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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 22:00:40
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Warning!
Gambia's 1994 July 22 military takeover of political power is best accounted as one illegal operation. Had they been caught in the process, the ring leaders and many of their subbordinates would have been counting prison years by now.
There was no break from the illegal coup operation. By considering the essence of constitutionality and legal regulations, Gambians will appear abundantly naive to accept staying under a regime that stepped on an illegal platform in ascending to political high positions. Is it proper to dismantle one legal platform and build an illegal order without due legal process?
Sticking by the illusion that the regime has been voted-in three or so times is not the most tradable explanation. Let legal hands on this forum and elsewhere help to deliver a suitable arbitration over the case of continuity for a regime that started it with military coup. Do we have to settle for reasons associated with manipulative elections without rectifying the orginal error of queue jumping?
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Karamba |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 22:15:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Karamba
Is it proper to dismantle one legal platform and build an illegal order without due legal process?
Karamba, may I ask what legal platform was replaced? If you are referring to the corrupt PPP regime then we need to first probe the basis of the argument that supports the premise of the PPP regime's legality. In my opinion, it was their unashamed, uncontrolled act of pillage and plunder of our dear Gambia that got us in the mess we are in today. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 01:21:18
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Mansasulu
Your question: What legal platform was replaced?
My answer: Gambia had a legally constituted parliamentary democracy. It was open to all Gambians to seek political mandate by due process of law. The occasion of defeating the constitution by coup is considered illegal. The morale bearing of this thread rests on the rationale to determine if the occasion of a coup could easily weave in our political process without competent scrutiny. If you ask for reason, here is an answer: By not subjecting the situation to competent judicial scrutiny, in future, legal remedy for similar coups could not rely on precedence as basis of fair trial. To keep mute over this one case implies that coups in Gambia can no longer be punishable. Whatever was wrong with the preceding regime may be relevant information. The issue at hand is about now and for future generations. If you choose that we let this go pass, it is still subject to public debate. Remember we all hold differnt views and that is why competent legal remedy is most judicious in this matter of great precedence. |
Karamba |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 03:16:21
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Coups, whether by the military or civilians are as old as institutions of governance. You may be somewhat right in your assertion that we had a legally constituted paliarmentary democracy but only on paper. Lets not forget that democraties like all other forms of governments and this includes military regimes do not exist in a vacuum.
I believe that unless you have leaders who have the interest of their people at heart, any legitimate or legally constituted democracy for that matter is merely empty rhethoric. This was the case with our so called legally constituted paliamentary democracy you are alluding to. We may have that concept on paper, in practical terms, however, that concept was never respected by the PPP regime. This was a regime that oversaw the systematic widespread abuse of the Gambia's meagre resources with impunity for well over three decades. In practical terms, this is why Jammeh and his hunchos came to power and what they did after that is the current mess we are in today. I still believe that the PPP regime if anything, is as culpable as the APRC as far as Gambia's current predicament. History will not be kind to both of them.
Many at times we try to compare how the rule of law was respected in Gambia compared with other countries in our neighbourhood. It has become so convenient for us to point fingers at our former government's competence and tolerance for the relative peace and security Gambia has enjoyed over years. However, if throw in other variables we can make the argument that our lack of resources and poverty is as probably an equally compelling reason for peace in Gambia. In other words, if there is nothing to fight for why not live in peace.
In short, we cannot use the so called "constitutional legality" of the woefully corrupt and inept PPP regime as a legal basis to judiciously deliberate on the legality of the APRC. I see no difference between the two. They have both failed the Gambian people. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 04:40:38
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Mansasulu
You have valid observations about the enabling environment that bred what we have today as the regime in posture. After careful digest, you seem inclined to a George Woodcock school of thought where anarchism reigns. Do you want to tell Gambians that because a preceding regime played corrupt, we must legalise corruption? Because a preceding regime was wrong, we must accept wrong as matter of rule and not without exception? On a thin line of reasoning, this thread is an invitation to LEGAL balance of thought in order that all those wrongs you enumerated and for those aspiring to upkeep them, we can locate a safe basket for their elimination. One would imagine a lot of worried Gambian faces if today we succumb to a Mansasulu regime of anarchism where the standard of arbitration takes authority by justifying wrong for wrong. Does that not bother you? That is evidently defeatist, good man.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=anarchist+reader&tag=mh0a9-21&index=stripbooks&ref=pd_sl_52cdw88we6_p
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_law |
Karamba |
Edited by - Karamba on 03 Apr 2008 04:57:47 |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 05:53:59
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Didn't you read in my posting where I said that the APRC regime and the PPP regime are equally culpable for the plight of the Gambia today. And where did I advocate for anarchy? My point is the Gambian people deserve better than replacing tyrants with tyrants and at the sametime trying to convince the people that tyrant 1 is legal and tyrant 2 is illegal.
