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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
 Posted - 21 May 2008 : 15:26:58
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i posted some few lines on my blog on this interesting topic. i hope brothers like janko,kondo,kay and others can educate us on this one. season writers like karamba,sister omega can also express themsleves here. our politics, music,life style and even food seem to be affected by imported norms. what should we take as western and what should we accept as modern. i believe this two ideas aren't the same. where do we draw the line? read the brief comments i made.
http://www.suntoumana.blogspot.com/
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Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
Edited by - Santanfara on 21 May 2008 15:28:25 |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2008 : 18:28:09
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| I am afraid that this is "progress" weather you live in Africa,THe US or europe (or china for that matter) anywhere,things are being invented and changed all the time ,and the world is a smaller place no one can deny this,you can like "progress" or you can dislike "progress" whichever you choose its up to you but the pressures in everyday life to embrace "progress" are very great indeed,there is no escape if you wish to live in the world of today.If you choose to deny progress then you can become a hermit or a monk or a nun or a holy man and withdraw from the world to concentrate on spiritual matters only.Progress is unstoppable. (should I change my signature to this one?) |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2008 : 23:23:25
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 The leader of the free world set about drumming and dancing, moving his hands from one side to another, holding his palms above his head, and even leading the drums for a few moments; President George W Bush actively taking part in African drumming and dance (ADD) on the White House lawn. (April 25, 2007). In the heydays of anthropology African drumming and dance is not only exotic and primitive but has a rhetorical purpose that draws a demarcation between civilised and uncivilized cultures. Today the perception of the phenomenon has gone beyond rhetoric and become functional and utilized in different spheres of everyday reality.
A clear indication of the presence of potential is exemplified by African music and drumming and dance (culture) produced 100% by Africans, from incubation of the ideas to finish products. How many more products with such potential are not being exploited? Many!
Western and Modern
Western: is a term used by non-westerners in referring to, for example, the colonisers, imperialists, or western-civilization, or western-values, western languages etc.
Modern, from a historical perspective is a concept of differentiating time-lines like agricultural/peasant…Iron Age…Industrialisation/Modernity, of the evolution of western civilisation. Our time is referred to by some as Post-modern era.
If I understand the context you are using Western, you mean imported lifestyle due to the colonial experience and Modern as becoming ourselves, upgrading our cultures and traditions by utilising available “western technologies”, industrialising our lifestyle. For example using solar-technology to harvest and cook our home grown findó and so fort, a kind of self elevation, fang Bondó.
Language is very important for both intellectual and economic freedom. For a people to be able to identify their human dignity and focus on their problems they have to have their language as a tool of analysis. Without their language they loose their self-pride and orientation in the world.
Ngugi´s metaphor for how important language is…
”is to a community what a flower is to a plant. A flower is very beautiful, very colorful, often very delicate. But it is the flower which often readily defines the identity of so many plants. Most important it is the flower which is the carrier of the seeds which make it possible the reproduction of the roots and trunks of that plant. Kill the tree trunk and even the roots but retain the seeds and the tree can reproduce itself. It can, if you like, re-imagine itself. Language which is the carrier of culture is the ultimate and the most primary means of imagination.”
Santanfara; Thanks
I could not resist your call
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2008 : 06:39:02
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| Thanks for that great post Janko. Very informative. |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2008 : 10:09:52
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Santafara, this is an interesting topic.It is a topic that has preoccupied many scholars and has featured a lot in many discussions and academic writings. It appears clear that modernization and westernization are two distinct concepts. Modernization is the idea that societies have a standard pattern along which they evolve from primitive simple origins to higher modern levels of development. Westernization, however, is the process where western cultures come into contact with and influence non-western cultures.This is the process of acculturation.
Western civilization is very much bolstered by technological advancement, because for many technology, commerce (economic advancement), the good life, is the hallmark of westernization.This perhaps is the suggestion by the convergence theorists (see "The End of History", by Frances Fukuyama). According to this view, there is only one straight path to modernization. This, in my view seems to fall victim of what Alvin Toffler reffered to (in his book, Future Shock, 1970) as "straight line thinking". The cultural variation theorists to which Samuel Huntington belongs, however recognize several distinct civilizations, hence the so-called "clash of civilizations".
