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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Nov 2008 : 21:31:51
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gains,, turk? what's to be gained from this? and by whom? no-one wins here.
Bev
Of course someone must have a motive to do this? Obviously it is a tragedy we all condemn but what is the motive? Someone wants to do retaliation? Americans did operated in pakistani soil before, killing civilians. http://www.inteldaily.com/?c=149&a=8140 You may call it collateral damage, or mistake. It is most likely pakistani act against westerners. Or you could be right, someone from kashmire to ignite something between india and pakistan.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 01 Dec 2008 00:07:36 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 09:02:03
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Originally posted by lurker
yet another outrage in the name of Islam. Another reason for people to hate the religion and its practitioners.
The tired old reasons of the West's foreign policy, the middle eastern situation do nothing to excuse the disgusting, inhuman, appalling acts perpetrated by cowards and subhumans upon people who have no sway whatsover against the "causes" these animals claim to be the reeasons for their atrocious acts. The progress of humanity as a whole, every step we take forward, every good thing we achieve, is washed away in a stream of innocent blood by people who hijack this , essentially peaceful, religion.
Until the vast, but unfortunately silent majority, of decent Islamic folk , get up and expose these vile animals in their midst, these preachers of hate who turn innocent,law-abiding, god-fearing kids , into tools of murder and self-destruction, the world is doomed... in the name of god,and Islam.???? complete b-llocks. Shame on the silent ones who know any of these imams, mullahs, terrorists, or centres of radicalisation and keep their pathetic mouths shut.
Let them not have any sympathy when the next time the tv shows an 18 year old with an ak47 being killed, that is is one of their own children.
rot in hell the lot of them.
You might want to read this and see the risk some critics have to endure ...
http://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSTRE4AI02T20081119 |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 09:09:24
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history is littered with bullies and tyrants. it always seems to take a small trickle which then turns into a flood before they get ousted by numbers, if not by might.
but, if the few do not start the trickle, then the flood will never arrive.
besides, silence leaves everyone at risk and the situation will just worsen.
i think kanibaa said good words above.
one day, heaven forbid, one of us could be a victim. what does it take to get those who could help to actually help?
i am not a muslim.Most of you are.
How does the civilised majority persuade its own community that they must root out the animals in their midst? or does everyone keep their head down til the next bomb or bullet strikes, and pray to the same God that these monsters purport to worship, that the bullets miss them and their loved ones?
madness. |
Edited by - lurker on 01 Dec 2008 09:10:30 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 09:40:06
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| Lurker, you should perhaps check out Egypt's Sheikh Tantawi of the Al Anshar University. This is the man often referred to as the "Pope of the muslim world". He has a large following. He is arguably the leading cleric in the Islamic world today. I first came across M.S.Tantawi's arguments about Jihad, terrorism, and 911 in the New Yorker. His arguments are surprisingly very much at odds with the minority position of Ali Salem and Dr. El Fadl I have mentioned above. |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 10:53:13
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| kay, are you saying that El Fadl's statement from your posting above is the "minority position" within islamic academia? frightening. |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 11:56:59
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| I would think so. The vast majority that I have come across are at least by word or default sympathetic to the jihadists ... |
Edited by - kayjatta on 01 Dec 2008 11:58:13 |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 13:25:26
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| no hope for the world, then.... |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 21:36:39
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Was this act done by the terrorists for kashmir seperatist movement?
lurker
Don't you think you or people who have similar perspective are unfairly establish direct link between terrorist and muslims. Do you think there is/was same link between IRA and whole irish population? Here is the question; can you just outline what you expect us to do and muslim community is not doing enough? Be specific.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 22:21:23
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turk.... what unfair link? the terrorists were muslim(and these days often are).
as for outlining what's expected....thought i already had.
there are ? 1 billion ? muslims. most are normal, decent people. they hide a malignant cancer in their body.
|Do not tell me that of the 99% humane, god-fearing muslims, none of them know of the bad one ones and their rotten teachers.
