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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 23:05:57
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
janko
quote:
I had only a few, very a few Gambians who would be critical about Gambia.”
Let me simplyfy. If I have talked to 100 people and 63 of them defend their president with so much passion, 19 % did not provide any critism or not defended and stayed neutral. 8 % provided some objection, the rest were critical about Gambian direction under Jammeh. :)
When provide critism on Jammeh in Gambia during my relatives and friends, many defend him with so much energy and passion. The point is, many gambians have the same ideals as Jammeh. So, when someone make critism for him, he or she must include the critism of people who share his ideas. In fact, majority of Gambian do support Jammeh.
quote:
That is why Gambians have to blame Jammeh. So your position needs shifting in the interest of fairness.
. You may be right that Gambian have to blame Jammeh. But do they know any better? Perhaps they do not blame him because gambians share his ideals. Besides fairness, I have to be realistic. I may have objection about Jammeh, but it is unfair to target him, because people actually supporting him sharing his values as well.
Turk,
The simple answer why Gambians have to blame Jammeh is because he is the current occupant of a position charged with that singular role.
You mentioned about number of Gambians READING NEWSPAPERS. That questions fits all countries of this planet Earth. You will be disappointed if your expectation is that majority of Gambians do not read NEWSPAPERS because in your good views they are illiterate or backward. You sound as if information for public consumption flows only by newspapers. I can confirm without any risk of exageration that lot of people in DEVELOPED countries are not READING NEWSPAPERS. If that is your measuring stick for assessing public consumption of information, you may want to trade in for something else. Lot of people dump newspapers or stamp on them in trains, buses, and public places without caring to glance. That may be happening in Gambia too.
Gambians will continue blaming anyone who feeds on tax payer resources and not getting the job done like Bob The Builder. |
Karamba |
Edited by - Karamba on 09 Feb 2009 23:09:14 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 23:21:42
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Karamba
Thanks for your feedback. I have promised to myself that I will not involve with domestic politics of Gambia long time ago. I break my promises. However, I will end this discussion on agreement on disagreement. I do appreciate your critism on jammeh which is valid. However, I do strongly believe that majority of Gambians do like the president and shared his ideals. When social change is forced from the top, it never works. The better governence must be demanded and masses must agree for the change. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 23:44:46
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Turk,
On your most polite note, I will not consider your discussion of domestic Gambian politics as uncalled for. It defeats the purpose of diversity in opinion if matters are left torest because of differences in opinion.
The case of Gambia is so pathetic. Here is a man who snatched the seat of president by gun power. Thereafter he continues doing everything to keep playing the game of excesses. Out of that it is possible to build numbers. So your observation about his ground support can be right based on those factors influencing the numbers.
With very open mind, I consider your inputs as relevant and will encourage you to keep posting on Gambian politics just as Gambians deal with issues about other countries. |
Karamba |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 07:48:40
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Karamba
Thanks. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 11:39:25
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Turk, with travel and exposure to other cultures and values, one is expected to know better and know more. But it is rather unfortunate a that a guy who travels like you cannot differenciate between a tyrant and a genuine and sincere head of state. You see, in history those who initiate change for the better where always in the minority. from Jesus to Muhammad, even Moses when he went for his people from the Pharaioh, they weren't ready to leave with him.
I too use to be among those who care-less about the state of affairs in the Gambia. i read about crimes and unsolve murders with the finger prints of the state security, but i go about my business. That is more easier and comfortable. but what i realise is that, man is just a man. if you say nothing when others are treated with injustice, then their is a big part of you lacking in decency. speaking against injustice is not backbiting, i never wish to backbite anyone. to have pataince is a vitue, but God wish us to change our circumstances for the better, and speaking against tyranny is a Religious obligation.
I never intend to work for the givernment. All that i want is let there be institutions and atmosphere were people can make comments about corruptions and unholy behavours by our leaders without fear of jail or murder.
But what you are alluding to is wrong and lacking critical understanding of politics.
Bush lead America into recession, are you saying Americans desserve that by virtue of Bush being their president?
How many people in Gambia have the opportunity to scrutinse jammeh's actions? it is easy none the less for one to be sentimental about Gambian politics. Turky was lead by Attah turk in defense of the nation. he assume leadership role and lead with courage. Yet if he has turn against his own people killing some here, jailing others and insulting some there etc. what will happen to the moral of the his people? the rational behind the statements that "people get the leaders they desserve" is rooted in the concept that, the people accept moral corruption, abandonment of faith, collectively par-takening corruptions and lawlessness. how many Gambians are enjoyng the mismanagement in Yahya's moral bankrupcy? both his own personal desire fullfilments and that of wasting the state funds on his nest in Kanilai. we are not half-humans turk, so please don't insult us. those who can be decieve by some pillars and some road there are all part of the problems. that is why we engage each other here on a daily basis. there are better selfish things one can do, if that is what is desired. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 14:17:22
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turk...!
Even whereas I do not share your viewpoint and that is not because of your position but because of the flimsiness of your arguments, let’s take that to and another post. In this one focus is on the pros and cons of "term limit". Let’s please hold us to that so we learn something at the end of the day.
Don´t you think it is a good beginning to limit how many terms or and how long an individual can sit in office…turk
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 21:13:46
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Janko
you are right. About term limit. It is really depends on the situation. For example, in toronto we have a mayor of a suburb called mississauga. The mayor the lady is well above 80, her name is hazel or something. She does not even campaign. If she is the candidate, she will be elected. So, ideally term limit is not a good idea for those potential politicians who do not have any alternatives.
