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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Mar 2009 : 05:05:26
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After Obama visited Canada officially last month, he will be travelling to London for g20 meeting, France for NATO meeting, Prague for EU meeting.
A Nato member, EU candidate, Muslim nation Turkey is the first country Obama choose to visit after Canada. Isn't it best way to promote the democracy, market economy and cooporation in islamic country and avoid the clash of civilazation.
Turkey proved that democracy and secularism work in a muslim country who have functioning market economy while having good relationship with west and islamic world.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2009 : 14:34:10
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| Turk, if democracy and secularism worked in Turkey, I am wondering where that leaves islam. I dont think secularism and islam could work. I think there is a lot for Turkey to decide as to where its priorities actually lie. Case in point is the EU's refusal or shall say reluctance to let Turkey be part of the Union. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2009 : 20:59:51
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Religion is collective or individual spiritual experience. The ultimate objective is to experience higher power, Allah. It sets moral values we individually and collectively accept this test for the life after death. Islam is submission one to Allah. It is an ultimate objective, goal.
Democracy is a tool about how you administrate your government.
In Islam, there is a concept of ‘gathering’ and ‘consensus’ which has common base with the democracy.
Ash-Shura: 42:38 Waallatheena istajaboo lirabbihim waaqamoo alssalata waamruhum shoora baynahum wamimma razaqnahum yunfiqoona
Ash-Shura: 42:38 Those who hearken to their Lord, and establish regular Prayer; who (conduct) their affairs by mutual Consultation; who spend out of what We bestow on them for Sustenance.
As a social science concept, the management of nation, Democracy can be compatible with Islam. Having election and to bring the one candidate over other candidate is Islamic. Or having consensus over administrative decision also Islamic. Because, it is just how we adminstrate communities. There is nothing unislamic.
There are two different concepts here.
One is Islam and Democracy. The second is Islam and Secularism.
I want you to distinguish between democracies as ‘the administrative science’ compatible with Islam, but ‘judicially’ there may be overlaps by Islamic Law and non-Islamic law.
Because, there are areas particularly if you see democracy as pure administrative, democracy and Islam very much compatible.
So your point, 'Islam not being compatible with Democracy' is invalid, but your point that Islam may not be compatible with secular law is valid.
In terms of moral values, Islamic moral values are set, on the other hand secular moral values changes. Islam gives us freedom to sin. Obviously we will be punished for the sin we commit after death. For example, if the local law sets the adultery is allowed, as a Muslim you have a freedom to commit adultery or not. That is your choice. Again, if you commit adultery you will be burn in hell. You will be punished. If not, allah will reward you inshallah. Islam provides this flexibility.
I want to clarify and specify where Islam and democracy and secularism are not compatible.
What happens if there is a reference in Islam for setting rule for before death? This is your point is valid. As a Muslim, for example, you expect the law to punish adultery before death, but secular law may be different. These are the areas where islam and secularism (the law based on people consensus) conflict. You are so right this is the area Islam and secularism do not work together.
If that is the case, I use another principle of Islamic Law. Respect the local law. If the majority is not Islamic, Muslim has duty to respect the local law. A Nation can be Muslims but if the majority chooses the secular principles, as Muslim you have options to live in that society and you obey the local law. You may work hard to change the local law, but as long as the majority IS NOT choosing the local law, you are living under non-islamic authority. Than respect and obey local law.
Let us discuss this more.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2009 : 23:51:32
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Turk, if you look at all the "democratic societies" you will see that the system is based on the premise of separation of church (religion) and state. There is a constant struggle to identify a "democratic state" on its secular ideas and principles. Since secularism and democracy are inherently intertwined, it is for that reason that I believe that islam is incompartible to democracy.
