 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 14:09:50
|
Turkey Constitutional Change
Strongman
|
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
|
|
Momodou
Denmark
11828 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 15:25:37
|
| There is fear that Turkey might turn into a radical Islamist state because of the strong ties with Iran and Hamas. What do you say to that Turk? |
A clear conscience fears no accusation - proverb from Sierra Leone |
 |
|
|
toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 15:28:15
|
That should be a great topic for you turk,you can make that last for pages and pages,although not many Gambians have visited Turkey,or have they is there a large Gambian community there ?
|
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
|
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 15:35:51
|
Touby
Your simplistic approach make you very narrow minded and shallow person and it limits your intellectual ability. World politics does not require a visit or being in a country. You can discuss about N. Korea's diplomacy even you are not there. You fail to see how much common Turkey and Gambia have. Both non-arab Muslims. Very similar cultural experience due to the religion of Islam. Instead of seeking a model for Gambia in west, Gambia could benefit from Turkey's political history to implement democratic institution and economic development. Turkey, as the only 'Muslim' and 'Democratic' country is the best model for Gambia and other Muslim countries to learn from. Instead of learning from UK, Turkey would be better example as Turkey's socio-economic and cultural realities much more closer to Gambia than UK.
Touby, since you are not interested in and no clue about politics, it maybe better for you not to post anything in politics. You embarrass yourself. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
|
|
|
Momodou
Denmark
11828 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 16:02:59
|
| Turkey had been ruled by generals and judges since 1960 so I don’t think there is anything The Gambia can learn from them regarding fundamental human rights, the rule of law and democracy. I believe the only thing we can learn from them is repressive rule and this is probably what their military instructors are currently doing in the Gambia. |
A clear conscience fears no accusation - proverb from Sierra Leone |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 16:09:48
|
Momodou
Some of the fears maybe on valid base but they are intensionally exaggerated. Yes, the government of Turkey has Islamic roots. But so far, they have not done significantly change Turkey towards Islam. There are some unrest in Muslims because of Kayjatta/French type of 'Stalinist secular' pressure on ordinary Muslims. The hijab ban on students at University. I see this from the Psychological sociology perspective. If you put pressure on human, they react. If today, the hijab ban is lifted, less girls will wear hijab I guarantee. As a liberal person, I don't care about hijab and the women in my family do not wear hijab and I have no problem with it. But i feel these ladies who were banned wearing hijab from the universities. That is very discriminative. And I feel screaming about this non-sense ban. There is no question that there are radical people in Turkey, but they are fed by the secular pressure on Muslims. Now, I see Muslim youth more radical youth at universities. When I was younger, there were less. My theory is secular pressure causing radicalism to rise in turkey.
The above is pretty much describe how Turk's Islamist feeling in society. Secularist, army, elite, aristocracy, intellectuals pushing Muslims to hard for their fears, and this make Islamist more vocal. Turkey is a conservative country, we are 99 percent Muslim, but that did not stop our current Islamist Government to follow some liberal politics to
- Start EU accession talks
- Trade with EU as a major trade partner
- Give cultural rights to Kurds
- Support Israel (until very recently)
This is cultural and social dimension. What about political dimension?
I said 'intensionally exaggeration', because starting Israel and USA, want Turkey do not want Turkey to have relationship with East as Turkey has one of the most significant geo-strategic country in the region. They want Turkey to be on their side as there is a confrontation between west and Iran. They have bad intension to spread the fear and make Turkey to make a tough choice. Turkey is Muslim and in the region, it is natural to have relationship with the region. Let me quickly review your example of Iran and Hamas.
Iran. We have a border drawn with Iran since the agreement of Kasri-Shrin 1639 I think. For almost 400 years, we did not have any conflict with Iran. Iran has more than 20 Million Turkish speaking Azeri in Iran. Turkish language was significantly influenced by Persian language and culture. While they are Islamic republic, we are a democratic country, but we have good relationship. We have good trade. And there is no reason for Turkey to be enemy of Iran. What Israel and USA and partly EU wants us to be enemy for Iran for their interests. That is unfair. The reason for Iran opposition by west is because of Israel. Israel has powerful lobby in west and they put pressure on western government to put pressure on Iran due to Israel interests. Iran does not attack any country in the region and their border has not change for centuries. The only war was started by western proxy Saddam after Islamic revolution in Iran.
