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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 15:47:50
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quote:
Originally posted by jambo
When you say the leaders, these leaders and their supporters are from the community which is your socio-economic reality
Yeah, many blame 'politicians' and 'leaders'. It is like these people come from Mars. I mean these people probably your father, mother, brothers, sisters, husbands, neighbors, friends. If there is a failed leadership, these leaders are coming from the within society, that means society is not able to produce leaders, politicians, technocrats. The problem is not about 'individuals', it is structural. Africa needs to be able to find a system that fits.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 17:15:34
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| How do you guarantee Gambia politics not to turn to a oligarchy? One example is the elitist/intellectuals control the politics and isolated groups like women, rural area, uneducated can't involve? |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 17:24:36
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turk,
I find it difficult to understand the shifting between Gambia and Africa, between Africa and Gambia. Hence, Africa is a continent and Gambia a country in it.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 17:36:59
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| Right, Gambia is in Africa last time I checked. I am not sure why you are confused. Gambia has the inherited characteristics of Africa while it also have specific/unique characteristics of its own i.e. the size of the country. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 25 Jun 2010 20:28:21 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 22:20:48
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turk,
are you saying Gambia's problem is Africa's problem and Africa's problem is Gambia's problem?
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 23:10:50
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No. I said Gambia inherits some of the characteristics of African continent which are common to countries in Africa. And, also, it has its unique characteristics.
For example when you consider Africa and Europe, one of the characteristics is Africa having lower GDP per capita and HDI, Europea is having higher GDP per capita and HDI. Gambia has the similar characteristics of most African nations which is lower GDP per capita.
At the same time, Gambia is the smallest country with not much natural resources. This is its distinguish characteristic. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 25 Jun 2010 23:32:39 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 23:40:14
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"I said Gambia inherits some of the characteristics of African continent which are common to countries in Africa..."
You mean there are specific "African characteristics", give example and who said? |
Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2010 : 00:06:20
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Look above for example. Or...
- Europe in general has higher GDP per capita. Africa has lower GDP per capita. Who said. The economics sciences said it.
- Europe HDI, in general highest, African HDI, in general, lower.
- Literacy rate for Europe is higher, for Africa lower.
Are you disputing these statements?
- Historically, most African states were colony until recently. General characteristics.
- Europe were far from foreign occupation exception in some Balkan states by Turks.
Top countries in Education Index 30 --> 24 are European
Bottom countries in Educaiton Index 30 --> 24 are African
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
Full Democracy 23 out of 30 European
Hybrid/Authoritarian Regime 40 out of 88 African and most of them middle Eastern.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 26 Jun 2010 00:35:20 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2010 : 01:19:17
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turk,
So, thats African characteristics according to economic science. This is the problem, taking a yardstick developed elsewhere to measure all aspects of development in Africa as if that yardstick is absolute. It is applicable to a whole continent, despite, the diversity; social, political, economical. This is the position of a well-wisher that does not take the need of those wished well into consideration. On the one hand you are arguing for an "African Democracy" and on the other measuring "African Quality" with none African values ...
Relativism
"Relativism is the idea that some elements or aspects of experience or culture are relative to, i.e., dependent on, other elements or aspects. Common statements that might be considered relativistic include:
"That's true for you but not for me."
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."
"You can't judge other cultures by the standards of your own."
Some relativists claim that humans can understand and evaluate beliefs and behaviors only in terms of their historical or cultural context. There are many forms of relativism which vary in their degree of controversy.
[1] The term often refers to truth relativism, which is the doctrine that there are no absolute truths, i.e., that truth is always relative to some particular frame of reference, such as a language or a culture. ...
One argument for relativism suggests that our own cognitive bias prevents us from observing something objectively with our own senses, and notational bias will apply to whatever we can allegedly measure without using our senses. In addition, we have a culture bias—shared with other trusted observers—which we cannot eliminate... |
Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2010 : 01:58:59
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quote:
our own cognitive bias prevents us from observing something objectively with our own senses
quote:
that truth is always relative to some particular frame of reference
You disqualify me being non-african. I can disqualify you because you are african. lol. I think your being biased is the biggest obstacle for you,an african, to debate on africa. :)
This is valid for you too. You could be biased to observe yourself objectively. You could be in denial. On the other hand, I could have different angle.
Besides I am not 'judging' African culture. I am not saying it is bad or good. I am saying African culture is not same as the european culture that has established the democracy. I am relating the African culture and its socio-economic realities are different from the process of western world to accomplish democracy.
