 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Santanfara
3460 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 18:46:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by anna
Santanfara, i agree with you wholeheartedly that it is annoying that this topic is discussed over and over again - and that while we get nowhere. That is why i said earlier on in this thread 'discussion closed, because useless'. However, i object to your phrases that the issue is 'cheaply discussed' or that 'our western sisters tend to be overdiscussive'. Some of the male (Gambian) contributors are provocative, Mansasula wants proof that FGM has nothing to do with Islam (i am still very curious to hear if circumsion for women is first of all MENTIONED in the Quran), and he prefers it if i would 'not stick my Western nose in matters that concern Gambian people' and Kobo comes up with sexist remarks about disciplining women who apparently have to be deterred. Both Alhassan and you have now told us that this is not a practice born out of religion.
You know, i understand very well that nobody wants their cultural heritage criticised - it is only human to become defensive when this occurs, i would do the same even if it was about something belonging to my culture that i wasn't even too proud of myself. But is it so hard to understand that for us (your western sisters) this practice is so alien, so much something that makes us shiver just imagining it happening to us, that we feel we have to react everytime it is mentioned?
you are anna right ,my brother mansasulu was a bit provocative on the topic. anna , i can 100 % guarantee you that female circumcission is not mension anywhere in the noble quran .mr mansa is not saying it in the quran .he was implying that the doctrine of islamic teaching did not forbide it. this is his stand point. i can say a lot of reseach as been done on the issue but even if presented to some scholars they will say otherwise. what people are doing is gradual interracting with this scholars who are defending it. they say a hadith by our prophet advice the women who practice the circumcission to just take out a little bit. but this hadith has been found to be fabricated. THE QURAN DID NOT MENSION ANY THING ON FEMALE CIRCUMCISSION .male one is a most for muslims. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
 |
|
|
mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 18:50:05
|
Anna, I think you do get the point now. FGM is one thing and Female Circumcision is another.
Female Circumcision is inbedded in our culture and heritage. It is not mandated by Islam and yet still is not condemned by Islam so we are free to engage in it if we so chose.
Female Genital Mutilation is criminal, barbaric, and I for one cannot and will not support it because my religion condemns mutilation of every kind.
Now there are people in Gambia who under the guise of FGM, attempt to include Female Circumcision and a form of FGM. It may sound confusing to you and this is their sole intention.
By the way, I apologise for my earlier comments which offended you. It was uncalled for and unequivocally I retract them. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
Edited by - mansasulu on 13 Jun 2007 18:54:45 |
|
|
|
anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 18:51:51
|
| Thank you, very clear! |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
|
|
|
Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 18:57:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by mansasulu
Anna, I think you do get the point now. FGM is one thing and Female Circumcision is another.
Female Circumcision is inbedded in our culture and heritage. It is not mandated by Islam and yet still is not condemned by Islam so we are free to engage in it if we so chose.
Female Genital Mutilation is criminal, barbaric, and I for one cannot and will not support it because my religion condemns mutilation of every kind.
Now there are people in Gambia who under the guise of FGM, attempt to include Female Circumcision and a form of FGM. It may sound confusing to you and this is their sole intention.
By the way what indications did I give that I am a "HE"?
mansa ,sorry for using he .i am usually very confuse as to who is a male or female here. i was even very confuse about the genda of bybelon until recently. kobo is a female not male .or is she ? |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
|
|
|
serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 19:04:20
|
Anna, I tried to imagine how men from all cultures would react if it was a European tradition to castrate all men who are older than, say, 25, and you or I as European women would defend this tradition. I am sure even on the moon you could hear their howling and crying, and any time we brought up the topic the men would go mad! You would read 30, 50 pages of fierce responses here.
Yes, as a woman I react very sensible when men try to excuse brutal and inhumane practises done to women. |
|
|
|
anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 19:06:16
|
My above answer was to Santanfara!