Those that do need to expose them and their practices and their whereabouts to the relevant authorities.
Then their bit is done and they can only hope that the authorities can cut out the cancer.
simple enough. not rocket science.
stop hiding, turning blind eyes, ignoring what goes on.
some of then have to start the trickle.
do not tell me that there are those in the UK, for example, who have been approached by radicalisers in uni campuses, but have refused to be part of it. did they then go and let others know what goes on under their noses? methinks not.
how many need to die? |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 22:44:59
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The IRA..was a Catholic political movement....all IRA members were Catholics, but not all Catholics were active members of IRA. MANY were SYMPATHISERS.
So the parallel would be :
all terrorists in India are Muslim, but not all muslims are terrorists. Many Muslims are sympathisers.....
It is actually quite a useful comparison. We had years of not being able to hear IRA voices on British TV..... It only made hte movement stronger and more defiant.
At some point to make this madness stop we wil have to consider the terrorist perspective. We will have to engage with them.
Only by talking and understanding each others point of view can we move forward.
It was hard to get Catholics to speak out against IRA.
It is hard to get Muslims to talk about the threat within their religion.
The majority of moderate people need to stand up and make sure their voice is listen to.
Otherwise all we in the west hear is the extreme view.
That is what western prejudice is formed on.
The voice of the moderate average Muslim needs to get out there.... |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 21:29:16
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lurker
I am sure someone in palestine is question why western people do not stand against biased policy towards palestinians/muslims instead of favorism to sionism. Of course, just like you, I or muslims have different perspective and expectations from the other side.
In my opinion it is unfair because you are making the issue very simple. You are giving all the responsibility to muslim community and the solution from the muslims. That should not be the case. There is already islamophobia which is virtual enemy created by USA media bombarding the information to associate the islam with the terrorism.
Islam had existed tausands years. During the dark ages in europe, muslims were superpower, we were involving human rights violations in europe by europeans. During ottoman empire, the sultan accepted jewish refugees from spainish inqusition which may be one of the first mass political migration of the history.
There was no question of terrorism when muslim radicals were with USA/UK when Osama was fighting against communists. Suddenly, after cold war finished, west was too quick to find an enemy. We did not talk about islamic fundamentalism 25 years ago. Suddenly, we are now talking about islamic fundamentalism. What happened? So, if islam or muslims as an ideology or social structure violant that was not issue before. My point, it is UNFAIR you associating islam as a sole with terrorism. You said terrorists were muslims, that was true, but it is not necessaryly there is a direct link between islam and terrorism. While we do have responsibilities, as you pointed, but we are not the only one who can stop this mess. Westerner need to step up too.
Let me give you a few example to explain my critism for your perspective. For example, according to most westerners syrians are fundamentalist too. That is not true at all. Syria, mostly belongs to a sect which is very secular. They don't practise islam, most of their women without hijab. Or chechens. I know many chechens in Turkey or chechnia consume alcohol, no preying, adultary is very common. Their issue is with 'western' or 'russian' is political not religious. The current situation in mumbasi, pakistani terrorist are motivated by seperatist movement. It may be natinalism more than religion. You are sounded like very ambitious about making your point that results the 'direct link between islam and terrorism' is unfair in my opinion.
Like many muslims, moderate muslims, I have problem with western foreign policy, but it is not because of my islamic ideology. Myself, i do not prey 5 times a day, i have very liberal view my social life, but still I am sharing some of the critical view these so called radical have. I condemn their violance and their methodology which I don't agree, however, point I am trying to make is 'this is not about only islamic ideology' it is political.
