 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
|
|
kayjatta
2978 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jun 2010 : 08:02:04
|
You know people who advocate for a unique African
democracy just do not make sense to me at all.
What is an African democracy? What is culture?
Democracy is widely believed to have originated
in ancient Greece, and has since been adopted by
countries across the globe (U.S., Western Europe,
as well as some success stories in parts of
Africa and Asia).
Of course the original practice of democracy has
evolved over the years in different countries
for example the U.S. and the U.K. systems are
slightly different, but the concept (liberty,
equality, rule of law, accountability, ...)
remains the same. I do not know
what is in African culture that cannot accept
liberty, equality, rule of law, and accountability?
What is it?
Africans ( and to some extent Asians)will have to
embrace democracy or forever live in dictatorship;
there is no middle way. The so-called African
"Direct Democracy" (example Gaddaffi's Lybia)
turns out to be nothing but dictatorshp and tyranny.
What is happeneing in Africa, is not a
"cultural resistance" to democracy, but rather a
lack of "mass awakening". If African culture can
successfully absorb Western Christianity and
Asian Islam, what could stop it from absorbing
democracy? Are Africans different from other people?
I do not think so! The failure of governance in Africa
is not due to incompatibility of democracy to
African culture, it is instead the failure of leadership
to empower the citizens and further their
political consciousness. Power, at least political
power is not transacted, but obtained by coercion.
The author mentioned the noble role of the Chiefs and
argued that the chieftancy should be strengthened.
Well the part of the world I come from, the chiefs
are a remnant of colonial dictatorship, and up to
today the chiefs have monarchical powers beyond
the scrutiny of the citizens. They are not
accountable to anyone.
I would like to end by asking this author and his
like-minded people to please go into detail about
how this unique African democracy will look like,
because as far as I know even Chairman Jammeh (the Gambia's president and a staunch opponent of "Western Democracy")
has given up on his African Democracy project. |
Edited by - kayjatta on 23 Jun 2010 08:23:30 |
 |
|
|
toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2010 : 11:23:18
|
Kay,What a first class well thought out posting,such clarity and so simple ( ) to understand,this is how bantaba in cyberspace should be.
I especially am very impressed by these words that you have used :
"I would like to end by asking this author and his
like-minded people to please go into detail about
how this unique African democracy will look like" 
I look forward greatly to the response which I hope will be a personal expression of thoughts and feelings,(quotes, and links welcome in moderation  )
Well Done Thanks,I wish that I could operate on the higher plane of discussion that you use. That is not possible because "I am not an Att. etc "
|
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
|
Edited by - toubab1020 on 23 Jun 2010 11:25:50 |
|
|
|
kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2010 : 11:45:13
|
Thanks Toubab. This is what I am good at(oops now I am
blowing my own trumpet...): discussing real stuff. I only get 'stupid' when my UDP opponents drag me into name
calling and vicious personal attacks... ,
something I am never good at and always regret... |
Edited by - kayjatta on 23 Jun 2010 11:57:06 |
|
|
|
toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2010 : 12:40:35
|
"my UDP opponents drag me into name
calling and vicious personal attacks...,
something I am never good at and always regret..."
When you have nothing to say yourself when asked a question its always a good tactic to batter those who you disagree with, unfortunatly happens a great deal on Bantaba,I am still waiting to read something clear and concise on Policies etc. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
|
Edited by - toubab1020 on 23 Jun 2010 12:43:03 |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2010 : 14:08:53
|
Kay
quote:
If African culture can
successfully absorb Western Christianity and
Asian Islam, what could stop it from absorbing
democracy? Are Africans different from other people?
I do not think so! The failure of governance in Africa
is not due to incompatibility of democracy to
African culture, it is instead the failure of leadership
to empower the citizens and further their
political consciousness. Power, at least political
power is not transacted, but obtained by coercion.
No need to single out Africa. Other regions also have similar struggles. It is not that Africans are different from other people, other nations too, from Latin America, to Middle east, from South Asia to Polynesia, have different social, historical, cultural and political experience than western nations, when you review their transition to democracy. Not only Africans are struggling integrating democracy, today, Middle Eastern, Latin America, Asian nations, most non-western nations have their unique and own struggles. The ‘path to the democracy’ is different for each one. So it is not about Africans are being different people. it is the nations other than ‘Western Nations’, their transition to democracy were different.
Look at Europe for example. Democratization of Europe has the roots to renaissance and secularism reform started 1500s which was feudalist before. After three hundred years of process to capitalist economy, west had bourgeoisie class, labor and mid class demanded democracy from the aristocracy. Nationalism was born along with the democracy. Blood spilled.
Did Africans, Latin Americans or Middle East have similar journey? I am not sure about that. Since the context is Africa in this discussion, I refer Africa from now on. Do Africa have a capitalist and strong middle class who will demand the economic rights? Africa still did not complete the capitalist revolution which were essential why Europe particularly had experienced the ‘social and economic’ class that demanded the democracy. Did Africa have similar path so far?
