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tamsier
United Kingdom
558 Posts |
 Posted - 14 May 2008 : 15:09:24
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RE: 'LOVE AND SAUDI ARABIA' - ORIGINALLY POSTED BY KAYJATTA.
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I will not raise this topic again but for the record, I have been accused of racism and all sorts on the above topic and I intend to defend myself. Admin had blocked that page preventing me to defend myself under that topic. I would like to make it clear that, it is Admin's right to block any page they may see fit. It is not necessarily the blocking of the page that I am bothered about, but the content of Admin's posting, page two, under my last posting on that issue. Although in no way did Admin mention my name, I feel that anyone who read the overall postings will no doubt form an opinion that the posting was directed at me. Under such circumstance, I defend myself as follows:
1. Although the context of the topic was about young Saudis and the code of separation between the sexes, the content delve in detail about the ethics and morallity of that nation. All my postings on this issue was based on that: morallity and ethics.
2. Ugly insults and racist comments
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It was Mansasulu who first started the insults. To get a greater understanding of how this even began and his relentless insults, one must refer to the topic titled: 'Hebrew so called-Negro?' Originally posted by Momodou. In that topic, I only wrote in to support what BornAfrican had written, Mansasulu disagreed with me and started the insult, accusing me of all sorts. He then went on to commit the utmost heracy by not only insulting the Serere and Jola people, but our ancestors. I gave him the opportunity to apologise, he didn't. Nobody condemned him or accused him of tribalism/racism as well as heracy. In fact, I pleaded with Madiba a fellow Muslim brother, to comment on or condemn his heracy, he didn't. Appart from both being muslims, Madiba had condemned me before on a similar issue months back, I apologised and ended the topic with lets agree to disagree. Therefore, his refusal to condemn Mansasulu I found totally hypocritical. Mansasulu then pursued me to the above topic and continued his insults and accusations.
3. In giving my rationale on the above topic, I cited an Arab academic: Dr Huda Abdullah Qattan - at King Faisal Specialist Hospital. This man is one of the leading figures in the Arab world on children sexual abuse. Neither Madiba nor Mansasulu cited the work of any academic or known facts to substantiate their views. Mansasulu perhaps the worst in this regard, used a story instead of facts to substantiate why he believes homosexuals should be hanged. Lets not play on words here, the overal content and context of Masasulu's posting on this issue, was in favour of killing gay people. I on the other hand never condoned the the killing of Arabs or anyone and infact deplored it in the topics noted above. As evident in my postings, I have always maintained I do not like the deplorable nature they treat women, children and homosexuals. Yet again, Mansasulu condoned the killing of gay people and no one condemned him for that apart from Gambiabev and I. In addition to the professor I quoted above, I relaid my own personal experiences [primary evidence]as well as well known and accept facts to substantiate my view point.
As I said in my last posting on the above issue, every example I gave were justified. I acknowledged the fact that, the language may not be easy to the ear, but they were the truth, based on evidence and my personal experiences. No one has to accept those evidence put forward, a simple 'I do not agree' will suffice, but I will not be labelled a racist or accused of all sorts especially when they are unfounded.
I am not in favour of political correctness,never had and never will. I appreciate people have different opinions at times, but to labelled me a racist or begot whilst Mansasulu, who made the biggest heracy in my book - in addition to condoning the killing of people who live a different life to his, and no one lift an eye lid, I find totally one-sided. At least I have never condoned the unjustifiable killing of anyone or Arab for that matter. In fact I deplore it. As regards to my dislike of Arabs, I have said elsewhere, some people you get on with and others you dont. This is called human nature. However, just the mere fact that I dont get on with them does not necessarily mean I wish them death or for all of them to be killed. At the same token, I dont get on with them, never have, and possibly never will, and I do not appreciated being forced to get on with them just to satisfy somebody's moral high ground, and if I refuse, I am labelled a racist.
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Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 14 May 2008 15:21:56 |
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2008 : 15:45:08
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Tamsier,
I apologise for any wrongs i may have done to you without knowing , it must be purely accidental. All i was doing was contributing to the debate to the best of my ability.