I wont be surprise if your political posturing is a mere reflection of your yearning for the "good ol' days" of Jawara and his hunchos. They and the current crop of leadership are the same. If getting rid of both these groups of selfish beings translate to anarchy so be it. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 11:21:45
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this is an interesting topic. although i have very little legal knowledge, the theme what brother karamba is alluding to seems to be the legitimacy of coup in africa and here in the gambia particularly.
the ppp was corrupt ,it was nepotic, and it was lazy.yet, they were voted in by gambians over and over again.the choices of the gambian people lies in there wllingness to democratically choose a particular individual and a party. when yahya and his friends stage the coup, they undo the choices of the gambian people.
now was that right legaly? i am not a holistic democrat but i believe that it wasn't right to overthrow a governemnet by means of force. yet ,the ppp created an enrivonment even i once vow to take part in a coup. but that was my decision.
the key issue here is that jammeh has set a precidence and an illiegal precidence, can some gambians today try to overthrow his governemnt due to the many wrongs he has precided over?
coups are not the solution for gambia. as for jammeh, he will face the gambain courts. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 14:39:59
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I think the issue here is whether we can use the "legitimacy" of the PPP regime as a yardstick to measure the current APRC regime's legality or continuity, which by the way, came to office through a democratic process. If my memory is not hazy, the Gambian people voted Jammeh in office in 1997 and subsequently in 2001, 2006.
If you note Karamba's posting, he is referring to the APRC regime not the AFPRC junta. Now, I think we are all in agreement that taking power by force may not be legal. However, I am in no legal dilemma when it comes to overthrowing a corrupt government even if was democratically elected for 10 consecutive terms. In fact, some coups are necessary in cases where corrupt governments continue to milk the people with impunity,in that it gives people a chance to right a wrong. The overthrow of Musa Traore in Mali in 1991 pays credence to this notion. Today, not only is Mali more stable but they have a leader who is atypical of most African dictators. If only we could get a Tumani Touray!
Now the Gambian people did not take to the streets and protest the gross and egregious abuse perpetuated by the PPP regime as was the case in Mali in 1991. However, if we were to hold a referendum back them, I am sure the overwhelming majority of the people were in support of ridding us a corrupt system. What we may not have known was that we were jumping from the frying pan and into the fire. I dont know about most people, but neither is an acceptable option to me. In short, in as much as I detest the APRC regime, I am not about to "legitimize" the prior existence of the "democratically elected," corrupt and inept PPP regime.
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"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
Edited by - mansasulu on 03 Apr 2008 14:46:35 |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 18:16:32
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| mansasulu, you are right on the fact coups can work but in many cases it leads to more mismanagement and too much control. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 19:45:31
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Shadow beating or for lack of a better term, crying over spilt milk. How long shall we continue beating the vanished shadow of a deposed government? The fat elephant under our bed is alive and kicking. Change of name from AFPRC to APRC is not the point. The point is, should a regime that came to power by coup be let stay on....CONTINUITY? If anyone considers the legality of this as normal, let him or her throw his or her hat in the ring. |
Karamba |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 20:07:59
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If you want to get technical or want to throw legalese around that is your prerogative. The point is that it is very irresponsible in attempting to determine the legal continuity of the APRC regime base on the false presumption that the PPP regime was legitimate. Oh! by the way the APRC came to power via a democratic election. We can huff and puff all we want, but that does not change that fact. If we are honest to each other on this forum, many of us who were in Gambia in 1997 probably voted for him as was the case with the majority of the Gambian people.
There are clearly lots of legal parameters you can use to judiciously diliberate on the legality of the APRC regime. However, you are using the wrong one. Clearly, you are holding on to a false hope of the PPP coming back one day and to this, I say God forbid! Sorry, if Jammeh and his cronies spoiled your siesta. We dont want him and and most definately not the PPP. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 20:40:57
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Mansa
You have hit the nail on the head. You have said all i have been craving to say all this while but couldn't find the right words.