Your perspective is not FAIR because you are not considering other factors. Like the muslims casuality and why we are angry. According to this website counting death of iraqis or afghanis because of occupation tausands. I mean muslims losing tausands people than westerners to violance. We are more victim than westerners. Oh, you can get angry about terrorism but muslims can't get angry about 'colatarel damage' by your government. Seems like you ignored the link I provided. The usa army attacked cause many civilians including women and children death in northern pakistan. It is unfair you are coming here very angry about terrorism and you are holding muslim sole responsible. You may be right being angry but do you have any sympathy or consideration that we, muslims suffer too. Iraqi occupation, the treatment we have in west, at immigrations.
I take your point of muslims to be more pro-active against terrorist act, at the same time, they can't/shouldn't be sole responsible for terrorism. The root cause of terrorism is very complex, there are certainly responsibilities people other than muslims, particularly western people as well.
How about you, what do you think about UK occupation of iraq and afghanistan by british army? What do you think about the deaths because of occupations?
How many need to die by UK/USA attack on Afghanistan or Iraq?
What is the difference of this pakistani group fighting for kashmir than tamil tigers or columbian marxist militants? Do we require all the communists in the world speak up against columbians rebels? |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 03 Dec 2008 06:10:30 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 21:40:44
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bev
The IRA may have been catholics but their motivation was more nationalist. Catholism may inspire people but I don't see irish being any more or less religious than british. Many muslims don't approve terrorism. But again, the root of terrorism is not entirly based on islam. It has political and social elements as root cause of terrorism.
I mean, you are under occupation and you lose your family, daughter, son to violance. The generation of iraqi children grow under USA occupation, do you expect them to be normal children.
Isn't there a direct link between the children experience domestic violance during their childhood, most likely involve violance when they grow up. Look at palestinians. Islam has little to do with the palestinians' violance. Most people grow up under israeli occupation, daily israeli forces taking you from your bedroom, middle of the night, insult you, embarress you in front of your family, that turns you a angry man.
Most important, PLO was marxist organization now it looks like palestinians replace communist ideas with islam. Isn't it interesting? |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 02 Dec 2008 21:56:06 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2008 : 08:01:16
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TURK:
The Tamil Tigers of Srilanka and the FARC of Columbia as well as the LRA of Ugandaa whose leader espouse Christianity as his inspiration are not in the same category with Al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hizbola, Lashkar (LET), or Jaishe (JEM).
Here is the difference; Tamil, FARC, and LRA are all localized groups with localize agenda. They have no idoelogy to undo human civilization or any part of it. They just want to take control of the government of their various countries. Usually the people they fight predominantly share the same religion and culture with them. These localized conflicts such as in the case of the Tamil, FARC, and LRA for example are low intensity conflicts with very little or no major global repercussions.
Al-Qaeda, on the other hand is a non-state entity with a global objective of destruction and mayhem of biblical proportions. Al-Qaeda aspires to destroy humsn civilization or a major part of it as we know it. Al-Qaeda's target is not the government of Srilanka as in the case of the Tamil nor the government of Columbia as in the case of the FARC. Al-Qaeda's target is the global citizen. Anyone who takes a flight from Banjul to New York, rides a train in London, eats in a restaurant in Madrid, checks into a hotel in Mumbai or works in an embassy in kenya and Tanzania is well within Al-Qaeda's target. In a nutshell, Al-Qaeda intends to bring down the world.
Now Hamas, Hizbola, LET, and JEM for example would have been different if their activities had been limited to Palestine, Lebanon and Kashmir respectively. However, that is not the case. These groups operate under the umbrela of Al-Qaeda's global operations where there is constant movement and exchange of resources, personnel, and sharing of ideology of a quasi Islamic caliphate. Together with Al-Qaeda, they rely on the same pool of recruits of largely disgruntled Muslim youth of Middle-Eastern origins.