Turkey has had strong ties with Iran for 400 years. Why should we change just because of Israel.
For Hamas. First of all, I do not recognize Hamas as terrorist organization. They are elected party in Gazza. They are government. When they fight with Israel, they are legitimate security forces, it maybe called Militia. And without Hamas Israel can't have peace with Palestine. World denies that. Without dialog with Hamas, there would not be any process in peace. Turks have strong ties with the local people. May I remind you, JSalem was part of Ottoman Empire until 1917?
Turkey recently has growth economically significantly. They are number one in European Economic Zone just behind Germany, UK, France, Italy and Spain in GDP. They have the biggest army in Europe, second biggest in NATO after USA. So increasing confidence, they want to play larger role in the region. With increasing confidence, they are now more vocal on opposition to Israel's apartheid type of politics. I am reading Israeli newspapers, most are very disturbed with Turkey's increasing influence in Middle East, they now want to accuse Turkey becoming Islamic radical. Turkey's critical position on Israel is not due to Islam, it is due to its increasing power economically, politically and strategically.
So the question is why should Turkey make Iran and Hamas enemy for someone else? That is the question.
|
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 16:17:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by Momodou
Turkey had been ruled by generals and judges since 1960 so I don’t think there is anything The Gambia can learn from them regarding fundamental human rights, the rule of law and democracy. I believe the only thing we can learn from them is repressive rule and this is probably what their military instructors are currently doing in the Gambia.
I disagree. Your analysis is wrong. You are just looking at the one point and have conclusion. You are not looking the process, the transition and from 1960s to now. That is true Turkey had been dominated by General in politics. But saying Turkey is ruled by General is incorrect. The process of Turkey's democracy is a good model for Gambia. Turkey's experience would be model for Gambia. Gambians do not understand that transition to democracy will be smooth. It is process. Long process. The developing democracy requires social, economic and cultural change. Gambia will not be democratic first than its socio-economic reality change. It is a process of transformation in economy, social, culture that feed the democratic transition.
Most western government has colonial history, economic wealth, high educated population and they are based on judeo-christian tradition. Gambia has no similarity with west 'historically', 'culturally' and 'socially'. Turkey is much more closer model. Turkey is a success story. You said 1960s turkey was ruled by general. But not now since 1990s. The process from 1960s to now is a learning process for gambia no? Can you envision Gambia to have full democracy in 30 years. If you envision Gambia to have democracy in Turkish level, that is very optimistic scenario in my opinion.
Personally, I do not expect Gambia to have full democracy in 100 years there is no economic, cultural and social development. With a good realistic plan, improving the literacy, wealth, educated society, better economy, there is a realistic chance the next generation in 20-40 years to have full functioning democratic system.
The constitution change approved by referendum yesterday has the piece. New constitution change bring this.
If any army official did a coup, will be tried in civil judiciary. And those who did coup in 1980s now can be tried in the court. Also, now there are more than 100 soliders are being tried in the court for even 'planning coup'.
Gambia is showing very similar pattern like Turkey. Jammeh is came to power after coup. It has very similar realities. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 14 Sep 2010 16:26:44 |
|
|
|
Senegambia
175 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 16:53:43
|
I think Turk has made his points strongly and I for one agree with most of what you just said. I have been lucky enough to visit Turkey and within a short period tried to connect with a few locals, went for a friday prayer (something I rarely do in my home town) and so on. Like Turk just stated, I too was like "Gambia has a lot to learn from Turkey"... In very many areas that I don't need to go into. The freedom in Turkey today is something we can dream about. That their democracy has it's faults is something an optician I met there confirmed to me. But still there is an atmosphere of progress, relative peace and stability that countries like Gambia lack!
