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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Sep 2010 : 09:16:28
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quote:
firstly, Europeans have been in The Gambia for more than 400 years. in 400 years, obviously there must have influenced us culturally, historically and even socially.
Historically and linguistically, there has been influence, but that did not translate the progress in democracy as much as it should have. Even, there may have been some influence, without economic and social development, existence of western influence did not have much outcome in improving democracy. While Turkey became a democracy in 1920 after bloody WW1, they have started democratization process partially in late 1800s. 1876, first time, a political party established and a prime minister has taken some of the political power from the Ottoman Sultan. 1908, the political party called, ‘Ittihat and Terrakki’ was leading in Ottoman parliament and the authority of Sultan was decreasing. But the process was too slow until, 1920, the Turkey declared full democracy after independence war and lots of blood.
I am not sure, if Japan is a comparable example. Japan was very developed country even in 1800s, and they were independent. Their progress to western type of democracy has started 1800s too. One of the Japanese emperors has sent Japanese students, intellectuals to Europe to study west to understand their system. There was a will to change. In 1920s, Japan had a industry to build car, railway and their magical economic has already began long ago. The development of economy is an engine for a nation to progress. Gambian lack of economic development is/was the one of the most important obstacle for slow progress or deadlock of democratic process.
Also, Turkey has been part of the history of Europe since 1000 as a neighbor. While it was not European/and Christian. It was a neighbor of Europe since Turks take over Roman Empire in 1453.
quote:
It is a process that started in the 1934 with Edward Small, from a labour movement, to representatation in a Colonial Legislature, to extending voting rights to rural folk (i.e. all gambians), to independence in 1965, 1970 constitution, to becoming a republic, a violent attempted coup in 1981, a successful bloodless coup in 1994,to a new contitution in 1996 etc. Gambians (both male and female) have been voting in the gambia since the 1950s.
You see, the little process was started by British. The voting right was not ‘taken’ like Turkish example, it was ‘given’. But in any case, Like Gambia, Turkey too had bumpy roads especially with coups. In 1960, 1970 (It was more like ultimatum and 1980 there were three coups. 1993, there was another ultimatum, at the end, the government had to resign after pressure by the army.
The difference between these years, between Gambia and Turkey was “economic and social progress”. Turkey while improving democracy, human rights etc. It had economic development that helped social development that translates improvement in democracy. I think, the biggest missing element in the process for Gambia was economic and social developments were very slow. These are engines for political development. I have been saying this for a long time, without wealth, social development Gambia will NOT be able to make progress in its political system.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 15 Sep 2010 09:23:50 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2010 : 09:25:17
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quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
"Kayjatta/French type of 'Stalinist secular' pressure on ordinary Muslims", Said Turk.
 I like that, Turk. I will join the debate later...
Ha ha. Your name has a placed in political science as a reference. Be happy about it. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2010 : 17:28:59
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| Turk the reason I use the word concessions is that Turkey is allowing EU countries to set what those better standards are. All I am stating is that Turkey should be looking inwards as far as setting those standards. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2010 : 19:10:48
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
........You see, the little process was started by British. The voting right ............. ‘ it was ‘given’.
turk, i dont think they voluntarily started the process, far from it. and it certainly was not given, it was earned albeit peacefully. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2010 : 19:41:42
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Mansa.
Thanks for the clarification.
Maybe using the word 'standard' is not good. It is 'law' they want to comply with. But there are also some economic indicators, TUrkey needs to meet as well. For example, the budget deficit can't be more than specific percentage of GDP.
During accession talks, here is what happens.
- Candidate country need to change its law to comply with the EU law. For example;
- The constitutional change in this case 'trying Army officials on Civil Courts rather than Military Courts' for the crimes they have committed other than performing their professional duty.
- Turkey needed to change constitution to comply with the principle of EU law that Army is under authority of civil rule principle.
If Turkey wants to enter EU, it needs to comply with their law. This is not only for Turkey, it is for any EU member. That is why Accession talks could take 20 years. lol. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2010 : 19:46:53
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quote:
turk, i dont think they voluntarily started the process, far from it. and it certainly was not given, it was earned albeit peacefully.
I don't know the history of Gambia like you do. So, I believe what you say. However, what I was trying to point that:
If blood spilled for something, one appreciates it and genuinely believe in it. During the independence war before the new Turkish Republic was established, my grand father used to tell me that, many villages were full of families without men in the house because they were shaheed. He lost his father too. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2010 : 20:21:14
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| Who cares about EU |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 15 Sep 2010 20:21:34 |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2010 : 14:49:31
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| Regional leader |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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kisley
United Kingdom
214 Posts |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2010 : 03:51:15
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| Yes it is. That is the most stupid ban in the world. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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kisley
United Kingdom
214 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2010 : 10:44:28
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Thanks turk
Can I ask you another question?
"what does insulting Turkishness actually mean"? |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2010 : 13:12:02
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Turk has two meaning. One is racial/ethnic group name which refers the Turkic which refers the group of people from Siberia to Anatolia. The other is the 'name of the nationality/citizen' of the people of Turkey'. Insulting Turkishness means more like the insulting the institutions of the government for example parliament or the nationhood in general. See below
quote:
A person who publicly denigrates Turkishness, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey, shall be punishable by imprisonment of between six months and three years.
A person who publicly denigrates the Government of the Republic of Turkey, the judicial institutions of the State, the military or security organizations shall be punishable by imprisonment of between six months and two years.
In cases where denigration of Turkishness is committed by a Turkish citizen in another country the punishment shall be increased by one third.
Expressions of thought intended to criticize shall not constitute a crime.
Looks like I may be considered to have committed a crime by referring ban to be a 'stupid', lol.
While Turkey wants to became a EU nation but it still have the cultural influence from 'Turkic' and 'Islam'. Respect is very important. So any insult to anything that may refer the nation is bad even though it is part of freedom of speech. So your freedom of speech is limited, insult is not your freedom of speech according to their logic.. For example, in some country if one talks about your mother as a joke, you just laugh, ignore and tolerate. In Turkey you might be killed. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 22 Sep 2010 13:34:17 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2010 : 23:12:26
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| The president condemns youtube ban! |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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