I cannot discuss this topic without making mention of Dr. Ali A. Mazrui. Mazrui wrote a great deal about modernization and westernization with regards to the African context. Mazrui himself, a very westernized, Muslim and African, scholar arguably, appears to contend that non-western societies can modernize without first westernizing. Mazrui has observed that "African societies are not the closest to the west culturally, but they are experiencing the most rapid pace of westernization..." (Mazrui, The African Condition: A Political Diagnosis).
The advent of globalization, as characterized by the breakdown of physical barriers, and Toffler's so-called "demise of geography", means that the current trend of cultural mixing is only going to intensify. In the midst of this cultural soup, no culture, including western, remain the same. All cultures change constantly, with new technology, mobility, education, etc. The other point to note here is that there is cultural cleavages even within each given culture. For eaxample, in the USA,there is cultural disparities between the Baby Boomers and the generation Xs and Ys due largely to the influx of new technology and changes in social values. Likewise, in the African setting, cultural disparites exist between the urban dwellers in the Banjul metro and their rural counterparts due largely to differential economic pressures, social mobility, and levels of education. This is perhaps also consistent with the findings of Nurul Islam's studies on Cairo.
In his blog Santafara mentioned cultural symbols such as dress, food, and lifestyle. This is true, but perhaps this is also the greatest indication of the pressures of modernization. That is perhaps why Julius Nyerere, at independence, told his Masai people to put down their loin clothes and wear trousers, because the need for economic development is going to require them to stop nomadism and settle down. Perhaps, those of us in the wetsren world could also testify to the pervasive culture of fast food partly due to a combination of work ethics, lifestyle, and gender dynamics.
Therefore, this topic is as much a developmental issue as it is a cultural issue. There is a college lecturer (highly modernized, oh may be westernized) I know who used to brag about how he uplifted himself from the cattle-farm to
Oxford (U.K.). I know my in-laws are here, the Jallows and the Baldehs...
Thanks for bringing this topic Santafara. I wish I could ramble more, if time had permitted. |
Edited by - kayjatta on 23 May 2008 11:03:36 |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2008 : 14:12:24
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| kay, eventhough i rushing to my jummah prayers, i most thank you for the brilliant and insightful posting.thanks man. also koto janko, your comments are also very relevant. add more if you may. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2008 : 18:39:08
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| kay, i agree with julus that the masai should notice the change of circumstance and wear appropraite cloths. but hey if they are comfortable with lion cloths, so be it. what about the normads in parts of kenya who wear well, ....very little and the women clip their lips. surely ,that should be address. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2008 : 20:59:49
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Good point Santa. Of course, there are still the Dinkas and Nuerr in Southern Sudan, the Masai in East Africa, and to some extent the Fulani in West Africa; all of whom at some point or another practiced nomadism.
Some of these indigenous groups and their culture are preserved because of their relative isolation from the centers of change. many of them, however, have been swept along in the whirl wind of economic and political change that swept across the continent since independence up to now.
There are some schools of thought that argue that any culture that is in existence today is by right modern. But others counter that the modernization of any culture or society perhaps depends on their level of assimilation of modern amenities and technology.
I am sure cultural anthropologists are very interested in preserving these simple societies because, by studying them we can understand a lot about the history and evolution of man both as a biological species and as social being. But it has to be also said that these indigenous societies are a real commodity for missionaries, both Christians and Muslims. These might take us back to Tamsier's arguments again. Once a school, church or a mosque is build for these people, their cultures are threatened. I remember the objection of my grandfather over my dad's sending me to western school; and a young fellow of my boyhood time whose father was asked to decide which high school he would like to attend. After the headmaster read out the names of all the high schools in the Gambia including Muslim High, the father looked into his son's eyes and said "let's take the Muslim". These goes to indicate that cultural change in many cases does not come without resistance. We have perhaps seen these kind of resistance, albeit at a larger scale, in American Indians, the Australian Aborigines, and even the South African Blacks under the Boer settlers. Al Qaeda's activities, and their large support and sympathy in the Arab world, I believe, also is in reaction to what it sees as western takeover of Arab and Islamic culture.
I like to look at the examples of China, Japan, North Korea, and to a lesser extent India. These countries, one can argue, have largely modernized without actually westernizing; thereby giving credence to Mazrui's contention that African societies can modernize without first westernizing.
