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Momodou
Denmark
11739 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 13:19:34
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Snuggles, I see your point but I was confused by the the figures and whether they were for Gambia. Thanks for the clarification.
Let’s hope that the Central Statistics Department in Gambia makes records of all aspects of our society and provide the results to the general public in future. There is already a published "Atlas of 2003 Population and Housing Census" laying somewhere since 2006 and gathering dust without being made available to the public.
My guess is that they are just waiting for the president to give the greenlight for it to be made public. |
A clear conscience fears no accusation - proverb from Sierra Leone |
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Lily
United Kingdom
422 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 13:34:13
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Momodou - " Whilst one can lock your own child in Europe and sexually abuse her for years, it is unimaginable for such thing to happen in The Gambia"
Isn't that what marriage to a 14 year old girl is???
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Hiz Princess
United Kingdom
464 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 13:42:19
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Sab it makes interesting if not disturbing reading this a more recent document. I have read data from this report but never seen it in its entirety many thanks.
I have the 2003 UNICEF report which with 107 pages doesn't make light reading but has actual snippets of interviews with children from Banjul, Basse, Farafenni.
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Hiz Princess
United Kingdom
464 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 13:49:15
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quote:
Originally posted by snuggels
Yes your right Hiz the evidence is it is family members that are the main offenders. The NSPCC is a UK charity as is the Childline for abused children. To often people bury there heads in the sand and say Not In Our Back Yard but the evidence is to the contrary. Its the world over so why should Gambia be any different.
As has been pointed out countries with weak laws the problem is worse
Snuggles I thought as much.
What concerns me is that in regards to Gambia is there doesn't seen to be any taskforces in place to co- ordinate and offer support for these case.
The laws in Gambia are not weak just the implementation of them.
I asked the question about databases and no one as yet is able to answer, this was a recommendation made back in 2003 from what I assume, from the reluctance to do so ,may be a simply denial of the situation. If there's no database there's no records and all is well!!!
It now seems that the nationality of this particular predator can not be identified apart from beginning with the letter N!!!!!!
All is definitely not well. |
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Momodou
Denmark
11739 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 13:51:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Lily
Momodou - " Whilst one can lock your own child in Europe and sexually abuse her for years, it is unimaginable for such thing to happen in The Gambia"
Isn't that what marriage to a 14 year old girl is???
Lily, where have you seen any Gambian marry their own 14 old girl? |
A clear conscience fears no accusation - proverb from Sierra Leone |
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Hiz Princess
United Kingdom
464 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 14:01:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Lily
Whilst not wishing to get embroiled in any angry moral debates - I am going to ask a very controversial question
I'm wondering what great difference there is between a father marrying his poorly educated 14 year old daughter to a middle aged neighbour and parents supplying their young daughters to tourists for sex............. isn't it all about money in the end?
BOTH constitute desperate child abuse in my eyes but one event was openly celebrated in a village I know (and I expect many of us know of these incidents) and in the other event the man (rightly) gets arrested ...
Lily I guess the argument would be that the marriage would entail one sexual partner and a 'partnership' between two people, where as prostitution would mean multiple partners and no relationship between the parties.
These however are not my sentiments, because there seems to be no clear cut guidelines the whole area is hazy and this is why these practices seem acceptable.
The law between 'early marriages' is confusing this might be slightly off topic but ...
There are three forms of marriages that are recognised in The Gambia – civil, religious and
customary.
For civil marriages, the parties must be at least 21 years. If either party is below this age, he or she must obtain the written consent of a parent or guardian.
Canon Law, which governs most Roman Catholics, sets the minimum age at 16 years for males and 14 years for females, but permission from parents is normally required for young persons within this age group. In practice,for other Christian denominations, males must be 21 years and females 18 years in order to contract a marriage.
Islamic Law does not specify the ages at which a male and a female can
contract a marriage, relying instead on the physical maturity of the parties to determine readiness.
Customary marriages are also recognised by Gambian Law and are governed by customary laws and traditions of both parties so long as these are not “repugnant to justice and morality or inconsistent with the provision of any Act or other Law in force” as per section 11 of the DistrictTribunal Act of 1933.