The economic wealth generated based on slavery and colonization was big part of economic boom in western world that caused massive wealth. Did Africa have the same economical background that generated wealth, that generated higher life expectancy, social advancement, better human capital that support the democratic transition?
Secularism? Do you think African culture ‘successfully’ absorb western Christianity and Asian Islam? And what was the process for Islamization or Christianization? Particularly Christianity, when Africa observing the ‘religion’ do they also absorb the secularism or only absorb the ‘spiritual doctrines of Christianity’?
Particularly Europe has the ‘nationhood’, the borders drawn naturally. Do African states have ‘nationhood’ which characterized by the ‘common language’, ‘natural border’ like for example ‘France’ , ‘Germany’ where French people live in France, Germans live in Germany. Or do Africans still have tribes and they are far from nationhood we observe in western history. There is not Mandinka Republic.
So maybe ultimate goal democracy remains same, but the path to democracy may have a completely different route. So, I think the pictures ‘democracy and how it relates to Africa is much more different than your optimistic view.
|
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 24 Jun 2010 05:27:00 |
|
|
|
kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2010 : 14:57:12
|
You have raised many important points that I would like to come back to, Turk. But for now I would just point out that the article you have posted is not about the "path to democracy", it is about the substance of democracy. It is not about process or methodology, it is about the body of democracy.
My position is that Western democracy is not incompatible with African culture as the author would like to argue. |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2010 : 15:29:39
|
The link(s) I provided are focusing on different perspectives on democracy particularly 'democracy experiences in Africa' and 'Obsession of democracy and its hindering on development'.
Maybe I should have the title 'Is Africa on a right path towards democracy?'
Our common denominator for start that I, also, reject the idea that democracy or any ideology or a religious doctrine incompatible with any culture as well. I mean you are perfectly fine being hindu, you just have to give up steak which is the 'lone menu' in USA. If one human does it, there is no reason for another human could not adopt. However, the path to it collectively, timing, versions, localization of democracy, experiences will be different based on the different economic, social, political and historical aspects. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 23 Jun 2010 17:33:27 |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2010 : 15:43:40
|
I will give you a few example to highlight the importance of economic development that generates wealth, significant mid-class social class and that demands the freedom. Even see Chili, Spain, Portugal, Turkey, Greece, Italy, Korea which are the countries having anti-democratic tendencies toward liberal democracy completely changed when they accomplished wealth based on capitalism. Pinochet, Franco, all c.u.n.t.as in Greece all have completed capitalism and improved wealth than democracy was much smoother with the better wealth. I am not directly linking wealth but the combination of wealth and capitalist, modern mid class. Do not give me example about Gulf States that have enormous wealth, as they have their religious and traditional, tribalism which causing the resistance to smooth democratic transition.
So is wealth, capitalist, modern, urban social class are basic requirement for democracy?
You see, most democratic demands coming from within our community here, from the diaspora or within Gambia, professional i.e. lawyers, businessmen, technocrats or people particularly living in urban area. Not much from rural area. So, is there a relation between 'modern, capitalist, urbanized class' and 'demanding democracy'.
I have discussed this before. Gambian's situation combination 'wealth', 'history', 'tribalism', 'religion', 'lack of capitalist social class', 'lack of secularism or liberal secularism as the nature of islam or radical secularism promotes intolerance ', 'short history as independent', 'urban/modern/mid-income/professional social class', 'nationhood based on common language, history', 'leadership' maybe reasons for having difficult path towards democracy. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 23 Jun 2010 17:35:58 |
|
|
|
Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2010 : 20:42:17
|
Joseph Ki-Zerbo
… ‘thinking under the iron rule of a foreign power amounts to not thinking at all’….
….. the issue at stake is to make individual African(s) … aware that they are capable of thinking and that ‘thought can only develop by itself’. All development is from the self to the self: this is the essence …in making each person discover his or her power and wealth before seeking it in others, whether they be professors or foreign powers.
KAS: What is your personal experience of combining research and politics?
There is no fundamental contradiction, especially as a research policy is the basis of any process of general development. There are two examples of fields of research which are also areas for political choices if we wish to achieve development in Africa:
a) Research in and use of national languages in teaching;
b) Research and public health policy for the majority of the population, as regards the sorts of pharmacopoeia to be used—while avoiding the use of the term ‘ethno-medecine’.
Some of us have come into research as a result of our political involvement. To end the use of the colonisers’ school-books and the phrase: ‘Our ancestors, the Gauls’, we had to undertake research, read thousands of books, and travel the length and breadth of dozens of African countries. Our first school-books were duplicated lecture notes. But we have contributed to proving that Africa is the cradle of Mankind. Nowadays it is the Europeans who should speak of ‘Our ancestors, the Africans’.
|
Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2010 : 22:00:07
|
Are Gambians informed about political issues? Do all Gambians have access to issues via TV, newspaper to participate in politics? How is the participation of public in politics in Gambia in terms of communication between political parties and public? And how are parties different from each other. Is it a ideological difference, for example Party A is left, higher government spending, Part B is lower government spending, conservative? Do we have parties with different political ideology or it is just ‘my team is better than your team’. What the public make political choice based on ideology and party policies or personalities?
