| Author |
 Topic  |
|
gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 21:34:33
|
If she complies and consents its not rape. Lets face it, many women in the west consent to sex with their partner to keep the peace and without much pleasure, we wouldnt call that rape.
I don't understand why a man wouldnt want his wife to experience sexual pleasure. Surely it is a better experience if both people enjoy it? |
 |
|
|
kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 22:11:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by gambiabev
If she complies and consents its not rape. Lets face it, many women in the west consent to sex with their partner to keep the peace and without much pleasure, we wouldnt call that rape.
I don't understand why a man wouldnt want his wife to experience sexual pleasure. Surely it is a better experience if both people enjoy it?
We are not talking about enjoying sex. What we are looking at are the effects of FGM as a CULTURAL OR TRADITIONAL THERAPY. The HEALTH RISKS of cutting a piece of flesh!Ladies are made better sexually, DISCIPLINE and honour the power of marriage having been properly guided through this traditional process. Likewise men, according to my culture are taught a lot of discipline and intelligence as they mature to handle their responsibilities in all aspects of family life.
From day one the rituals and songs are RIDDLES, PUSSLE SOLVING and LOTS OF CONFIDENTIAL INFORAMTION that should be SAFEGUARDED for traditional EDUCATIONAL USE (until someone underwent through it!). However its not about CULT but about CONFIDENTIALITY!
Bye Bev! |
Edited by - kobo on 12 Jun 2007 22:13:47 |
|
|
|
gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 22:24:58
|
Sorry Kobo that is C**p! |
|
|
|
kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 22:37:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by gambiabev
Sorry Kobo that is C**p!
No worries as its part of our CULTURE AND WE LOVE IT. A society has some very rich cultural heritage.
Am back to interact and share with you on FGM. To reflect again. I don't like the word mutilation (butchery effect!). However a piece of flesh is cut and at what HEALTH RISKS or LOST OF LUST IN LOVE AND SEXUALLY? The cultural practise is deeply honoured in my country for certain moral reasons to prepare men and women for a good future as parents.
Come on Bev. You are welcome to continue our debate with due respect! |
Edited by - kobo on 12 Jun 2007 22:38:49 |
|
|
|
serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 22:42:21
|
| Kobo, your sexism leaves me speechles. And for all this ignorant and brutal nonsense you expect women to love and respect men. Good night... |
|
|
|
kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 22:55:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by serenata
Kobo, your sexism leaves me speechles. And for all this ignorant and brutal nonsense you expect women to love and respect men. Good night...
That sexist is an African norm. Europeans have their norms and likewise Arabs. Am a Gambian and am trying to explain things that are inexplicable and am risking compromising confidentiality.
Its hard to convince you but my intendtion is to make you understand certain beliefs and cultural practices.
Let me go further on the orienatation of this cut. Traditionally, there are three ritual cuts(experiencing blood!) for women to gain inspiration from (i.e You became HARDENED with courage and confidence to face tough challenges). The first is when a baby is born and the umbilcal cord is cut. That day evrybody would always remember. The second cut is circumcision as another important landmark in your life. Ladies are prepared for their husbands and for a good discipline family. Having undergone circumcision your fisrt day with your husband is a pride to you rather than worrying about trauma of thinking about losing virginity (first time sex!). You don't worry about it as you have gone through circumcision and knew you are both psychologically and physically fit to handle your special day. These are cultural orientation and development of confidence and self-esteem.
Thats the final lap for me.
Goodnight!
|
Edited by - kobo on 12 Jun 2007 23:05:52 |
|
|
|
BornAfrican
United Kingdom
119 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 00:36:37
|
i think female circumcision is more of a tribal thing than a religious one. i have been to every part of West Africa and the practice is common among tribes that are predominantly muslims and had interractions with Arabs from early times. (i am not saying it is not practiced among non muslims) In the Gambia for instance, there are tribes which are muslims but they do not practice female circumcision. from this, i have deduced that it is a cultural influence from Arabia.correct me if i am wrong because the practice might have been going on in Africa before Arabs set foot on our soils. the main idea is to "curb a woman's sexual desire",yet there is a lot of teenage pregnancy in the Gambia and most of these girls are circumcised. if circumcision is to deter such social mishaps, then its a failure. i could only relate female circumcision to honour killing which is still common in most middle eastern and asian countries where women are brutalised (maimed for life or killed) for bringing "shame" onto the family. all these simply shows how low the woman's status is in most societies.
i for one do not agree with the act but i think people need to be educated and informed and through dialogue, things will change. |
me |
|
|
|
gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 08:20:02
|
Born Africa, I think you are right in what you say. It is linked to the status of women and it is this that needs to change before women will feel strong enough to say NO to FGM.
Is there a high rate of teenage pregnancy in Gambia?
I wonder how it compares with western rates? Does anyone have any figures?
Teenage pregnancy is often linked to low levels of education and lack of life opporunities. Girls that want a decent job and can see a route to get that delay having babies. So it is no surprise to me that girls in the villages would have sex early and end up pregnant early.
My main concern is about whether this is a free choice or are they 'betrothed' to someone, or also given the low status of women how many of these early pregnancies are due to rapes?
FGM is the tip of an iceberg all to do with the status of women in a society.
|
|
|
|
jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 10:45:06
|
bornafrica you are right it is not practiced with christian tribes, there are most to keep the ceremony but not cut the women inside. they are interested in tying a "visible" red string around a girls waist and the husband cutting this. As a deterent it does not work, there is illegitamcy in africa.