It's clear that international politics is complex. I hope Turkey will continue to nourish good neighborliness between them and Iran and reject any external voice in that matter. Also, I also hope they will continue to engage all Palestinians equally, whether Hamas or Fatah....
|
Tesito
|
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 17:17:24
|
Turkey's democracy is not perfect but trend is good. There is no question there are issues. Particularly in religious freedom and citizen cultural rights i.e. Kurdish. But It is improving. There are still areas of problem but who don't have political problem.
- Secular vs Conservatives
- Military vs Civil
- Executive vs Judiary
- Kurdish Nationalist vs Turkish Nationalist
- Lack of freedom of press, human rights etc.
- Human rights etc.
But things are improving. It is a process. And this process could be very useful for Gambia as Gambia's realities were/are closer than its realities to UK. The democracy in west has roots to Renaissance, industrial revolution, christian-judeo values, slavery, capitalism, colonization. Gambia had non of these process in its history. Turkey's becoming republic starts 1920s. After many interruptions coups, economic and social process, it is now the best governed, most democratic, secular Muslim country. All this was done in 80 years. It is one of the unique country where people combined traditional values like Islam and modern western values, democracy.
On a note for Fatah. Fatah is already supported by Arabs. Fatah is already talking to Israel and supported by USA as well. Excluding Hamas from the peace process is the biggest obstacle for the process. There must be someone who talked to Hamas. Hamas must not be isolated. Turkey's role to have access to Hamas is important.
p.s. Since I changed my avatar, I see positive energy coming from Senegambia.
|
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 14 Sep 2010 17:52:22 |
|
|
|
Momodou
Denmark
11828 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 18:21:04
|
It is not me who fears about Turkey becoming a radical Islamic state but that is what is stated in one of the editorials today. They are saying that the constitutional changes were done because of Turkey's desire of being accepted into the EU.
Of course there are many areas were The Gambia can learn from Turkey but those areas are certainly not fundamental human rights, the rule of law and democracy. I never said that Gambia should be a copycat of western democracy either so don't put words in my mouth.
With its shortcomings, I think we have a wonderful constitution if only everyone including the president respects the document fully. This document was not written by anyone but Gambians so we don’t have to copy anyone’s democracy. Fundamental human right are universal and does not matter whether one is poor or rich, so one does not have to wait until there is democracy before these rights are enforced and respected.
|
A clear conscience fears no accusation - proverb from Sierra Leone |
|
|
|
mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 18:45:14
|
Totally agree with Momodou. I believe Turkey is chasing a mirage in so far acceptance into the EU goes. Full acceptance will never happen in my opinion just because it is a muslim country. I think its myopic of Turkey's current leaders and society in general to think that it can be fully accepted into the EU without a fundamental change in Turkey cultural and religious roots.
All of these concession will be made, some of them good and others a case of bending backwards for nothing. Turning towards the EU/WEST will lead to nowhere. I believe Turkey is in a position to lead not chasing a mirage. There is nothing in the West, if you dont believe that wait until China fully awakes. What do you do then gravitate towards the east? |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 19:54:47
|
Then, I disagree with the editorial. The motivation of constitutional change has nothing to die with EU. Let me tell you why.
The leader of JDP, Erdogan has been dealing with two oppositions which are not even political party. One is Army and the other Judiciary. The constitution change had two impact. One was dealing with Army. Now, the constitution states that if any army official, any coup attempts will be tried in civil courts, instead of military courts. The second, supreme courts like constitution court, administrative courts etc, the judges will be assigned via parliament. Previously it was controlled by secular elite.
The amendments had also some changes related to EU accession, but the real objective was to curb the influence of Army and Judicial influence. That is indirectly help EU accession to as EU did not like army influence in Turkey too. But the real intension was Erdogan to deal with the generals. For now, it is great victory for Erdogan.
I am glad you think Gambia can learn from Turkish experience. Turkey has relatively better human rights and rule of law and democracy in Gambia. It is great example how to implement these values in a 'muslim' country and 'relatively poorer' nation. I say, considering the economic, social situation I think it is extremely difficult to improve Gambian's democracy, human rights and rule of democracy. They should have more realistic plan and agenda.