With regards to ur claim that neither Mansa nor myself provided proof. On my part, no proof is greater than myself. I have studied and lived amongst Arabs for yrs. Arabs like any other race on this planet have their societal problems. What you did was to insult a whole nation. This is inherent in you. We had a thread before in which you insulted the entire fulani people.Cool down bro.
Tam, i dnt know what your problem is but you are a very angry man. And the way i see you and ur anger going, may lead you to dangerous ends. So take heed my serere brother!
Apologies only.
Madiss |
madiss |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2008 : 17:01:51
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I am not joining in this one! but I do think that everyone is entitled to hold what views they want to even though they are different to mine,In Madiss posting he writes:
"I apologise for any wrongs i may have done to you without knowing , it must be purely accidental."
Fine,but then he writes
"What you did was to insult a whole nation. This is inherent in you. We had a thread before in which you insulted the entire fulani people.Cool down bro.
"Tam, i dnt know what your problem is but you are a very angry man. And the way i see you and ur anger going, may lead you to dangerous ends. So take heed my serere brother!"
If I were Tamsier,I would be baffled by this apology.
I will post nothing further about this,and now Tamsier has explained his position the matter should be concluded,if it does continue then debate on Bantaba I feel would be degraded.
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2008 : 17:23:40
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Toubab,
I am disappointed in ur last postings. All i did was to apologise in the first instance. Then went on to clarify the issues therein raised by tam. Then finally using a note of ethinical joke(Fula and Serere)asked Tam to cool down his temper.
Is anything wrong here? |
madiss |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2008 : 17:24:57
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not getting involved either, but it does bring back the days of good old Khafre and me and observer and one or two other hotheads who used to engage on the board.. aahhhh, the good old days...
what ever happened to brother khafre, anyway?
calm down guys.
life is too short for a feud.
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inez
279 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2008 : 19:42:01
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| I just finnished reading a book named "slave", a true story about a sudanese girl whose village (and many other villages) was attacked by arab milis 1992, she among many other girls was stolen away and sold to slavery in arab family for years. She was 12, some other girls as young as 8, most of them were raped before being sold. She was refused to pray since her "owners" said she could not be muslim because she was black. Right after reading that book I shared Tamsiers thoughts...but hope still that all arabs are not like that...some women can be very nice, but some of them disrespect women here and look at us like something a cat dragged in just because were donīt dress the way they do. Thats not fair either! |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2008 : 20:05:47
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| so after reading one book you have made your conclusion that arabs sudanese took those young girls as slaves. what a pitty. any one can write a book and load it with false tails just to arouse emotion. there are many such books without any thorough research ,be mindful of rash conclusions. we have preconcieve judgements of each other. that biases affect our rationality and respect of others. just yesterday the british soap east enders did the same ,by portraying a hindu family dress as muslims and a commanding brother inlaw. this are all meant to give false notions of islam and arabs. any one who live different from the avarage white person is demonise and cocoon into all sorts of caricature. yet ,the comdemnations comes from the west. how can we all be the same? the use of images and books to pass wrong and ill-intended propaganda is criminal. inez, you can get hundreds of such books, writen by oppourtunities authors and socall acadamic racist. the tricks in sudan use to be a deal between american missionaries and spla (former rebel group). they will arrange a deal were slaves would be freed infront of cameras and then a ranson would be paid. this propaganda was used by those missionaries to propagate against islam in their churches and funds were seek in the efforts to free slaves. this are all false tails. even spla members acknowledge to taking part in this kind pre-plan deals. war is not pretty and all over the world it is women and children and the elderly that suffer .this not an arab issue alone but a global phenomina. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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inez
279 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2008 : 20:28:07
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so I guess you been there witnessing all that happened then? That book is written by Mende Nazer and Damien Lewis. Mende Nazer is muslim and the book is not any propaganda against islam, actually she say she survived all her hardships because of her faith. Or do you mean her faith is false too? It would be very boring if we all were same but respect for others is not only ment to be one way thing. I respect islam and I also respect people of all religions, races, colours who respect other people.
"...this are all meant to give false notions of islam and arabs. any one who live different from the avarage white person is demonise and cocoon into all sorts of caricature. yet ,the comdemnations comes from the west. how can we all be the same? the use of images and books to pass wrong and ill-intended propaganda is criminal..." |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2008 : 21:10:43
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I believe in tolerance of all people and all ways of life. But if something is inherently wrong (such as child abuse or slavery) we shoudln't be frightened to speak out.