But it has to be understood that China, Japan, and N.Korea, particularly have shielded themselves from the West for a long time.
However, the recent influx of cars and other technology in China (China has been a bicycle nation)due to its recent economic transformation, is very intriguing. As more and more Chinese interact with the outside world: for education, business, language acquisition, and more, the repercussion could be enormous for this otherwise isolationist nation.
Now, this is what I think: What we call western (westernization), African (Africanization), or Arab (Arabization) are very elusive concepts. Historically, this cultures have not been static. they have all changed a lot, absorbing from one another. Hence Mazrui's "Africa: The Triple Heritage". Also both Western culture and Arab culture absorbed a lot from Greek culture. Therefore, cultural fusion, I believe, is unstoppable. Different cultures existed in the frist place because of their isolation from one another. Now that distance is largely conquered, Alvin Toffler called it the "demise of geography" (A. Toffler, 1970)cultural fusion will become the trend. In short, despite slight cultural variations, modernization (modernity) will be the dominant culture.
Thanks again. |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2008 : 09:15:38
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thanks again kay another interesting slot. a good gambian brother suggested a book on singapure. 'from third to first world'.
i am with masuri as well. we can modernise without overly westernising. we take what modern technology and enhancement has to offer and leave out things alien to our life style and behavour. once you imitate, you either surpass the people you are imitating or you keep making a fool of yourself.
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Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2008 : 10:16:43
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Thanks Kayjatta for the outline.
It is noteworthy that "Mazrui's "Africa: The Triple Heritage" is also a critic of Africa’s alienated self-understanding. An ambiguity coursed by her three heritages, the Arabic/Islam, the Western/Christian/colonial and African, a discontinuity never experienced by any other peoples or continents. She lost all her references to her past which is responsible for her lack of an Africa-centric Heritage/worldview.
You are right about "China, Japan, North Korea have largely modernized without actually westernizing" and this is not only due to their geographical isolation but also their lingual isolation which left them with a sense of continuity that enables them to keep and maintain their Heritage/worldview. And in that way able to clearly define their needs and identify what is exactly needed from other cultures/technologies to solve their immediate needs.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
Edited by - Janko on 25 May 2008 10:21:15 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2008 : 07:34:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Santanfara
thanks again kay another interesting slot. a good gambian brother suggested a book on singapure. 'from third to first world'.
i am with masuri as well. we can modernise without overly westernising. we take what modern technology and enhancement has to offer and leave out things alien to our life style and behavour. once you imitate, you either surpass the people you are imitating or you keep making a fool of yourself.
Yes Santafara, the Gambia can learn a lot from Singapore. The two countries are very similar geographically (size,strategic commercial location, type of government, etc). It happened that last night I was following an anlysis of Singapore as an almost failed state in 1970s, much like Somalia is today. However, Singapore has transformed itself into an economic power house in S.E. Asia.
Singapore's economy is largely based on the re-export trade, tourism and light manufacturing much like the Gambia. Their government is also much like the Gambia's, a defacto one party state with no real separation of powers.
Although Sigapore is skeptical of western culture, English is their official language (and a medium of learning in schools)and both christianity and Islam are deeply rooted there.
What happened to our "Singapore of Africa" dream under Jawara? |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2008 : 07:54:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Janko
Thanks Kayjatta for the outline.
It is noteworthy that "Mazrui's "Africa: The Triple Heritage" is also a critic of Africa’s alienated self-understanding. An ambiguity coursed by her three heritages, the Arabic/Islam, the Western/Christian/colonial and African, a discontinuity never experienced by any other peoples or continents. She lost all her references to her past which is responsible for her lack of an Africa-centric Heritage/worldview.
You are right about "China, Japan, North Korea have largely modernized without actually westernizing" and this is not only due to their geographical isolation but also their lingual isolation which left them with a sense of continuity that enables them to keep and maintain their Heritage/worldview. And in that way able to clearly define their needs and identify what is exactly needed from other cultures/technologies to solve their immediate needs.