Having constitution does not mean much, if no one applies the constitution in real life. That is where the short comings about under developed nations. Socio-economic situation, education level, money are biggest obstacles for having good government system.
quote:
Fundamental human right are universal and does not matter whether one is poor or rich, so one does not have to wait until there is democracy before these rights are enforced and respected.
Everyone deserves that, but 'being able to have human rights not universal. It has a lot to do with many factors Gambia is lacking. That is fundamental difference between me and many like you about how to improve the government system in Gambia.
Mansa
For me EU is not big deal. And now many Turks, EU is not big deal either. It was big deal before, not anymore. Turkey is already improving economically and politically whether we have EU or not. We do realize our potential in our values. That is the idea of Turkey is using all historical and cultural connection with east. They already have highest GDP growth non only in EU, in the world. The trades between Syria, Iran, Russia and other Turkish Republics are good. Turkey has been already between east and west anyway. It will continue to do so. Turkey is between east and west, it is natural we have relationship with both sides.
Mansa
And I don't see them as concession. I agree with the constitution change to curb the influence of Army and secular elite. It is not for EU, it is good for Turkey. And most of the changes done for EU also improving the law to better standards. Turkey now discover its power and advantage having access to both east and west. I think they are on the track.
I agree with West on decline. That is why I like the idea of having Turkey to be open to both east and west. We have been already in a region between Europe, Africa and Asia for last 1000 years.
|
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 15 Sep 2010 09:20:10 |
|
|
|
Momodou
Denmark
11828 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 20:15:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by turk
Everyone deserves that, but 'being able to have human rights not universal. It has a lot to do with many factors Gambia is lacking. That is fundamental difference between me and many like you about how to improve the government system in Gambia.
You are quite right, there is a fundamental difference between you and us with regards how we want to improve the government system in the Gambia. We have our umbilical cords buried in Gambian soil and you don't. |
A clear conscience fears no accusation - proverb from Sierra Leone |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 20:20:46
|
That is where my daughter comes in.
|
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
|
|
|
njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2010 : 03:00:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by turk
.......Turkey's experience would be model for Gambia. Gambians do not understand that transition to democracy will be smooth. It is process. Long process. Gambia has no similarity with west 'historically', 'culturally' and 'socially'.
.
Turk i was almost going to agree with you, but i think Momodou has a point.
firstly, Europeans have been in The Gambia for more than 400 years. in 400 years, obviously there must have influenced us culturally, historically and even socially.
you dont have to have any similarity with the West. japan doesnt ? Gambians more than you think, understand democracy more thank you think.
It is a process that started in the 1934 with Edward Small, from a labour movement, to representatation in a Colonial Legislature, to extending voting rights to rural folk (i.e. all gambians), to independence in 1965, 1970 constitution, to becoming a republic, a violent attempted coup in 1981, a successful bloodless coup in 1994,to a new contitution in 1996 etc.
Gambians (both male and female) have been voting in the gambia since the 1950s.
it is indeed a process that continues ad infinitum, like in all countries. It was the same in the US, from independence to civil rights (200 yrs) so Turkey's experience might be too short to call it a success.
Democracy cannot be simply summarised into a few issues. in some countries freedom of religious expression is a major challenge in others it's press freedom others freedom of expression. In many instances, the greatest proponents of Democracy keep silent and quiet if their interests are at stake. this is the case with China. Ofcourse its everyone's biggest trading partner although there have no elections, etc
i do agree that economically you are doing very well and one can learn a lot from your experience especially in tourism. However note that Greece was once doing well too. Economic development and sustaining it is a challenge for us all. |
Edited by - njucks on 15 Sep 2010 03:02:51 |
|
|
|
kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2010 : 08:01:56
|
"Kayjatta/French type of 'Stalinist secular' pressure on ordinary Muslims", Said Turk.
 I like that, Turk. I will join the debate later... |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| Bantaba in Cyberspace |
© 2005-2024 Nijii |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