In east africa, kenya trives are trying to stop the cutting inside but perhaps make a small nick on the thigh of the girl. For some tribes they have not been told the reason to stop the cutting, and this will come with education. Local health workers are getting together to deal with this. With the onset of dirty knives and cutting tools, this is way hiv and bllod disease are getting passed on.
|
|
|
|
Sibo
Denmark
231 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 13:35:17
|
Kobo
I have to disagree with you about being sexist is an african norm. Just because you are an african man does not mean that you have to be a sexist. And I canīt see how circuncesion is suppose to prepare a girl for her first time of having sex. As a circumcised girl, you canīt stop thinking about the fact that having sex for the first time might hurt as badly as circumcision or even worse. I definately canīt see how circumcision has anything to do with raising a diciplined family.This is all something that you are saying because you are a sexist and a woman suppressor.....I am sorry for all women that you and probably a lot of men thinking like, but I am especially sorry for your daughters or the one you might have in the future. |
|
|
|
lissie22
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 13:57:50
|
I think it is telling that Alhaji states that FGM is "circumcision not mutilation". This seems to be a way to justify an act that is an essential mutilation of the female gentalia.
I followed this thread and it seems that cultural and gender lines are divisive. To me to try and understand this act is beyond my comprehension. I was born and raised in America and had my adolescence in the 70's. I cannot imagine having undergone that act, then or now.
Universally it is my belief that all women and girls should not have their God given gentalia altered. These body parts were made in such a way that is a perfect fit for the male and I believed designed by God for sexual fulfillment between a husband and wife. I also believe that women's bodies and minds and spirits belong to themselves and that to try and control the sexual behavior or spirit of a girl or woman is oppressive and a sin.
But these are my beliefs, beliefs that are born out of my unique experience in a vastly different cultural landscape than that of what I imagine Gambia to be. I have to read the responses of a man like Kobo and respect that his experiences have uniquely shaped him to embrace his beliefs about the practice. He has freely admitted that he is sexist in his viewpoint. For him, in his cultural arena, this belief system may work. It may not, I haven't lived in Gambia. I have known Gambians closely and have found most (not all!!!) men to appear to be respectful of their wives and to see their wives as helpmates.
I would never say that F |
|
|
|
mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 15:42:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by BornAfrican
i think female circumcision is more of a tribal thing than a religious one. i have been to every part of West Africa and the practice is common among tribes that are predominantly muslims and had interractions with Arabs from early times. (i am not saying it is not practiced among non muslims) In the Gambia for instance, there are tribes which are muslims but they do not practice female circumcision. from this, i have deduced that it is a cultural influence from Arabia.correct me if i am wrong because the practice might have been going on in Africa before Arabs set foot on our soils. the main idea is to "curb a woman's sexual desire",yet there is a lot of teenage pregnancy in the Gambia and most of these girls are circumcised. if circumcision is to deter such social mishaps, then its a failure. i could only relate female circumcision to honour killing which is still common in most middle eastern and asian countries where women are brutalised (maimed for life or killed) for bringing "shame" onto the family. all these simply shows how low the woman's status is in most societies.
i for one do not agree with the act but i think people need to be educated and informed and through dialogue, things will change.
BornAfrican, the issue with female circumcision is that ISLAM which the majority of Gambians follow, has not explicitly in any form whatsoever, banned the practice.
I must say it is rather appalling to compare honor killing to female circumcision. Honor killing is murder, female circumcision is no where near to murder. You all can campaign all you want, but this is here to stay.
Until someone comes up with a credible evidence supported by a sound islamic ruling I will continue to support it. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
Edited by - mansasulu on 13 Jun 2007 15:44:12 |
|
|
|
MeMe
United Kingdom
541 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 17:54:39
|
| Sorry, maybe I've missed this in previous discussions but has anyone actually shown quote(s) from the Qu'ran where it is stated that FGM is a 'must' for muslim girls/women? |
It is better to die standing than to live on your knees - Ernesto Guevara de la Serna |
|
|
|
Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 18:05:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by MeMe
Sorry, maybe I've missed this in previous discussions but has anyone actually shown quote(s) from the Qu'ran where it is stated that FGM is a 'must' for muslim girls/women?
meme , it is not stated anywhere that it should be practice. if you follow our previous discussion on the topic under religious section it is been explicitly stated that this is not a religious injunction. but the reason this topic is cheaply discussed is the moral high ground people can easily take posting there feelings readily without even thinking if not going over and over this topic doesn't make sense. some islamic scholar catagoricaly forbide the practice but our western sisters tend to be over discussive over this kind of non-western norms. we apprecaite that but there is limit to every thing ,even judges take a break from deciding child abuse cases. in the uae most people don't know about female circucission . our able brother dr philips call unislamic .but this kind of issues are base in a set of mind ,culture and ethics . |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
|
|
|
anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 18:32:36
|
Santanfara, i agree with you wholeheartedly that it is annoying that this topic is discussed over and over again - and that while we get nowhere. That is why i said earlier on in this thread 'discussion closed, because useless'. However, i object to your phrases that the issue is 'cheaply discussed' or that 'our western sisters tend to be overdiscussive'. Some of the male (Gambian) contributors are provocative, Mansasula wants proof that FGM has nothing to do with Islam (i am still very curious to hear if circumsion for women is first of all MENTIONED in the Quran), and he prefers it if i would 'not stick my Western nose in matters that concern Gambian people' and Kobo comes up with sexist remarks about disciplining women who apparently have to be deterred. Both Alhassan and you have now told us that this is not a practice born out of religion.
You know, i understand very well that nobody wants their cultural heritage criticised - it is only human to become defensive when this occurs, i would do the same even if it was about something belonging to my culture that i wasn't even too proud of myself. But is it so hard to understand that for us (your western sisters) this practice is so alien, so much something that makes us shiver just imagining it happening to us, that we feel we have to react everytime it is mentioned?
|
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Topic Locked