Also, I am confused with your stand. You are telling me that 'my measurement for development is absolute. It is not African values. However, are you claiming 'democracy' is African value? So GDP per capita, HDI etc, mathematical figures... can't be used for the argument for democracy and Africa? But democracy can be the ultimate objective of Africa even though it is not African culture? I am very confused with your argument, janko. You are saying I can't use GDP per capita, HDI and other non-african measurements because they are not African. But Africa can accomplish 'democracy' even though it is not african. Come again please?
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 26 Jun 2010 02:24:01 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2010 : 02:23:57
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turk,come again, please
"Développement endogen"
Humans can improve only in terms of their historical or cultural context. Therefore you can not measure the "Quality" of "African Democracy" with a yardstick developed outside her historical context.
Now, are we talking about Africa or Gambia? Is very important to decide because they are not interchangeable, as you very well know.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2010 : 02:28:36
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Janko
You misunderstood me. I am not measuring the quality of africa democracy. I am specifying the obstacles for Africa to accomplish the democracy. My yardstick (which you claimed to be invalid as it was developed outside of africa) is being used to measure democracy (which is also developed outside of africa)
I am talking about Africa whose values are inherited by Gambia and specifically Gambia (Which is very natural as Gambia is an African country)
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2010 : 10:43:15
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turk,
are we talking about Gambia or Africa? Gambia and Africa are not interchangeable. Gambia´s problem is not necessarily Africa's.
Secondly, your personal Gambia-experience is not necessarily an African -experience. |
Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2010 : 14:45:28
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Janko
You are focusing something very insignificant. There are many issues I raised so far you did not address any of them. You are selective what you want to address. Gambia's problem is not necessarily Africa's. I already acknowledge that. Why are you still coming back. I said, Gambia has its unique/specific issues. Also, I have been to and worked many west african states for example, Senegal, Guinea, Guinea Bissau, Liberia, Sierre Leone, Ghana, Mali from 2004 to 2006. Gambia is not the only country I know. Gambia's experience in some areas showing very similar characteristics with other African countries. I want to understand where are you going with this though. What is it that so significant that Gambia is not linked to the African's common issues. Explain why Africa and Gambia can't be discussed interchangeably in an issues with socio-economic, political, historical dimension? Give me example, specific argument.
Let me summarize my stand now.
Western Democracy has been established after long process that includes Renaissance and Reform in religion followed by industrial revolution/capitalist revolution that generate bourgeoisie further middle socio economic class that strength the democracy. Democracy has man dependencies such as wealth, education of individuals, technology, ethnic makes up of nation, traditions, historical experiences etc.
Gambia’s intension to establish democracies are hindered not having this process experienced by western democracies like many other countries in the world from Middle East to Latin America, from Africa to South Asia.
Like many other African countries, Gambia is a former colony. Its borders not natural and had many ethnic groups. Most people still feel their religion or tribe more important than the ‘nationhood’. (Janko has some arguments relates to it.) Democracy has dependencies on nationhood. As ethnic diversity, when it is negative, cause instability and may undermine the democratization process. In many African countries ethno-religious conflict were much worse. Fortunately, while it is still obstacle for democratization process, Gambia did not suffer from it violently.
To establish a healthy government system and democracy, wealth is significant. Like many other African countries, Gambia also had lower GDP per capita, HDI which are obstacle for democratization process. Lack of Government services, know-how of public administration, lack of government resources i.e. paying decent salaries are causing many obstacles like corruption of administrative and judiciary organs.
There are many obstacles in participation of democracy. Women’s lack of receiving social services, low literacy in general, lack of communication channels like TV, newspaper, radio, internet are obstacle to be aware and participate in political process. Politics is still dominated by elite/educated in Gambia.
Gambia is still traditional and there is no medium class and capitalist/modern socio-economic groups.
So one can claim (janko) that the measurements/methodology which were developed out of Gambia for democracy mentioned above can’t be applied. However, western democracy is also foreign concept.
My theory is, Gambia needs to establish a government system based on its unique needs and realties. The ultimate path could be the democracy standardized in western democracy but the Gambia will have different path. The path to the democracy should not hinder the development of Gambia.
Many countries i.e. China, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Turkey have prioritize economic development before the democratization as democracy may hinder the democracy. As the infrastructure and socio-economic conditions get better, the better government system, democracy will naturally fit in. It is a long path.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 26 Jun 2010 16:51:36 |
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