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Sibo
Denmark
231 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Aug 2007 : 10:54:56
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Santanfara
With AminaŽs case I understand that the man cannot be punished if she cnnot indentify him. But I also read another case about a 17-year-old girl from iraq called DuŽa. She was stoned to death because her family suspected that she was sleeping with a guy that her family forbid her to marry. After her death they found out that she was still a virgin. Which means she was killed for nothing.
I also have another guestion: If a man or woman wants to marry someone and the family refuses, so when that person commits adultry are the parents not the ones to blame? Because after all they are the one who would not let them get married??? |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2007 : 11:55:32
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Thanks Mansasulu , that is the right word , Muttah marriage (in Sherry Mustashah's novel "unveiled").
SANTAFARA , calm down. My analysis is based on Kondorong's finding that "penetration" is the element of sharia that has to be proven. That is why I said "based on that" much of the other acts including foreplay and oral sex may not be sufficient proof of adultry. That is why I recall Bill Clinton's argument in the Monica Lewinsky scandal. If you want to correct Kondorong's position you are free to do that , and we can all learn from that.
It is my understanding that Muttah marriage is not only practised in Iran and Iraq but also in Egypt. |
Edited by - kayjatta on 09 Aug 2007 12:30:13 |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2007 : 15:28:10
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Sibo the sad incident of the 17 year old you are refering to in iraq was actually not committed by muslims. Du'a was a Yazidi. Yazidis are predominantly ethnic kurds who follow a pre-islamic middle eastern religion. There were reports that she converted to islam in order to marry a muslim boy. She was stoned to death by a group of her Yazidi relatives for dating this muslim.
If parents prevent their children from marry for no good reason surely they are committing a sin, but they cannot take the blame for the children (two consenting adults) committing adultery. Sometimes parents prevent marriages for good reasons.
Kayjatta under predominant islamic law (Ahlul sunnah wal jammat) Muttah marriage is haram. Another fundamental difference between sunni and shia is the question of muttah marriage. It was banned in Iraq up to the time of the fall of Saddam Hussein. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
Edited by - mansasulu on 09 Aug 2007 15:29:34 |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2007 : 16:19:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Sibo
Santanfara
With AminaŽs case I understand that the man cannot be punished if she cnnot indentify him. But I also read another case about a 17-year-old girl from iraq called DuŽa. She was stoned to death because her family suspected that she was sleeping with a guy that her family forbid her to marry. After her death they found out that she was still a virgin. Which means she was killed for nothing.
I also have another guestion: If a man or woman wants to marry someone and the family refuses, so when that person commits adultry are the parents not the ones to blame? Because after all they are the one who would not let them get married???
sibo ,men and women both have rights to choose their own partners .the parent have little say in that ,it is customary for parents to help advice the son or daughter in making good life long choice .but the parents cannot stop the son/daugter choosing a partner.in the olden days in the gambia ,our parents choose our spouses for us ,infact the first son hardly know who he was going to marry because the dad make the choice for him .this is not religious but custom. it is forbin in islam for parents to force a choice of partner on their children. so clearly see the difference. many things we do are custom not religion. a simple studying of islamic figh will help explain all the comfusion. the cadi ( muslim jurist ) have the legal rights to tie the knot between potential couples if the parents and relative refuse to do it. this indicate that ,many parent's objection is not religious. where religiously the parents can legally object is the case of marrying outside the daugters faith or the man have open bad character .islam is simple if you understand the principles. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2007 : 03:52:05
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Why is it practised in Egypt , are they ****e too ? However , i agree that the majority of Muslims do not recognize such practices (temporary marriage), but that raises the reality that Muslims are not a homogenous population. Culture and traditions influence what brand of Islam we lean towards.
Could you guys tell us why muttah marriage is wrong ? And what special circumstances may it be allowed , if any ? |
Edited by - kayjatta on 10 Aug 2007 09:14:39 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2007 : 09:19:11
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quote:
Originally posted by serenata
kayjatta, I think it is. But in questions like this I am a damned hardliner: For me, any relationship which connects sex with subsistance is very close to prostitution. That means also the 'classical' marriage, be it poly- or monogamous.
Serenata , I agree with you , but you can't give for free... |
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Sibo
Denmark
231 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2007 : 09:47:54
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Thanks Mansasulu and Santanfara for the clarification.