In short, the age of contracting marriages under both Sharia and Customary Law (which, together are applicable to well over 90 per cent of the population) is not clearly defined, and it is not
unheard of that girls as young as 11 and 12 are married away, incapable of giving informed consent.
However, the law is being reviewed and revised to harmonise it with the Convention on Children’s Rights and other international child rights instruments.
Currently, efforts are under way in the form of education campaigns to change prevailing attitudes and preferences that encourage early marriage. At least three non govemental organisations have made
campaigning against early marriage a central focus of their activities. Also, theNational Policy for the Advancement of Gambian Women is to contribute to the reduction and elimination of early marriage, mainly through communication initiatives. |
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Hiz Princess
United Kingdom
464 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 14:22:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Momodou
I have no doubt that there child abuse in various forms can be found in every society including The Gambia. However, as one cannot compare child abuse in UK to that of Denmark which is both European Countries, so can one not uses the statistics representing UK to the Gambia.
My reaction is to the statistics Snuggles threw at us. Whilst one can lock your own child in Europe and sexually abuse her for years, it is unimaginable for such thing to happen in The Gambia.
There is definitely a big difference between the customs/culture in the Gambia and UK.
Sab has provided a very comprehensive document above on the Gambia’s situation and that is what is representative of the Gambia.
Momodou you are of course right, in Europe we are governed by different rules but as a general guideline any sort of sexual activity's with minors is frowned on and society will rebuke such behaviours so it tends to be underground rather than in the open.
As I have pointed out the attitude in Gambia is definitely different almost I am at pains to say 'acceptable'.
Snuggles post has made a valuable point that seems to be missed. The OP was about a tourist predator and unfortunately this is on the increase it would seem and now they are aided by Gambian Nationals at least in this case.
I would assume that the Gambian involved was known to either the child/ren or the family members and this is how this works. These are not strangers in most cases and knowing there's a reluctance/denial to report these acts to the correct authority's only aids these people.
I disagree completely, child abuse is abuse no matter of location it is a vile violation of trust and innocence. Whether its a marriage between a 40 year old and a 12 year old or a Father locking his children away for years for his own sadistic pleasure.
I think you make a valid point about the difference of customs / culture but a crime is a crime ,despite this Gambia has laws against such crimes.
As I pointed out there is a veil of secrecy that allows these behaviours to continue but hopefully with awareness and interventions this will be less common place.
This is taken from actual documentation, from interviews.
I think it proves my point about attitudes...
Interestingly,many children believed that it was inappropriate for victims or anyone else to report matters of incest to the police or other authorities and felt instead that the family through the mediation of religious and traditional elders should resolve the matter:
“It [should] not be reported to the police because it should be reported to the religious
leaders who should come and talk to the father or the mother to leave that.” (16-yearold
male, Jamisa Upper Basic School, Brikama, WD)
“It is a taboo, it is not a matter of police discussion.” (15-year-old male, Jamisa Upper
Basic School, Brikama, WD)
As with most groups of children, adult male and female community leaders believed that it was not beneficial for matters of incest to be reported to the police or other authorities. Like many
children, adults believed that the mediation of religious and traditional elders was deemed the most efficacious path to resolving the problem. |
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Momodou
Denmark
11739 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 14:32:01
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Hiz Princess, don't get me wrong. I tried to show that one cannot use statistics of one country for another even here in Europe.
I am not in any way defending any child abuser, whether it's the parents or any pedophiles.
Nonetheless, it is very often I see people try to condemn others through their own cultural glasses.
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A clear conscience fears no accusation - proverb from Sierra Leone |
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Lily
United Kingdom
422 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 16:35:39
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| It is a fair point Momodou about cultural glasses and I agree absolutely - but I still have a problem with marriage under 16 (even that's probably too young!!) and I agree with Snuggles general point that child abuse is a multi-cultural problem - not just a Western one.. |
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mbay
Germany
1007 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 20:58:10
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This is not a cultural borrowing but general problems, but I think we have some type of this.
We have a many type of child abuses today, which was normal in every culture, but still today. even though if I recall is that, the world have spooking in one language about child abuse cases, I think it has just being balanced in some cultures but still happen in some peoples world daily.