It deeply disturbs me on this site that there is ALOT of homo phobia that is not censured and yet if a debate gets heated that is locked!
Is that the nature of Islam?
If soemone has genuinely witnessed something, such as tamsier seeing gay men hanged I think that has a genuine weighting in discusion, rather than just gossip or heresay.
I have never been to an arab country. That is partly because as a single white women I have been warned I would not recieve a friendly reception. This makes me apprehensive. |
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kiwi
Sweden
662 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2008 : 22:16:45
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Donīt forget that so called arab countries are very different from each other. I have visited one of them several times and didnīt meet any disrespect.
When I paid my first visit to Gambia -93, there was a Norwegian woman who never went outside the hotel as she had been warned for Gambian men! |
kiwi |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2008 : 08:32:41
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Perhaps she was wise! |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2008 : 11:50:38
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quote:
Originally posted by kiwi
Donīt forget that so called arab countries are very different from each other. I have visited one of them several times and didnīt meet any disrespect.
When I paid my first visit to Gambia -93, there was a Norwegian woman who never went outside the hotel as she had been warned for Gambian men!
that is the point kiwi. inez, one writing as a muslim doesn't mean he/she cannot succumb to the publishers wish. remember there are many books unpublish. just like any entertianment programm ,you have to cater for the viewers ,what they want is not to hear nice stories about africa or midle east. since when did you see any buletin in bbc or any tv programm showing decent thing about africa or middle east in your country? let us be realistic. bev, speak your mind as loud as you could. it is the west that has enslaved more people than any other person. so when you wish to blame an imaginary story, you better think about the evident incidences recorded and acknowledged. when people held rebel supporters as captives in wars, this is mainly a ploy to let the men come back for them. when other see this ugly situation ,they give a different slant to it. largely this is what was happening in sudan south. the rebels raid arab villages at night and take the army by suprise ,in there efforts to retaliate ,the sudanise army will capture Dinca villages and form a base round it to let the fighters come. john karan was using that military campaign to raise international emotions by stating that the arabs are taking the blacks has slaves.
no one will condone child slavery. but what is slavery to you inez? what is the defination you know about slaves? tell us. because ,taking servants in refer to as slaves in mandinka and some arab communities. let us not go overboard with cultural differences and concepts. when we as mandinkas talk about so and so is from a slave back ground or junkunda, it is not meant in the western form of slavery. this people go to their own homes, they marry at the expense of the master and have many other privilages that the matser under took. the person refer to has slave conduct some manual labour and run errans for the suppose master. what is the civil service formulate in todays world. people think they are free to do what they like at work, hell no. you go by rules of the owner whom you will hardly ever met. you can be fired on a short notice. is this any different from old form of servant master relationships?
why did some people claim the arabs take women and children as slaves? as i stated above, the spla were fighting a gorilla war, they have their basis miles way and they move a lot. this strategy can be seen today in action in irag and afghanistan. the british or americans took many insurgent figters, were they giving them milk and honey? no this is war. they torture most of them, they sexually abuse some of them to get information out. the american did it in veitnam. whole villages were bombed why? they cannot trust any body. women,men and children are figters for the resistance. in this capacity when some are held hostage and ordered to do menial jobs, is this slavery, may be yes, but not in its conventional methods.
i worked with a senoir SPLA commander for three years who and few others worked hard to bring that war to an end. what was the head of spla doing? he was using the funds given to him to live an expensive life style and runing a propaganda or arab enslaving the blacks.
the slpa figters do kill sudanise army officers and the families of those soldiers usually demands reprisals. this is the causes of the war taking twist and turns. just like the insurgents kill some british and american forces, the families back home demands body armour, proper protections etc. the aftermat is heavy bombardment and killings by the cooalition. do you think women and children don't die unnecessaryly?