The kind of excuses you make here is nothing but condoning terrorism. Obviously, you cannot condemn the bombings in Mumbai or east Africa, New York, Madrid and London if all you can do is link all of that to the throwing back and forth of blame between Israel and Palestine.This is exactly what I refered to above as being "sympathetic to terrorism either by word or default". Thank you. |
Edited by - kayjatta on 03 Dec 2008 08:08:35 |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2008 : 09:30:08
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thanks, kay. better put than i ever could.
turk, no-one asked for a potted history of why everyone hates everyone.
fact is muslim terrorists have again killed innocent people in the name of exactly what?
instead of shunting excuses across, we are trying to find solutions. dialogue, whatever. but, there still remains a need for the moderates, as bev refers to them, to start casting out the devils from their midst. they know what goes on. it might be with a price to pay, of course. someone has to start somewhere.your diatribe is effectively the same propaganda the evil b-strds use to radicalise the disaffected into doing what they do.
foreign policies have always upset people.
does not mean you turn your children into walking bombs and kill grandmothers and babies doing their shopping.
go fight armies and militants. stop murdering innocents.
what good did it do the cause of the middle east by killing that rabbi and his wife? what good did it do the "jihadist's" cause to bomb a railway station, where they probably killed innocent muslims? what good did those tw-t bali bombers do any islamic cause by killing holidaymakers and innocent muslim bystanders.?
nobody but a retard would believe that these scumbags have furthered any islamic cause in any way.
they just make the world more "islamophobic" as you would have it.
islam and others did live in peace , until the cyclic hatreds of civilisation rose , as usual, again.
religion is the root of all evil, it seems, not the love of money.
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2008 : 12:07:13
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Wherever and whenever innocent lives are lost it should be condemned vehemently. In the same vein every ACTION gets a REACTION.
I maybe wrong, but before 1947 and 1948 there were no major terrorist groups in the world in any name. The first terrorist name i heard as a child was Abou Abass. He was fighting for the liberation of Palestine. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Jonas Savimbi has killed millions in Angola and he had backing from the West notably USA. For once he has never been dubbed a terrorist.John Garang in Sudan. Mandela until recently was tagged a terrorist. Why? becos he was fighting to end callous white minority rule in his native South Africa. This did not go down well with the west.
If the British did not grab Palestinian lands to give the Zionists in 1948 most likely there would not have been Hamas, PLO and Hizbolah.After creating that mess, they armed Israel to the teeth, and condone the barbrism perpetrated by Israel on innocent women and children in Palestine. Palestine would have been wiped out on the world map if it were not for patriots like Yasser Arafat who stood up and died for his homeland. As recent as yesterday , Gazans are starving and dying of hunger thanks to the mighty Israel. Palestinians go to their farms when it suits Israel, Palestinians get medical and food aid when it suits Israel, Palestians get fuel when it suits them. Is this just?anyone condemning them? NO one. How many western media carried it as important? Only Al-Jazeera covered it adequately.Yet people expect Muslims, to bring up imaginative terrorists to be slaughtered? These are individual terrorists. US planes can hit civilian targets in Pakistan and no one condemns. When muslim civilians are killed all alone its not terrorism. When targets are attacked and muslims and others are killed, but the perpetrators are muslims by origins or name then is islmic terrorism. Those states that killed innocent civilians are applauded.
There are many Muslim/Arab countries in the world where Christians and Muslims live in peace. This is simply becos there is mutual respect. None is trying to seize the others right of abode. In Syria there are Muslims and Chritians. Any fighting? NO. In Morocco there are Muslims, Chritians and Jews. Any fighting? NO. In Egyt the same. But why is there any fighting in the MiddleEast? A peole have been robbed of their heritgae and they are fighting to get it back, by whatever means posible.Hizbollah in Lebanon , Hamas in Palestine and those in Kashmir are figthing for their own lands. It just happens to be the opposing side are not muslims. So They are terrorists.
Until the super powers treat everybody with the same respect and dignity, there will always be anger and frustrations which when they spill over we get BALI, 9/11, Mumbai etc.
Unfortunately, all of us are at risk. I am not condoning any such acts but solicit the world leaders to address those problems that serve as breeding ground for such anger and attacks.
Lets look at this critically without prejudice.
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