Mansasula, i cannot for the life of me imagine that you are a 'SHE' (maybe because of the avatar representing Samory Touray, which by the way i used myself when i first dared to enter this Bantaba). If you are: happy to meet you sister! But i have to disappoint you: female circumcision to me is mutilation. Isn't male circumcision mutilation then? Yes, it is in a way, but it concerns a small part of skin which has no use anyway and i already explained to you why it is functional. Female circumcision also has a function: it is to make it almost impossible for women to reach orgasm, to give them less appetite for sex.
This to me appears to be unfair: why would women be denied to fully enjoy such an important aspect of human life, whereas men are not denied this??
And i am indeed not even talking now about all the dangers for circumcised women when they have to deliver their babies, or the pain they might have to endure during intercourse time and time again - just because someone thought that female circumcision should be more than just 'a neat cut'. |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
|
|
|
Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 19:28:32
|
Current talks in UK have it that paedophiles will be drugged to minimise their sexual drive. What is that doing if after some years some of them reform and come to need their full sex power? Imposing impotence (minimising sexual potential) is close to tampering with male sexuality. What about that? |
Karamba |
|
|
|
anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 19:50:52
|
| I do not know, Karamba. I suppose you know as well as we all do that topics concerning paedosexuality cause even more storms ('cheap discussion'?) than FGM. Tampering with an individual's sexuality should not happen to any individual, in principle. But when it comes to paedophiles or repeating rapists, everyone shouts 'castrate them' or even 'death penalty'. Again, i do not know. Is something wrong in their brains that can be 'repaired' so that they can really be 'reformed' as you call it? When a person's sexual urges damage other people, they should be treated. When children are damaged in this way, the whole world cries for 'punishment'. What is the best way? I do not mind to confess: i do not know! Are people depraved perverts, or are they sick? |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
|
|
|
Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 21:44:42
|
Anna
Paedophilia is certainly very abnormal state of affairs. It is a dangerous habit to say the least. There may be more to do with mental disorder and it looks little scientific studies is done on the subject. In real life, there are people who enjoy abnormal things. Paedophiles are some of society's doers of abnormal things. From the look of things, these creatures are nowhere near extinction. In a way, their numbers are growing. Though it takes more men in the count, female culprits are there too. School teachers have been named and shamed in recent times. Paedophilia is a universal plague faced by society. The Internet is one arena where the bug easily transmits. With the rate of marital disputes and possible divorce, promiscuity is a growing affair and paedoplia is part of that growth unfortunately. May be someone has better explanation. It is not helpful to ignor it just because someone close is not affected. Worst cases involve rapes and subsequent murder of victims. May be it helps to integrate paedophiles as it is done with gay members of society. Gayiety was an untouched matter some time ago but now more in the open. Paedophiles can perhaps be treated with psycho-therapic intervention. But they are secret people and that makes it difficult to access them for normal accord socialisation. |
Karamba |
|
|
|
anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 22:27:24
|
Interesting point of view! Karamba, are you trying to divert us from discussing FGM? I can only see the connection as far as a person's sexuality is tampered with. In the case of FGM, a woman's sexuality is tampered with, not because she is a threat to anybody but simply to 'put her in her place' - taking away something from her, so as to make her only serving a man's sexual purpose and not to use her own sexuality to enjoy her own life better in that respect.
In the case of paedophiles: their sexuality is tampered with because they are seen as being a threat to children, who are vulnerable and who should not be subjected to an adult's sexual urges, simply because they are too young to distinguish between what is imposed on them sexually and what they would want for themselves. It is abuse of power by the paedophile adult. Is this, as you call it, a dangerous habit or a defect in the brain? I opt for the latter, i will not accept that a person could be a paedophile 'out of habit'. You say they are mostly men, but also women could be paedophiles - you could be right. You single out one group: schoolteachers. That's easy, teachers are mostly working with young people on a daily basis. I am a teacher myself. My students are from 17 onwards. In my long career i have seen colleagues abusing their position, they were always males.
