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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Aug 2010 : 01:55:05
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My question to the constitution experts.
What does the constitution say about "citizen’s initiative" for constitutional reform or amendment?
“Constitutional amendments do not occur under normal circumstance”
Let me put it this way, the statement above is derived from common sense, based on personal observation, logical evaluation of similar conditions or circumstances. So it is not a “universal law” that constitutional amendments "only" occur under abnormal circumstances.
What I mean by `normal´ in this case, is for example, the period before the coup d’état. Am not saying there have not been constitutional amendments under the Kairaba era but they were not as abrupt as in 1994 –abnormal. Under normal circumstances, even whereas the ruling party is corrupt and uses unlawful means to remain in power, it does not openly say elections are irrelevant. Under normal circumstances the constitution plays an arbitrary roll or as a point of orientation when things are getting out of hand.
Abnormal in this sense is when events out of the ordinary prompt changes, like none-violent events, citizen’s initiative or other events that prompt constitutional reforms (there are many possible examples) The referendum that approved the present Gambian constitution was prompted by an abnormal circumstance. Another example is events that hastened a new constitution for Kenya, which was an important part of a power-sharing deal after the disputed election results. But of course that followed a lengthy struggle for a new constitution in Kenya, hence the twenty-four years of the rule of the all powerful Moi presidency. Now am not saying Kenya’s situation is a carbon copy of the Gambian one but there are significant similarities. One major difference is that the united opposition leaders struck a deal of power sharing where one would have the presidency whiles the other Prime minister, a position to be created after wining the election. Whiles NADD was not able to pass the first stage of agreeing on a flag bearer much more other details as to how to concretely bring about a genuine democratic environment.
What is hindering opposition unity in Gambia? Surely not the constitution. What seems clear is that none of the opposition parties has confidence that it could win the elections on its own. Secondly, there is the fear that one might replace one authoritarian leader with another indicating a lack of trust; hence there is no guarantee that agreements would be fulfilled after elections. Exactly what happened in Kenya but they took it headlong then and there, and they are succeeding. They did not adhere to speculations, they acted. This clearly indicates that a problem is best dealt with on the spot, when it arises not before.
So, if the opposition unite to win an election, it would not matter if it is a Party-led unity or a merger a´la NADD the new president can’t be trusted as long as the constitution remains as it is. Either or the new parliament would be composed of candidates from all the parties in the union.Therefore it would not be easy for the newly elected president to highjack power as speculated.
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Well, I am not a legal expert, but it seems as military decrees do exist side by side with civilian legal order which is not completely thrown-out in some cases, there are examples of cases in Nigeria, Ghana concerning where to draw the line. So, despite the disruption to legal order, there is legal continuity.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2010 : 03:19:35
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Constitution does not change often. However, it could change any time. For example, it is usually after a coup, the new management feels obliged to change it because,
- They want to convince people that there would be a need for change that is why they made the coup.
- They want guarantee for the new leadership
- And there is genuine need for massive constitution change after the revolution because new administration has significant different ideology
There are changes in constitution as needed. Ordinary laws usually require the basic majority, but constitution may require two third or three quarters or referendum, because it requires bigger consensus. Constitutional amendments usually do not occur under normal circumstances, but it could occur if there is a need with required consensus even under normal circumstances.
What is hindering opposition unity in Gambia? Constitution does not prevent unity as a single reason. But Constitution does not help and does not give many options for political parties to have unity. I know it will be a repeat but obviously you did not appreciate the example I gave. For example, if there was a parliamentarian democracy, smaller parties having member in the parliament, still have power to be part of forming government as coalition relies on the every vote to form the government. They can have unity negotiation before or after the election.
Presidential system does not offer post election negotiation. Post election negotiation is very important because, political parties know their power. Everything is clear. Party A has 43 members, Party B has 44 and Part C has 10, than now we probably have the unity of Party C with ether Party B or Party A.
The reason I raised constitution because Presidential system, parties has very limited options. Since the power, especially executive power belongs to president, one man; the power can’t not be shared. Parties must have a NADD type of unity where they can share the power under one entity. Parties, can’t have unity as long as they are separate.
