasayeboyo” rather than damning them? Why can’t we educate them about the economics and the health and safety issues that go along it? Surely, with education, people’s attitudes towards it will change. They will spend wisely, and they will consider the health risks of some activities that go along it, thus, the culture will remain with us.
Here in England, there are music festivals where people go only for sex, but this despicable behavior, on a television screen will look more fashionable to the young African eyes than the Kasaye boyo. You know why? We are not modernized, we are westernized.
All this comes down to the inferiority complex in the Africans. African’s are made to look inferior by the foreign ideologies that plagued us for centuries. We were made to ditch our beliefs, our languages and many other things. The Manding Empire for instance had its own alphabets but the African was so foolish to drop this precious gift (written language) for Eurasian languages.
Kasaye boyo is not primitive. It is part of our culture. Our way of life (culture) is dictated by the structures around us, whenever there is a change in these structures,we don’t have to abandon our culture to suit the desires of these dictating structures. all we need to do is adjust in order to move in sync. we don't have to embrace western way of life (culture) in order to exist. |
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Edited by - BornAfrican on 28 Jul 2007 11:35:49 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2007 : 10:25:37
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Kondorong:
You should not call people names , that is not part of our "culture"  . Besides you should try to answer my original question whether you were a by-stander, spectator or participant?
BornAfrican:
Nobody said that kaseyeboyo os primitive. Kaseyeboyo per se is acceptable and seems to have health benefits . However , the witchcraft and superstitious practices that are chracteristic of many kaseyeboyo are primitive in my view and should not have any place in today's society because they do not help our progress , rather they hinder our progress.
A culture that is ruled by bad omens , jinns , spirits and all kinds of "domma" is a long way to go in terms of preparedness for the kind of development we are envisoning for our country.
Njucks:
You have some very good points. People can believe in whatever they are comfortable with. In fact , one reason cultural practices persist is that they serve as a point of reference for many people. Without culture , many people will be completely lost and disfunctional.And it is largely this conscious or unconscious fear of losing one's sanity or self identity that makes people desparately cling to "useless" cultural practices.
We should not and may be cannot abandon all that we have , we have a rich heritage , but we must not be afraid to embrace new methods and practices that will prosper us. If Africa must develop , then we Africans must not remain fixated in history , we must be ready to march towards our glorious destination not alone but as part of the entire humanity. We cannot be a "cultural island" entire by itself. We African's cannot enter the 21 st. century with the fetters of witchcraft and superstition. We have to match political and economic change with cultural change in order to transform the condition of our continent. |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2007 : 12:42:34
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| BornAfrican , it looks like your posting didn't attach. Atleast I didn't see it. |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2007 : 21:33:41
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quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
We Africans cannot enter the 21 st. century with the fetters of witchcraft and superstition. We have to match political and economic change with cultural change in order to transform the condition of our continent.
i agree totally. often most africans are afraid of change especially if its coming from Europe. this is partly due to historical reasons. But in reality the world is converging towards not just modernity but a universal civilisation and this was perhaps what Senghor was trying to point out through Negritude. Our cultural contribution in this global civilisation!
Western civilisation, to some extent and in all fairness has achieved what many isolated civilisations in south america, africa, asia etc tried but could not achieve. That is to touch and influence every part of the Earth, ofcourse at great cost in terms of human life.
But the truth is, despite all this it offers people great opportunities. NO BODY IS MORE MODERN THAN THE JAPANESE, BUT NOBODY ELSE IS JAPANESE EXCEPT THE JAPANESE. This to me is the trick .
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2007 : 07:30:47
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| Good job Njucks , I just have to agree with you. You got the idea. |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2007 : 12:26:19
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In his Science of Logic and in The Phenomenology of Spirit as indeed in all his works, Hegel, the nineteenth-century German philosopher, often talks of the notions of being and becoming, making the distinction between Being in itself and Being for itself, notions which Jean Paul Sartre plays with in Being and Nothingness, further talking about Being for others. We can think of Being in itself as when an entity exists objectively undifferentiated as opposed to being for itself when it becomes aware of itself as an entity.
Language is what most helps in the movement of a community from the state of being in itself to a state of being for itself and this self-awareness is what gives the community its spiritual strength to keep on reproducing its being as it continually renews itself in culture, in its power relations, and in its negotiations with its entire environment. It is its culture which enables a community to imagine and re-imagine itself in history. And that is why a culture is to a community what a flower is to a plant.
from Research in African Literatures Volume 31, Number 1
Europhonism, Universities, and the Magic Fountain: The Future of African Literature and Scholarship1
Ngugi wa Thiong'o
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2007 : 12:57:24
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Thanks Njucks for bringing up Frederick Hegel and Wa Thiongo. Both men , though centuries apart , have influenced human civilization a lot. Wa Thiongo , as a writer , is a big advocate of African originality ; specifically arguing for the writing of African literature ( an important mirror of African culture) in indigenous African languages as opposed to Chinua Achebe who apparently does not see a need for that since Africans largely write and speak English and other European languages in a hybridized form.
Anyone who appreciates Karl Marx's teachings of economics and sociology will perhaps not fail to recognize the influence of Hegelian thought .
This is just to take delight in the mention of these great names. Thanks again for spicing the discussion. |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2007 : 13:35:18
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| Sorry , I meant to write JANKO instead of Njucks. |
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