we should avoid a narrow out look at issues. one enslave child is bad, we should talk about it, but when those stories are themself cooked. then all you are doing is falling for a cheap propaganda. swiching of labels. this is what is taking place. what one use to do perfectly, label some one else for that same crime. all this wars, where are the weapons coming from? can't we talk also about the manufacturers and sellers of those weapons, write petitions about the crimes linked to those same weapons which is a source of jobs for hundreds of people. without the weapons, no such thing like slavery will take place, people will fight or run way. who is supplying weapons to governments and rebels at the same time? who are the benefactors to wars?. yes, write about children enslavement ,but you may also wish to look at it from the angle of multi-national cooperations ,the likes of nike,goodyear rubber,delmonti, etc. industrial slave complexs in different parts of the world. the singling out of arabs is wrong. i don't condone any one's racism or brutality. as some body stated above, arabs are diverse . if some of them,like some black or whites engage in wrong activities, we can write about it, but we shouldn't blanket condem them. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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MeMe
United Kingdom
541 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2008 : 13:09:34
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Tamsier, I too found it a bit disappointing that the administrator didn't lock the topic after his/her own posting but allowed another post to appear - that's a bit one-sided (in my book).
Anyway, I've felt for a long while that there's no point in posting on this site anymore as it's not possible to have a meaningful discussion with people who have a it's black or white and no grey areas in between view on life ie they're right and you're wrong! Here's some of the things I'm talking about ....
- A survivor writes a book about her experiences and posters say it's been twisted for 'entertainment/sensationalism'.
- Someone starts a thread about under-age children being married of and posters start going on about a 'western' adult woman marrying a man who was I think more than 50 years older than her.
- Mention is made that there were (are?) Arab slave traders operating in Africa and lo we now see posts talking about UK/US involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Yes, all of the above are worthy of discussion by their own merits and that's what we should be doing ie can we discuss the likes of Sudan and Chad without resorting to name-calling, tit-for-tat postings, etc. The world is a frightening place and we all carry baggage from the past (and the present?)but surely the way forward for us all is communication? Without that we humans are totally doomed.
Please lets start 'talking' to each other with respect and an open mind.
Thanks! |
It is better to die standing than to live on your knees - Ernesto Guevara de la Serna |
Edited by - MeMe on 15 May 2008 13:13:46 |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2008 : 14:29:34
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I personally wouldn't disagree with what you say at all, I applaud your forthrightness in bringing it to the forefront of discussions on Bantaba, I feel like you and I am sure that there are others who do as well, however, I hate to say this but its a culture thing,people of different nationalities think differently and react differently and there is nothing that can change that their minds work in a different way,you have to accept that ,I can hear the rumblings in the background and fury building up now ! this person is a raciest how dare he say those things!! I am sure as well as you and many others would welcome some CONSTRUCTIVE and CALM DISCUSSION on the points that you have raised,will we get it, lets just wait and see if there is any response at all,and the tone in which it is made.
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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inez
279 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2008 : 23:06:22
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Santa, would be easier to discuss that book if you had read it. The girl then, now woman had nothing to do with spla or any other christian rebell group...
Meme, you are so right. It is hard to communicate as a "avarage white woman" at this forum. We have that saying at home:" That dog is barking at wrong tree"...and I feel like a wrong tree many times. Donīt know if it makes sense..need to sleep now. Good night you all! |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2008 : 08:14:25
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quote:
I personally wouldn't disagree with what you say at all, I applaud your forthrightness in bringing it to the forefront of discussions on Bantaba, I feel like you and I am sure that there are others who do as well, however, I hate to say this but its a culture thing,people of different nationalities think differently and react differently and there is nothing that can change that their minds work in a different way,you have to accept that ,I can hear the rumblings in the background and fury building up now ! this person is a raciest how dare he say those things!! I am sure as well as you and many others would welcome some CONSTRUCTIVE and CALM DISCUSSION on the points that you have raised,will we get it, lets just wait and see if there is any response at all,and the tone in which it is made.
no surprise there toubab. cus you will agree with the story that appeal to you. if any one wish to comment on issues be ready to be challenged. that doesn't mean contributors are harse or negative. it means we see things differently. we cannot change each other's way of analysing and seeing things. even gambians here don't agree so please ,carry on and post what you wish. expect counter arguements. all along i thought the westerners no that better.
inez, give us the title of the book. it doesn't matter whether it is written by a muslim or christain or dinka animist. there are opporutinist to cash in. is all recorded stories true, just because it is written in a book doesn't make it accurate. arab slave trader. or yes i heard that some were before.. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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