One option to have a non-partisan Presidential candidate, but that may be very difficult.
You are right, that there is no guarantee that agreements would be fulfilled after election, and that is due to lack of options by constitution. If there was a parliamentarian system, smaller parties still have power after the election as each member vote’s count to form the government. Can you see how constitution effects?
In my opinion, I repeated several times, Gambian is not ready for fully democratic system. It does not have infrastructure, experience and politicians do not have skills, experience and knowledge. I know I will be seen as arrogant saying this but, this is what I see. Especially when I read about UDP here or on the newspapers, which is the main opposition party, I have no confidence in them in terms of political skills to lead the nation.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 31 Aug 2010 11:49:02 |
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Janyanfara
Tanzania
1350 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2010 : 00:54:45
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ooooooooooooooh my God! I can never stop laughing.....
Am sure despite our mistrust of each other, we do share a common value and have common problems which with seriousness, am sure we can overcome. Jammeh has to go come 2011. So please oppositions lets forget some of our brothers in the forum who are trying to divert us from the real issues.
Dbaldeh and brother Momodou brought valid points and I can assure them all that UDP would have no choise but to be committed to such proposals and would no doubt be ready when ever other oppositions are prepared to put their trust in its leadership. No revolution comes without a price and as the Gambia is bigger than any indiviudual party or leadership, smaller parties need to cast away all their fears of mistrust as that only helps Jammeh and none of us. We both collectively want to see Jammeh go so we both have to make cercrifices. NADD failed because there were elements within who want the continuation of Jammeh dictatorship and the same elements are still using their praise singers to cast doubts amongst us.I strongly agree to a change in the constitution that would protect smaller parties and allow a viabrant democracy to take root in our small but beautiful country and as a UDP member, I laugh at certain commentators who tried to make jokes out of a house on fire bring water, no add more wood or cover the fire ect. That to me is laughable because they enjoy writing those comments and enjoyed it when people reply to it instead of the real issues.
"For the Gambia our homeland, let us strive and work and pray
that all may live in unity freedom and peace each day
let justice guide our action, towards our common goal......
............................................keep all great God of nations to the gambia ever true.!
Today Gambia should sing a different national anthem because all is not living in unity and there is no freem or peace each day ect. oh Gambia Oh Gambia! |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 13:36:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Janyanfara
..... NADD failed because there were elements within who want the continuation of Jammeh dictatorship and the same elements are still using their praise singers to cast doubts amongst us......
I can't digest your statements but gracefully respect your opinions!
dBaldeh hasn't forwarded any valid point but only making open (incomplete) statements or many unsubstantiated remarks to promote politics of discord, partisan and factionalism that appeased UDP militants. That's what you enjoying (with your laugh's) and compliment him together with Momodou quoted; "Dbaldeh and brother Momodou brought valid points and I can assure them all that UDP would have no choise but to be committed to such proposals and would no doubt be ready when ever other oppositions are prepared to put their trust in its leadership. "
The foregoing is exactly in wollof parlance; "raacha taye sa kanaam" instead of thinking in the spirit of SOLIDARITY FOR A COMMON GOAL!
Having appreciated and acknowledged that THERE IS A COMMON GOAL, THEN WHY SHOULD ANY PARTY HIJACK IT THERE ARE MANY OPTIONS FOR THE COMMON GOOD!
ON RATIONALE FOR NADD REFER ANOTHER GAMBIAN OPINION; courtesy of Jollof online news publish a letter What Gambia needs ahead of 2011 elections! under http://www.jollofnews.com/what-gambia-needs-ahead-of-2011-elections.html
PLEASE RE-VISIT OUR NATIONAL ANTHEM TO MAKE IT WORK AS A CONSTITUTION AND BASED ALL STRATEGIC POLICY GOALS AND TACTICAL MOVES ON THEM
WILL BE BACK ON OTHER PENDING OBSERVATIONS! |
Edited by - kobo on 02 Sep 2010 15:11:33 |
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toubab1020
12311 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 17:23:37
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Round and round in circles again, as we all know there is no beginning and certainly no end to a circle  still what ever makes you happy and excited is OK I suppose. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 02 Sep 2010 17:24:48 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 17:53:28
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turk, you did not answer my quetion;
My question to the constitution experts.