Janko, you are absolutely right. Language is a key factor in preserving one's cultural identity. In many cases if the language is lost , the culture is lost also. I think this is the basic point Waa Thiongo tries to make by arguing that African literature should be written in African languages. If I recall,during their early years, PDOIS also had a policy on introducing our local languages along similar lines argued by afrocentric scholars and individuals... |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2008 : 22:56:50
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| kay, you are right pdois has writen some of their material in our local languages. but has janko rightly said, we don't have a serious love for africa and our cultures. i remember hearing sedia speaking with deep wulli ancent. and some mandinkas of the kombos making fun of his usual greetings al ninbara, may be janko can do a good translation of it. we from the bolon or upper part of the gambia always greet with al ninbara whether one is resting or actually from doing baro. we can still to a certain extend use english to redefine our identity as a general medium but individually we can use our different languages to retrace our respective cultures. we still have a big huddles. some favour music in teaching cultures whilst others prefar stoires and narations. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2008 : 08:31:07
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Your point is interesting and valid.
It provokes a discussion to contextualise and make language dynamic.
The humoristic implication of the phrase al ning bara for the Kombonkas is very legitimate due to the situation (political rally) in which it is said, am sure if the same phrase is said in a working situation, for example, people working in the garden it would not have the same satiric tone. What makes it funny or laughable is that it is said in the wrong context.
The question is; is it a dialectical deference, or is Sedia´s usage slang or rhetorical, hence there are other phrases or and words for different circumstances.
Literally al ning bara is:
A = It
Al = You
Ning = And
Bara = Work
Al ning bara = You and work, a phrase said to working people (present continues) It becomes satiric when said in the wrong context, for example to people listening, or sitting, or eating, or sleeping etc.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2008 : 15:47:52
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you are classy janko. but if you are a jaliba listener, you would have heard him priasing his patrons as al ninbara even during his live music concerts. this people aren't working but enjoying themselves and dishing out hard earn cash to jaliba. so al ninbara can have some more connotations.lemons knows all about that.
coming to the subject, african can take from the developed world what can advance us materialistically and leave out the social element which is largely imcompatable with what we know.
africans with european life style tend to behave a certain way. even in the streets of banjul, people can tell such a person is living in the toubaba lands. i don't know whether people ever make such approah to you janko but i have seen it happen to some due to their actions and mannerism. for me, they can't get a clue, i live in few other places. the trick is only wear Gambianise cloths . i have an added advantage of wearing a scole cap and some strange waranbas. i am looked more like an oustasss which i enjoy. i am given seat in vans, and no disturbance .why do europeanise or americanise Gambians act the ways they do? is it the climate or cultural absorptions? i usually speak with some friend in u.s, and they have a some accent i find hard to comprehend. kay , i hope you don't use such. stick with hallo, not hee loo whas up,. we take from the cultures we reside. our gambianess or africaness is under threat. what about our swedish or denish gambians, do you have your own accents? not talking of the germans, alex cala, mbay ,tell us your german accents.
spanish gambian like saying booynoo, whatever that is . |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2008 : 07:10:02
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Well people are very informal in the U.S. Santafara. I use slang a lot with my family and friends. The only times I use proper (standard) English is at work or when I write.
Human beings evolve, and socialization is part of our adaptation to the society we live in. In other to live effectively and happily in the western world (or any other place for that matter) you will have to adapt to their way of life. It is still possible to retain some key elements of your culture, but the non-essential elements of your home culture/culture of origin will definitely fly through the window. I am sure I have changed a lot since I left the Gambia.
One thing that many Africans come to appreciate about the U.S. is that interpersonal relationships or interactions are very informal unlike in Africa. For example, my daughter calls me "what's up fatty", something even if I had lost my mind I would not refer to my dad.
One school teacher came to me and asked why many of her African students avoid eye contact when talking with her. Immediately I remembered how we are brought up not to look directly in the eyes of adults we respect such as parents.
I think a lot of times people are smart, and they adapt to situations that make life easier for them. Perhaps, santa. a lot of the things you adhere to are not necessarily called for by Islam, instead they are mere elements of Arab culture, is that right?
I have said earlier that what we might call "Africanness" or "Gambianness" is an elusive term. What is called Africanness or Gambianness have always been changing in accordance with local and global environmental changes. Like the Greek philosopher put it, "you cannot step in the same river twice". In the same way, you cannot experience Gambian or African culture (or any other culture) twice, it never stays the same. |
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