In my views the reason why girl gets married in such a young ages has many reasons. One example is that .leading in long way back in the culture, When there were no this kind of child care as we have right now. The second one might be fear about the girls could get a child out side marriage, which is a chop- head for the family proudly and dignity, while is the boys that need to be watched.
The boys just did their job and that is it, but what about the load on the girls and their mums?
Some time they come so scared about the father of the girl or the rest of the community that they have to think of abortion, which some time end deadly.
If I was a decision maker, I will construct every one who did so. The mother most be taking care until she get another man, and the child be taking care as long as is possible, the same with some already married men. You have to take the child to your house, and not as it is to leave the child at the mother or grandma.
And between this, there are some who might come too early to get his wife, with no time left for him to wait, for some reasons want go back. So one or both part will decide to give her away before the man will leave and no one can say when he would be back.
Today for some, it is even a child abuses for sending him to hustling in under age.
This seems still normal for some.
What so ever which kind it might be, it is just sad.
If you put your self in their positions you will understand them. If you are being sitting powerless, even though you have a right it simple will be denied.
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mavaric
Turkmenistan
94 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 16:38:31
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| I dont think the term 'paedophile' should be used to describe them. From what I understand here on the ground, those girls are all above the age of 18. If its consented, its not illegal to be honest.. They are adults allowing two white people to take pictures of them. I think we have a tendency here in The Gambia to overeact... The fact that they are outsiders & white makes the authorities & press blow it out of proportion. |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 17:19:41
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quote:
Originally posted by snuggels
NJUCKS-SERENATA
OK So where is the evidence I got the following information from the NSCPP
In 94 per cent of calls to ChildLine about sexual abuse in 2005/06, the child knew his or her abuser. 59% per cent of abusers were family members, 35 per cent were acquaintances, and 5 per cent were strangers
23% were perpetrated by a father
14% were perpetrated by an uncle
13% were perpetrated by a stepfather
8% were perpetrated by a cousin
6% were perpetrated by a grandfather
4% were perpetrated by a mother 6 .
this stats as well as your earlier comments are misleading. that was my point. In the Gambia there is infact a child helpline, i think its 199.
i agree with momodou that you cannot superimpose figures from one coutry to another. For example such statistics for the gambia would/should have featured the tourists who are actually being caught.
as i mentioned to you earlier, early marriage the its associated problem have been recognised here decades and a lot of effort has been done towards resolving it.THIS INCLUDES ENCOURAGING GIRLS TO GO TO SCHOOL (FREE SCHOLARSHIPS) AND MORE IMPORTANTLY TO STAY IN SCHOOL is one approach.
if you look at the figures of girls going/staying in school the numbers have increased dramatically.
whilst i could agree that abuses can come from within the family i dont think its fair to say its '' a tradition''.
there is just no evidence to support that. |
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sab
United Kingdom
912 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 19:06:19
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I feel it appropriate to again highlight this report as it contains some material that some of you are referring too.
I believe it was first posted my Momodou some three to four years back.
Halfway though the report:
http://www.csd.gm/Social%20Research/SEXUAL%20EXPLOITATTION%20STUDY.pdf you will find the material.
STUDY ON THE SEXUAL ABUSE
AND EXPLOITATION OF
CHILDREN IN THE GAMBIA
CHILDREN’S PERCEPTION OF
SEXUAL ABUSE AND SEXUAL EXPLOITATION
Awareness and attitudes towards sexual abuse and sexual
exploitation
Awareness and attitudes towards sexual abuse
Awareness and attitudes towards age and sexual relations
Incest
COMMUNITY’S PERCEPTION OF
SEXUAL ABUSE AND SEXUAL EXPLOITATION
Attitudes towards sexual abuse
sab.
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The world would be a poorer place if it was peopled by children whose parents risked nothing in the cause of social justice, for fear of personal loss. (Joe Slovo - African revolutionary) |
Edited by - sab on 31 Aug 2008 19:11:26 |
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Momodou
Denmark
11739 Posts |
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sab
United Kingdom
912 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 19:39:09
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Goodness Momodou, how come that eighteen months seems like three to four years? Must be a senior moment (age)
Thanks for the reminder... |
The world would be a poorer place if it was peopled by children whose parents risked nothing in the cause of social justice, for fear of personal loss. (Joe Slovo - African revolutionary) |
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