What does the constitution say about "citizen’s initiative" for constitutional reform or amendment?
- you don´t have to answer |
Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 01:02:49
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Gambia is limping on a crippled constitutional walking stick. Constitutionalism is DEAD in wholesome Gambian politics. Negligence on the part of Gambian opposition parties by permitting the seed of AFPRC germinate on the political space of the country is seriously flawing and lethal.
AFPRC is a poisonous political element to have developed into this monster. To restore proper democracy in Gambia requires refraining from voting with Yaya Jammeh in any political engagement. Yaya knows what is stake should he run out of votes.
By all means, any elections including Yaya as candidate will end up in him counting more votes. Unless the opposition wakes up from the slumber of sham elections with Yaya, Gambian politics will remain in shambles.
EXCLUSION OF YAYA JAMMEH FROM VOTING IS THE MOST CERTAIN WAY OF RESTORING PROPER ELECTIONS IN GAMBIA.
It does not stop there. All those holding for AFPRC have to be excluded too. |
Karamba |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 08:21:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Janko
turk, you did not answer my quetion;
My question to the constitution experts.
What does the constitution say about "citizen’s initiative" for constitutional reform or amendment?
- you don´t have to answer
Constitutional Amendment is a difficult task, Janko, largely because constitutions are meant to last and ensure stability. However, the need for frequent constitutional change as values change over time is reduced by "judicial review" [the power of the court to
(re)interpret the constitution and invalidate legislative and executive action].
The requirement for "citizens' initiated constitutional change" are stiff and differs in different countries and jurisdictions.
As usual, I don't know the procedure in the Gambia. What do I know about the Gambia? I often wonder ! However, generally the procedure may include several steps:
1. Initiation: A certain number (the number is determined by law)of qualified (eligible voters) citizens write a petition. Submit it to the Attorney General.
2. Signatories: A certain percentage of eligible voters, as determined by law, sign the petition. Submit it to the Attorney General.
3. Legislation: A certain percentage of lawmakers, as determined by law, endorse the pettiton. This part will be the biggest obstacle in the Gambia today.
4. Ballot: The petition now goes on the ballot during national elections or separately; and a certain percentage of the electorate (eligible voters), as determined by law, votes for the amendment.
5. The amendment then becomes law as announced at declaration of election result.
NOTE:
1. This procedure above is a general guideline. It will differ widely from one country to another and from one jurisdiction to another.
2. Kayjatta is not an attorney. This is not a legal advice. |
Edited by - kayjatta on 03 Sep 2010 08:43:13 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 09:23:04
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Janko
Are you asking for Gambia or in general? For example, in Turkey. The national assembly can change the constitution just like any other legislative process. But I think for constitutional change, there needs to be two third majority. The president can only reject the changes once and recommend changes, if Assembly accept the changes without any change second time, President can take constitution change to the Referendum where voters directly vote for constitution changes. There is no process for citizen to change constitution. I think in Gambia same, no citizen initiative.
For Gambia, I found this.
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CHAPTER XII AMENDMENT OF THE CONSTITUTION
Alternation of this (1) subject to the provisions of this section, an Act of the
Constitution National Assembly may alter his Constitution.
(2) Subject to subsection (4), a bill for an Act of the National
Assembly under this section shall not passed by the
National Assembly or presented to the President for assent
unless-
(a) before the first reading of the Bill in the National assembly, the Bill is published in at least two issues of the Gazette, the latest publication being not less than three months after the first, and the Bill is introduced into the National Assembly not earlier than ten days after the latest publication; and
(b) the Bill is supported on the second and third readings by the votes of not less than three quarters of all the members of the National assembly.