Do voters vote based on issues or based on Public Relation and tactics. Or tribe.
If politicians, seem like, this maybe situation in Gambia from ‘Intellectuals’, ‘cities’, there is a danger of marginalization of massive groups for example in country side. Will they have opportunity to participate in politics? I am not sure in Gambia, rural area are involved in politics as much. Or other groups are marginalized is women. Do women have opportunity to involve in politics?
Here is one proposal for Gambia. (Brainstorming). Since there is no ideological differences in parties, why not election without parties for Gambia! Like municipal politics. Only individuals are candidates, when they elect, they have to work in common good for legislation. For the administration, why not presidential system with again based on the individual candidacy.
quote:
Political instability
More recently, democracy is criticised for not offering enough political stability. As governments are frequently elected on and off there tend to be frequent changes in the policies of democratic countries both domestically and internationally. Even if a political party maintains power, vociferous, headline grabbing protests and harsh criticism from the mass media are often enough to force sudden, unexpected political change. Frequent policy changes with regard to business and immigration are likely to deter investment and so hinder economic growth. For this reason, many people have put forward the idea that democracy is undesirable for a developing country in which economic growth and the reduction of poverty are top priority.
|
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2010 : 22:02:53
|
For example, Singapore has a system which is different...... See below....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Singapore
Some ideas.....
Gambia may have two level of government system which may be more horizontal. Local Governments should have more powers and it should be based on non-party system. Decentralization is key. The idea is to move power to local government from the central government. This may help to political participation.
Legislative:
The current system should be preserved and there should be still national parliament is responsible for national legislation. But city/town/village councils should also have legislative organ to address the legislative needs for its increasing duties for municipal governments.
Administrative:
President should remain the control military, national police, immigration, foreign relations, trade, Energy, agriculture etc.
Local governments should take over education and health and other local services. Central government should have audit and complimentary services to balance the gap between different regions.
Roads, Energy, infrastructure services should be shared.
Local government should also have security services for traffic, petty crime, parking, trading control.
Judiciary: Current system should remain with the exception of Kadi Courts. Kadi courts should be under local governments.
|
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 24 Jun 2010 18:22:01 |
|
|
|
kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 22:59:27
|
| Is that the "African Democracy" you guys are calling for? |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 23:44:04
|
| No. I am open to discussion. It is specifically for Gambia. A country less than 1.5 Million people. A small city. Are you calling for USA presidential republic system for gambia? Or swiss model with federal state? In case you have not noticed, Gambia does not much commons with any western democracy, socially, economically, historically different. Instead of getting a big dress for a fat woman and trying to fit a slim man, my approach is understand the size so i can produce a custom that fits. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 24 Jun 2010 23:46:02 |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 04:21:46
|
You missed some points, mr. einstein, that would address some issues in Gambia.
- Decentralization: Instead of power to be in central/one man (mostly case in Africa) decentralized horizontal government, would also decentralize the power. Aren't you all complaining about the absolute power at top?
- How a woman with no literacy who is 20 hours from Banjul, who have no electricity and TV participate in Politics. She can't read newspaper. And, the politics is monopolized by high class/educated/elite in Gambia. There isn't any way she will have a voice. De-centralization may help her to involve little bid more; as it is familiar setting, local government, local people, local technocrats, more accessible government. She might have more involvement in local village, town if the local government has power sharing with the central government in areas like education, health, community services, commerce, policing etc.
quote:
If African culture can
successfully absorb Western Christianity and
Asian Islam, what could stop it from absorbing
democracy? Are Africans different from other people?
I do not think so! The failure of governance in Africa
is not due to incompatibility of democracy to
African culture, it is instead the failure of leadership
to empower the citizens and further their
political consciousness.
So then, why leadership is being failed? Why are they failing to empower the citizens? What is the reason behind it? Your theory is the failure of democracy is africa from the leaders? So where are those people are coming from? Are they being imported from Mars? Or are they part of the African society/culture too? Why aren't people stand against the leaders?
My theory is the circumstances, social, economic, historical and cultural factors have big impact for the failure? I think your leaders are indirectly related to social,cultural structure as well. When you say the leaders, these leaders and their supporters are from the community which is your socio-economic reality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 25 Jun 2010 07:26:59 |
|
|
|
jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 13:15:49
|
democracy would be good for Africa if it was practised. If democracy is freedom of choice and each voice is equal, Africa fails on so many levels.
regligious, financial, geographical, social, educational, you name it, its on a list.
When you say the leaders, these leaders and their supporters are from the community which is your socio-economic reality |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| Bantaba in Cyberspace |
© 2005-2024 Nijii |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