The parents make it sound like they according religion have the right to say no if they do not like the partner their children chose. They make such a big deal out of it, turn their backs on their own flesh and blood, I do not get it. Cause after all the children and their partners are the one who are going o be living together probably for the rest of their lives, they know what type of person they will be able to get along with. I think it should exclusively be the decision of the children |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2007 : 09:56:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Sibo
Thanks Mansasulu and Santanfara for the clarification.
The parents make it sound like they according religion have the right to say no if they do not like the partner their children chose. They make such a big deal out of it, turn their backs on their own flesh and blood, I do not get it. Cause after all the children and their partners are the one who are going o be living together probably for the rest of their lives, they know what type of person they will be able to get along with. I think it should exclusively be the decision of the children
Right Sibo ! |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2007 : 16:44:03
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Kayjatta, let me start of by stating that I AM NOT AN ISLAMIC SCHOLAR but a student trying to know more about islam as I try to answer your questions. I did a little bit of research and what I found is that Mutah marriage is not allowed under any circumstances today simply because it does not fulfil all the requirements of valid marriage contract under islamic law. For a marriage to be valid among other things, at least two witnesses have to be present, a representative (wali) of the woman has to be present, and the said marriage has to be devoid of any stipulated or fixed period. All these are absent in a mutah marriage.
Also I think you are confusing misyar marriage and muttah marriage as to what is performed in Egypt. I must admit I knew about Misyar marriage during the brief reaserch. Misyar marriage is considered halal because it fulfils all the requirements of a valid contract, some of which mutah marriage does not fulfil. In a Misyar marriage, the spouses in essence agree to waive some of the rights (marital of finacial) due them in a typical marriage. Now I cannot find a hadith or quranic ayat that backs up misyar marriage but the overwhelming majority of the scholars in islamic jurisprudence have agreed that misyar marriage is halal becauae it fulfils all the requirements of a valid marriage. Allah know best and could those who know more enlighten us more. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
Edited by - mansasulu on 10 Aug 2007 17:38:33 |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2007 : 17:15:40
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quote:
Originally posted by mansasulu
Kayjatta, let me start of by stating that I AM NOT A ISLAMIC SCHOLAR but a student trying to know more about islam as I try to answer your questions. I did a little bit of research and what I found is that Mutah marriage is not allowed under any circumstances today simply because it does not fulfil all the requirements of valid marriage contract under islamic law. For a marriage to be valid among other things, at least two witnesses have to be present, a representative (wali) of the woman has to be present, and the said marriage has to be devoid of any stipulated or fixed period. All these are absent in a mutah marriage.
Also I think you are confusing misyar marriage and muttah marriage as to what is performed in Egypt. I must admit I knew about Misyar marriage during the brief reaserch. Misyar marriage is considered halal because it fulfils all the requirements of a valid contract, some of which mutah marriage does not fulfil. In a Misyar marriage, the spouses in essence agree to waive some of the rights (marital of finacial) due them in a typical marriage. Now I cannot find a hadith or quranic ayat that backs up misyar marriage but the overwhelming majority of the scholars in islamic jurisprudence have agreed that misyar marriage is halal becauae it fulfils all the requirements of a valid marriage. Allah know best and could those who know more enlighten us more.
brother mansa , you are correct in your narative. mutah marriage is just like what some our folks do when in europe and u.s .they find a woman to marry for documents and paper of resident and after they acquire this resident papers ,all of a suden the marriage is on rock and end up in devorce .why is this cases so many ? simple the men go into the relationship with a pre-concieve plan to end it all after accomplishing a target strategy .
similarly mutah marriage is usually practice a by sect of shia on a journey ,it is hardly practice in home countries .thet reason this people give is to avoid adultry whilst on journey or in foriegn land. but what happen to children they have with those women ? in the case of our own paper seeking marreid brothers and sisters what happen to children they have with the women ? so logicaly and islamicaly mutah is haram .period. marriage doesn't need to hinge on a term limit . |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2007 : 07:31:30
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Thanks Mansasulu. Good explanations. Muttah marriage is outragious. It is similar to what is called in American family law as "sham marriages". They are void.
Santafara also brought up an issue of "our folks...marrying for the paper". These marriages also qualify as sham marriages , but it has to be said that it is hard to proof that case in court because most courts look for the proof of "intent to marry" at the time of marriage. If the couple atleast live together for some time , this in most cases satisfies the "intent to marry" requirement . So the marriage may be recognized by law.
Thanks for all your contributions.
Disclaimer:This communication is not a legal advice. If anyone needs legal advice please consult an attorney. |
Edited by - kayjatta on 13 Aug 2007 08:33:54 |
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