Thank you very much. We are where we are today thanks to the 'MOST DEMON-CRATIC REGIMES OF POST INDEPENDENCE AFRICA,PPP.
We couldn't do a la Malienne, becos Gambians are by nature very calm and only react when they are left no other options. |
madiss |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 20:48:07
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Mansasulu,
Where are you coming from with the notion that this or any of my postings are run in suppport of PPP? Get this one clear in your head. I am neither PPP no an advocate to have that party revived. If you choose to run away from the issue at hand, feel free and let any other interested person pick up from where you back off. You can never in the run of thousand miles impose your opinion in counting me as this or that party advocate. I have never in a word played for any party on this platform. You are wrong on that push. Try something else. This is not about me, you, or whoever. It is about Gambia, a country where on 22 July 1994 armed bandits robbed the state to jump on the high seat of power. That is a fact nobody is able to deny. For that regime to stay on without being scrutinised is the issue at hand. If you have reason that matters be laid to rest, how many Gambians agree with you? The question of APRC/AFPRC legality is always relevant. If you have no reason to justify why this regime must stay on, someone else may. That is why the question opens to each and every Gambia or those who care. |
Karamba |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 21:32:15
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Karamba, I think we are in agreement that the APRC regime is not legal because of the widespread systematic abuse that is going on in Gambia. Clearly, Jammeh has lost the plot. That is not in doubt.
The premise to the central theme of you argument if I may quote you again "Is it proper to dismantle one legal platform and build an illegal order without due legal process?"To that I say, the PPP had no "legal legitimacy" because they never cared about the people of the Gambia. This is why I said you cannot use the PPP regime as a model to determine whether the APRC should continue or not.
If we take your premise at face value, what we are doing in essence is affirming that the PPP was legitimate and therefore Jammeh's coup was a gross miscarriage of justice. In my opinion, the coup in itself was not illegal because the PPP had a contract with the people and they failed woefully to deliver. They had a mandate and a trust and they betrayed it.
Now, before you go off at a tangent, as you usually do, let me make it clear that Jammeh's rule today is illegal as I have affirmed in my opening sentence. Furthermore, your obsession with the current regime and constant latent support of the PPP regime's "legality" makes me wonder if their removal from power was not personal to you. Unless, the pattern in your postings start to show otherwise, I will continue to lump you with them. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
Edited by - mansasulu on 03 Apr 2008 21:47:05 |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 21:52:26
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Mansasulu,
Exactly so, that is the point. If we agree that A/FPRC is undeniably illegal, the most decent and longest lasting remedy is to have that bunch go. What other competent Gambians do injecting new life for Gambia does not have to be anyone's personal worry. In the current state of affairs, APRC clubbers want us to take it that their leader staked his life and must stay on. It is hard to get reasonable heads around that. The reason many backers of this regime insist on pushing far enough is their perpetual fear that once the regime disintegrates, all culprits will be lined up. That may not be the immediate priority. Even if the succeeding regime is to punish past criminals, that may not be top priority. Recovery and retention may be highest in priority ranking. Meting out punishment to culprits may fall at lowest points of attention and public concern. You would probably have known about the circus of commission sittings in the immediate aftermath of toppling the past regime. In the last Parliamentary House Sitting, it was reported where deposed president Jawara was referred to as "My uncle and Father of The Nation" by his disposer!
The sooner we all see our bigger picture rather the tiny body of political club members, the better. |
Karamba |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 22:05:24
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Mansasulu
You will exhaust your energy by pushing hard on the wrong premise. I have never for one moment mentioned my dislike for the coup based on reasons related to PPP. Why would I have to play it LATENT when I have all the space to be as transparent? You are wrong thousand fold in your fantasy that I hold hidden PPP agenda. What is wrong if I choose to support PPP in the widest open? There are more competent persons than me and your good self capable of defending PPP as a party. If I have reason to do that, I am free to do so. What you wish to pick up with PPP, go ahead but not in my backyard. You can never be able to transfuse that in my clean conscience. You do not have to bother about ME, YOU, or THEM. Think about the COUNTRY and liberate your conscience. You seem to be possessed. Feel free and stay away from speculation. You have never in one word picked anything from me suggesting I am fighting for a single party. I am for Gambia and Gambian people. Get that thick enough. |
Karamba |
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