To compare paedophiles with gay people is preposterous. Gays fall in love and are sexually attracted with/to someone of their own sexe. This is not because they choose to do so, most of them would prefer a 'normal' relationship, perhaps get married and have children. They are not abusing their position or power because of age. Gays pair up with other gays. Nobody is hurt or traumatised because of a gay relationship. I am happy that in our society, gays do not have to be 'secret people' - they can enjoy their lives with their partners, nobody's hurt.
Paedophiles have to be 'secret people' - it cannot be otherwise because if they practice their sexuality they would be engaged in a criminal act: having sex with a person who is regarded by law too young to consent in the sexual activity. |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
|
|
|
gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 22:30:51
|
Being a paedophile is NOTHIMG to do with being gay and NOTHING to do with being straight but promiscous.
Paedophiles have urges that are unacceptable in our society. USUALLY it is men wanting sex with young girls, and this may extent to wanting to murder them after the sex act has taken place.
Clearly this is outside the boundaries of normal sexual behaviour.
Many paedophiles feel trapped by their genetics and would willing accept a biological cure. Some would still want to get their thrills and would hope that society would change so their particular thrill became acceptable.
In the uk a 30 year old man wanting sex with a 15 year old girl would be considered a paedophile. What about in Gambia? Do you have an African word for paedophile? Is it accepted to talk about? Do people realise that you need to be vigalant within the fanily first off all? 
|
|
|
|
Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 23:21:44
|
Not a diversion, Anna. It is rather an extension of the wider issue. Paedophiles as you had it, are dangerous members of society. They deserve every attention and exposure. Yet they are there in good number. About the issue to Female Circumcision tampering female urge, I am not sure what to take on that. It is coming to me as new information from reading the postings on this topic. It is hard to debate this. Those who passed through do not know how those who did not experience their sexual life. It would have be a better debate between two female camps on either category. May be a volunteer will help shade some light. It appears that lot of the stuff is being dashed out on assumptions. Has there been a lab test or some mechanical examination to measure levels of sensation that determines what is being stated here. In the absence of that, it is a matter of assumption. It has been mentioned earlier that the practice is both cultural and tradional and not prohibited by religion. To those who feel fine with it they decide. Those who accept it as fulfilment of their social process and traditional practice, they too have a decision. Back on the matter of paedophile. In their extrem conduct, they rape and murder. That is a direct threat.
Gambiabev, you asked if there is any equal name for paedophilia in Gambian context. I do not know a word for it. Paedophiles are rare species in Gambia. May be someone knows more about it. Those who involve in rape and under-age sex are dealt with accordingly. Gambia is small but a society of diversity and it is hard to how paedophila grows in diversity. |
Karamba |
|
|
|
jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2007 : 10:55:38
|
could we get back to the topic.
can i make sure i understand they postings that FGM is not in the koran, or religious writings.  |
|
|
|
kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2007 : 12:03:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by jambo
could we get back to the topic.
can i make sure i understand they postings that FGM is not in the koran, or religious writings.
If time permits later I'll surely come back to this topic. To those branding me as sexist? Its the culture and traditions that could be describe as sexist. It's not me as am just trying to explain rationale on the taditions and cultural points of views. In our culture women are tamed and supposed to subjue and honour their husbands (men). Most of my contributions are based ob customs, folk songs and certain confidential initiation rituals. Am trying to share my little knowlege for further research.
On FGM, there is cut and how neat or deep is the cut I don't know anything about that. The risks aspect has been covered by others. The bhealth hazards we need to refer to further reasearch through Gaenachologist and effects on birth etc.
C.U.later! |
Edited by - kobo on 14 Jun 2007 12:04:51 |
|
|
|
jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2007 : 12:25:01
|
kobo, look forward to your postings, the research has been done, Gamcotrap organised a series of seminars, workshops and lectures for the "women of the knife" in gambia to explain to them the effects of fgm. people keep asking for facts, figures reserach the research has been done, what else is needed.
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| Bantaba in Cyberspace |
© 2005-2024 Nijii |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