I totally agree that there must be term limit for those countries, particularly in less developed countries that has more corruption and unstable democracy as the politicians exist not to serve, they are there to be served. Than term limit is required. But if there are no potential abuse, there should not be term limit. But, in turkish we have a saying 'if you run from rain the snow will catch you'. There is not really guarantee that a new guy is going to any better than the old one. I don't want to hear from you guys supporting Jammeh back to presidency in the future :) Nothing is guarantee is the new guy is going to be any better. So, term limit is not big deal. Big deal is not even system. the big deal is the masses to participate in democracy, not only by voting, but being part of decision making process.
For example, I would want Clinton to have another term at least. But did not happen. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 10 Feb 2009 21:22:36 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 21:16:23
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quote:
we are not half-humans turk, so please don't insult us.
Seems like you are the only one who is insulted. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 10 Feb 2009 21:25:00 |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 11:40:53
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
quote:
we are not half-humans turk, so please don't insult us.
Seems like you are the only one who is insulted.
IT MAY SEEMS SO. but what you fail to understand, just because people ignore some of unruely comments doesn't meant, folks took it in. some of us know Turkey, we have bitter and savoury experiences there. so let's not think little of others whilst covering our own backyards. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 19:25:07
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Santa
Is that all you come up with! Unruely comments? Do you have anything to comment about the discussion? Say it. no? Then, do you have to say anything about Turkey? Open a topic and say it.
Let me quote from other posts:
mansa says: quote:
Change has to start from within ourselves. It has to be a bottom up approach. Trust me if you issue a call today for people to rise up against Yahya Jammeh you won't have enough people to answer the call.
and what am I saying?
and santa says:
quote:
You are absutely right that, people need to change for the better
Santa, you actually kinda agree with me. I guess that was your inner Santa.
And momodou says:
quote:
Perhaps you should join one of the opposition parties or form one in order to convince Gambians for a change because I believe 90% or more of the population whether in the country or abroad are not reading what’s being written in either Cyberspace or in the news papers.
So Mr. santa, my arguement is actually legimate. The above quotes have shared some of the points I am making. Oh, but I am from Turkey and you know turkey and you have bad experience there? Oh, I got it.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 11 Feb 2009 20:53:25 |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 22:09:32
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| turk, may be you are just confusing yourself with your mixed up comments. we are talking about the problem of leaders. and you are talking about blaming the people for having the kind of leaders they have. now this means, your country is different. and we all know, that assertion is wrong and errorneous. you can quote me all you like, but that wouldn't change the facts. your country is in similar situation with us in terms bad leadership. so the people vote hoping that a good leader will emerge but sadly, the leaders choose to be bad and rule ugly. this is the norm in many countries. how can you blame a farmer who hardly knows the semantic of politics? you blame the one who promise them salvation and freedom. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 22:48:14
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Uncle Santa
You summarize the significant differenence between me and you.
You state that: The level of democracy is determined by the leaders. Your approach is top-down.
I state that: The level of democracy is determined by the people. My approach is bottom-up. While leaders are important, however, you don't have anyone to lead, you are in the square one.
Back to the subject. Limit term may not be effective. Today, if Jammeh is gone, who else is coming. Can you guarantee a new leader is going to be any better. The new leader has to deal with the same issues, with the same civil servant, with the same economy. You rely on 'one' thing too much. You are on the shakey ground. You are on unstable ground if the democracy depends on the leader. Leaders and democracy are just one of the many tools to make the nation to the another level.
You say I blame. It is hardly blame. What I am saying until the farmer knows about the semantic of politics, there will not be higher democratic standards in Gambia. The farmer must demand and push the better management for Agriculture. If the farmer is not qualified for it, the politician will never do any good. The people must demand. If the farmer does not have the 'will' and 'knowledge' to demand, one politician ain't going to do better.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 00:17:24
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“…The level of democracy is determined by the people. My approach is bottom-up. While leaders are important, however, you don't have anyone to lead, you are in the square one……... Limit term may not be effective. Today, if Jammeh is gone, who else is coming. Can you guarantee a new leader is going to be any better. “
Turk, in your reasoning Clinton would not have left office until the American voters are sure that Bush or the next leader would be better and until then Clinton would stay as president…..20years.
I find your statements above contradicting, hence term limit is not dependent on if or not the coming leader is better or worst. Rather, it is not just democracy at work but also gives chance to new leaders and ideas to be tested democratically.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
Edited by - Janko on 15 Feb 2009 00:19:54 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 01:57:57
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How is it contradiction? That means term limit was not good, because Bush came instead of Clinton. I would rather to be with Clinton with another 8 years rather than having Bush in the office. If democracy is at work, you don't really need a term limit. If democracy is established like western democracies, I don't think there should be any term limit. Not many western democracies have term limit. For example most westministrial system, where the PM holds the real power, there is not term limit.
Western democracies have better platform to decide if the leader holding the power is doing good job or not. If clinton was allowed, he would crush bush and get the third term. Or if the person is not good job, it is much easier to get rid of the leader. So term limit should not be limit for the successfull politician if people have a platform to bring him or her down easily. In case of africa, it is not about better leader, it is about limiting a leader for the a new ideas, it is about the leader who abuse the power.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 15 Feb 2009 02:07:27 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 14:33:39
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Because “term limit” has nothing to do with a good or bad leader or the fear that the next coming leader could be worst, it is a democratic instrument to safeguard the rotation of power and ideas. And the idea of rotating ideas and leadership is more representative of the people than the model of so call good leaders staying in power forever.
It seems as if you are the one “climbing the tree from the top.”
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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