(3) If the President fails to assent within thirty days to a Bill
passed by the National assembly in accordance with
subsection (2), the Bill shall be returned to the Speaker who
shall refer it to the Independent Electoral Commission shall
cause a referendum to be held on the Bill in accordance
with subsection (4) and, if the Bill is supported on such a
referendum by the majority of voters provided for in that
subsection, it shall again be presented to the President for
his assent.
(4) A Bill for an act of the National Assembly altering any of
the provisions referred to in subsection (7) shall not be
passed by the National Assembly or presented to the
President for assent unless-
(a) the Bill is published and introduced in the manner required by paragraph (a) of subsection (2);
(b) The Bill is supported on the second and third readings by the votes of not less than three quarters of all the members of the National Assembly;
(c) The Bill has been referred by the Speaker to the Independent Electoral Commission and the Commission has, within six months of
such reference, held a referendum on the Bill; and
(d) At least fifty per cent of the persons entitled to vote in the referendum have taken part in the referendum and the Bill is supported in the referendum by at least seventy five per cent of those who voted.
(5) The Speaker and, in the case of a Bill to which subsection
(3) or (4) applies, the Independent Electoral Commission
shall certify that the relevant provisions of this section have
been complied with and such certificates shall be delivered
to the President when the Bill is presented for assent.
(6) Where a Bill which has been supported in a referendum by
the majority provided for in subsection (4) is presented to
the President to the President for assent, the President shall
assent to the Bill within seven days.
(7) Subsection (4) applies to -
(a) this section;
(b) section 1 and 79 (2) (which relate to the sovereignty of The Gambia);
(c) sections 4, 5 (1) and 6 (2) (which relate to the Constitution, as the supreme law of The Gambia;
(d) sections 8 and 13 (4) (which relate to citizenship);
(e) Chapter IV (which provides for the protection of fundamental rights and freedoms);
(f) Sections 39 (1), 42 (1), 47 (3) (which relate to elections and the Independent Electoral Commission) ;
(g) Section 63 (1) and the first sentence of section 71 (2) (which relate to the term of the President and the qualifications for Secretaries of State);
(h) Sections 85 (4) and 160 (7) (which relate to the Director of Public prosecutions and the independent of the Auditor general);
(i) Sections 87 and 100 (which relate to the National Assembly and the legislative power);
(j) Sections 120(1)(a), (2) and (3), 121 (1), 123, 126 to 128, 130, 132, 133, 135 (1) and (2), 136 and 138(1), (4), (5) and (6) (which relate to the judicature (;
(k) Sections 149 (1) and 151 (1) which relate to taxation and the withdrawal of money from public funds);
(l) Section 193(1) (which relate to local government);
(8) No Act of the National Assembly shall be
deemed to amend, add to, repeal or in any way
alter any of the provisions of this Constitution
unless the title of the Act clearly indicates that
intention and the Act does so in express terms.
(9) In this section –
(a) references to this Constitution include references to any law that amends or replaces any of the provisions of this Constitution;
(b) to the alteration of this Constitution include references to the amendment, modification or re-enactment with or without amendment or modification, of the Constitution or of any provision for the time being contained in this Constitution, the suspension or repeal or the making of different provision in lieu thereof, and the addition of new provisions to this Constitution.
Note: turk is a constitution expert. This is a legal advice. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 03 Sep 2010 10:00:26 |
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Momodou
Denmark
11730 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 10:07:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Janko
turk, you did not answer my quetion;
My question to the constitution experts.
What does the constitution say about "citizen’s initiative" for constitutional reform or amendment?
- you don´t have to answer
Janko, do you mean "Orange Revolution" style?
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A clear conscience fears no accusation - proverb from Sierra Leone |
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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 10:35:42
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quote:
Originally posted by kobo
quote:
Originally posted by Janyanfara
..... NADD failed because there were elements within who want the continuation of Jammeh dictatorship and the same elements are still using their praise singers to cast doubts amongst us......