A secular society is always trying to find ways to take religion out of the affairs of the state. This is currently the struggle Turkey is faced with. Trust me if Islam had less or very little influence on Turkish society, you guys would have been members of the EU by now. There is this lingering mistrust of Turkey's islamist influence in the west. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 00:22:29
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I see your point on that and I alread acknowledged the secularism issue. You are right, secular idea will eventually conflict with Islam. My counter point is that, if the majority of people in a muslim country do not believe in Islam as a law for daily life, then, there is no point to force islam in that society. May I remind you that islam requires submission from the heart. If majority of people in a muslim country do believe in Islam while having democracy they can apply islamic principle in the 'law of the nation'.
I am seperating different stages.
Islam and individual
Islam and collective
Islam and democracy
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Further Islam and Judiciary. This stage is the point where islam and secular principles do not co-exist. In this case I look at the majority, if majority chooses the secular ideas, that means these people do not have submission to islam anyway, so there is no point to force islamic values to them.
I will address specific points about Turkey later on.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 13:36:15
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I am in no way advocating for islam to be forced on anybody, nation or society. The point I am trying to make is that if the majority of any muslim society do not believe in the islamic system as an adequate stand alone system of government, they should follow what ever system they want, but not try to make a case that islam is compartible with that system, in this case democracy.
You see the concept of the will of the majority which is fundamental to a democracy provides am open door policy for the creation of laws which may be the total opposite of what the Quran says. There is always bound to be a point where islam says one thing, and the majority decides to do the exact opposite. Trust me this problem of indecisiveness is a problem in many muslim societies. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 19:38:36
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Christianity could have the same issue as Islam has. Look at abortion, homosexual rights and many other issues Christianity and secular government conflicts as well. Islam seems to have more conflict with the secularism because the democracy/secularims were introduced more recently, that is why. So the problem is not really Islam vs secularism. It is more like Religion vs. Secularism.
You are right though, there will be point that the creation laws which may be total opposite of what the 'holy book' says. In this case, there is no compatibility. Religion has its own absolute truth unlike secularism.
But I am more focused on individual. Even a secular society have a rule which may be against the islam and your value, you can still practise your religion. If adultery is allowed in the society, you have a choice about it. This what it matters to me most personally. Religion is individual guidence for us. Collectiveness may not be that important for me. If a society choose to be secular, it is a collective decision which has to be respected. Submission to islam by the majority is the most important requirement for the islamic system. A secular society where the individual live religion not a perfect but acceptable state for me.
In Turkey, we have 99 percent muslim, but if there was an referendum on sharia, the percentage may go to 10 percent. I think similar for many other muslims nations. If that is the case, we might focus on liberal secularism which gives individuals maximum space for their religion. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 13:52:35
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| Turk I am really having a tough time understanding some of your logic. I believe you will be surprised how many people will decide to choose shariah over secularism if it were put to a vote. The basic idea of secularism (democracy) is to completely eviserate the influence of religion from state affairs. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 20:50:04
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Mansa
We have a political parties advocating sheria in turkey. It gets a few percentage of votes. No support. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 22:07:23
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| If I may ask 2 questions, how will you vote if the question of Shariah is put to a vote and why will you vote that way? |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 21:34:24
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mansa
Tough question. I am not sure how I would answer. I will not give you an answer but let me see what I would consider.
First I would consider the nation I am living. For Turkey, knowing the Turks being more secular, I would not think shariah would work. In order sharia to work, it requrires majority sincerely believe in the sharia. It requires submission to the God. Turks are not. So it will be failure to implement sharia because, there will not be believer.
I am not sure if there are any community in the world where sharia would work, but it may have better chance with more conservative people.
Personally, I usually focus my own spiritual experience. Other people is not my business. I do believe in secular society may threaten my belief but not significantly, I believe regardless of the system, I can still focus on my spirituality.
There are 6 requirements for our iman. And 5 pillars. Nothing stop you to fulfill these requirements. Wheather if there is sharia or not will not change you can be a muslim the way allah ask you to, or the way you want to be.
I appreciate your consistency in terms of Islam and your choice in government system. Sharia may not be successful if there is no believer like you.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 13 Mar 2009 21:37:35 |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 21:43:33
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| Thanks for the dialogue. I really enjoyed it. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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