I can't digest your statements but gracefully respect your opinions!
dBaldeh hasn't forwarded any valid point but only making open (incomplete) statements or many unsubstantiated remarks to promote politics of discord, partisan and factionalism that appeased UDP militants. That's what you enjoying (with your laugh's) and compliment him together with Momodou quoted; "Dbaldeh and brother Momodou brought valid points and I can assure them all that UDP would have no choise but to be committed to such proposals and would no doubt be ready when ever other oppositions are prepared to put their trust in its leadership. "
The foregoing is exactly in wollof parlance; "raacha taye sa kanaam" instead of thinking in the spirit of SOLIDARITY FOR A COMMON GOAL!
Having appreciated and acknowledged that THERE IS A COMMON GOAL, THEN WHY SHOULD ANY PARTY HIJACK IT THERE ARE MANY OPTIONS FOR THE COMMON GOOD!
ON RATIONALE FOR NADD REFER ANOTHER GAMBIAN OPINION; courtesy of Jollof online news publish a letter What Gambia needs ahead of 2011 elections! under http://www.jollofnews.com/what-gambia-needs-ahead-of-2011-elections.html
PLEASE RE-VISIT OUR NATIONAL ANTHEM TO MAKE IT WORK AS A CONSTITUTION AND BASED ALL STRATEGIC POLICY GOALS AND TACTICAL MOVES ON THEM
WILL BE BACK ON OTHER PENDING OBSERVATIONS!
Kobo, this is no rocket science. I don't know what more valid points you want me to advance because it appears you are well grounded on your principles and will not move from your disadvantage point regardless of what is offered to you!
I am one of those on record here who outrightly supported the NADD idea and openly defended Halifa and others for putting together what we all including all the opposition parties and their supporters that NADD was a winning formula until the leader issue came to bare.
But you know I am a realist and practical person. If PDOIS has been doing the same old politics for over 20 years and they cannot move from A to B, then common sense dictates that they revisit their tactics and change course.
If UDP continue to have dreams of sweeping the elections every election circle and yet they continue to lose votes then common sense dictates that they revisit their plans look for ways to get from point A to B.
You and everyone else here knows that the opposition has no chance in winning if they cannot put their act together.
How in the world can you negotiate without sitting at the table and discussing the issues?
Constitution? What constitution? Who is the constitution desiged to serve? The President or the people. Who has the mandate to change the constitution?
People like Shaka wants to be experts of a manipulated constitution and a deceptive government.
No one condones violence as uncle Janko said, but if the interest of the Gambia and if other means outside of rig elections is what will lead us to a genuine democracy, then I pray to God let it happen in peace!
What happened in Guinea, didn't someone try to blow the head of Captain Daddy which led to their supposed free elections?
We can all sit here and argue about a constitution that only matters when the dictators what it to. They could care less about what the constitution says...
So get real Shaka with your knowledge and brother Kobo bravo on your empty principles....
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Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 10:49:06
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Momodou
I don't think Janko refer Orange revolution. I think he is seeking for some kind of petition by people to demand constitution change which is legally unconstitutional but politically could mean something.
I do not see any orange revolution, and to be honest, I don't recommend. Current president, Jammeh, is doing OK job. If, people are not happy, there is an election process to change the president. Some kind of uprising like orange revolution would be very risky for Gambia. It could easily turn to red.
Mr.D
quote:
No one condones violence as uncle Janko said, but if the interest of the Gambia and if other means outside of rig elections is what will lead us to a genuine democracy, then I pray to God let it happen in peace!
What happened in Guinea, didn't someone try to blow the head of Captain Daddy which led to their supposed free elections?
These statements deserve clarification. "If other means outside of rig elections", What are potential other means? And how Guinea example relates? Can you elaborate? |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 03 Sep 2010 10:52:26 |
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Momodou
Denmark
11730 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 10:56:50
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| Turk, my question is for Janko and I am sure he is capable of answering it. He has asked about "citizen’s initiative" for constitutional reform or amendment and I am interested to know if he was thinking about Orange Revolution type of initiative. I have no doubt that the situation could easily turn to red. |
A clear conscience fears no accusation - proverb from Sierra Leone |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 11:01:56
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Momodou
You don't have to be rude. I am speculating what he meant. It is open discussion right? Alternatively you can PM him. Besides, Janko and I are very good buddies. lol. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 03 Sep 2010 11:04:05 |
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