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MeMe
United Kingdom
541 Posts |
 Posted - 08 May 2008 : 14:32:32
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quote:
Originally posted by lurker
to MeMe
blimey, a simple posting and the knives are out already.
of course i am not saying that.! i am not saying anything. someone elsse is.
i report an opinion from an expat and ask for thoughts and reactions as i am not there on the ground to offer an opinion myself.
simple , really.
who's tarring who with what here, MeMe?
by the way, it is not from a single person. i have heard this from loads of people, but i chose to mention one , who expounded his feelings more profusely than the others .
your "anger" seems unwarranted here. some people there feel that there are problems brewing. it is not wrong to discuss their feelings, simply because you may not want to hear them or think they over-reacting..
this bantaba is very fractious these days.
It's not "anger", Lurker but a feeling of frustration .... ie don't make problems where there are none. Before we know it this sort of Chinese whisper will become 'real' and appear on other Gambia forums and then who knows what will happen to the country and its tourist industry. If that's being "fracticious" then too bad  |
It is better to die standing than to live on your knees - Ernesto Guevara de la Serna |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2008 : 14:38:04
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MeMe, this appears real enought to the people who brought this up to me. you can't dismiss their fears as chinese whispers because you personally do not perceive it to be a problem. besides, they did not say it was a "crisis" but a subtle change in the wind. some of them have travelled a lot and recognise nuances in the air. they have a right to voice their feelings as do we. i just put them up here for comment from gmabians and gambiaphiles alike.
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tamsier
United Kingdom
557 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2008 : 16:05:29
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There are at least two possible reasons for this. Most of you touched on the first one: economic. For example, the British Pound is stronger than the Dalasi, therefore British people settling in the Gambia can afford bigger land and better houses, thereby pushing house prices up. I personnaly think it is less about standard of living but more about land and houses - if that makes sense to anyone. The same issue also apply to England, were rich Londoners move to the country-side,pushing house prices up and creating resentment by locals who were born and breed in these villages, thereby making it even worst for them to get on the property ladder. The same also happen in london years ago and even recently, when rich Arabs and Russians bought houses in london thereby pushing up prices and making it difficult for the average londers.
The same thing is happening in Southern Europe caused by rich expats from the West. Expats having a higher disposable income [due mostly due to stronger currency], they can pay whatever the vendor of a house/land is charging [something that can take years for the local communinity to save]. The vendors know they can make more from expats and tend to sell to them. This creates resentment.
This moves me next to the second reason. Foreigners who choose to stay do not make any attempt to learn at least one of the local languages or integrate with the locals, but prefer to stay in their little communities. Not all, I must add, because I have white friends in the Gambia and Senegal who can speak both wolof and Mandinka, but generally they dont, especially the British expats. Even in Spain, the British do not even mix with the locals or try to speak the language. I think the british themselves know this and there is no point to rub it in.
What the Gambian government needs to consider is to say before a foreigner can buy property in the gambia, they would have to live in the country for several years, set up businesses in the local community and showed that they have integrated well with the community and at least being able to speak one of the local languages. Although I appreciate that this may not be favourable to some, it is happening in certain south european countries to a lesser extend, in their attempt to curtailed expats from richer nations out-pricing the indiginous population in their own country.
I totally reject the notion that this is to do with Islam or the middle east or even al qaeda. Generally speaking, though not always, Gambians are tollerant to other religions, they may make comments but they do not go beyond that. Of course there are exceptions, but generally, this is the case. For once, islam has nothing to do with this, I think it is just economic and it is happening everywhere you look. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2008 : 17:18:54
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i find this interesting, the question is attitudes towards toubabs, they could be any european nationality, so the germans, danes, could all be under the same atmosphere.
Tamsier, your point about ecomomic is true, since the change of the dls against euro, dollar, pound etc less spending is going on, BUT THE BIGGER PICTURE IS THIS. People are getting wise to gambia, gone are the days of people laying down foundations and building houses, people are talking, Gambia is loosing its shine, to own land, build a house the system is fraught with corruption, red tape, double dealing etc. SO IT IS NOT A GOOD DEAL ANYMORE. also look at the other markets that are opening up.
GAMBIA experience offers cape verde and they ARE very pro investment.
the officials in GAMBIA telll you they will help, but at a fee
"What the Gambian government needs to consider is to say before a foreigner can buy property in the gambia, they would have to live in the country for several years, set up businesses in the local community and showed that they have integrated well with the community and at least being able to speak one of the local languages. Although I appreciate that this may not be favourable to some, it is happening in certain south european countries to a lesser extend, in their attempt to curtailed expats from richer nations out-pricing the indiginous population in their own country." the first ten words of this sentence will not happen, GAMBIA IS TRIBAL, government has the last word, if the local don't want it and the tribals elders raise enough fuss it does not happen. PEOPLE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT YOU CANNOT BUY LAND IN GAMBIA YOU CAN ONLY RENT FOR 99 years.
THIS SITUATION will get out of hand becuase the higher up do not care about the others. PEOPLE would not complain if the middle income families were paid a decent wage, BUT THE HIGHER UPS to deflate from the corruption/indecisive/fear etc start a campaign aginst other people. remember school playgrounds its easy to start a "hate/do not like/they are different to us" campaign.
My friend has just returned from 6 months in gambia and he said a lot of pensioners are thinking about returning home, the dls v £ does not go as far. Gambia is changing, people have to take off the rose coloured glasses, wake up and smell the coffee.
FOR RESENTMENT LOOK HIGH UP THE FOOD CHAIN, BUT FOR REACTION LOOK AT THE BOTTOM, the person on the street. |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2008 : 19:53:00
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what an excellent analysis.
i agree totally. i think what my friend was in effect saying is that the best days for the toubabs are over and the reasons actually do not matter . if you live anywhere and smell trouble and looming economic/political/tribal/religious conflict ( or any combination),you up sticks and leave if you can. this is the peril of being an expat.
jambo notes, and others also have, that quite a number of pensioners are thinking of leaving or have already. the pound/euro does not go as far. that was a clever dalasi rearrangement...NOT! i believe that the medium to long term efects of the dalasi shuffle will soon come home to haunt the ministers who came up with that one.there have been absolutely no benefits to the locals and the tourist market is declining at speed.
all the waiters i know said it was a very bad season. repeat tourism is down. new tourism is down.euro toubabs (?eurobabs?)are broke.
so i think the expats sense this as the beginning of the end of the good old days.
i think that gambia is one of the few places left on earth wher people can come and hang out with few rules with no nanny state and with a cheap way of life - but it is ebbing away and catching up with the rest of the world and the eurobabs(i like this word) are waking up and smelling the coffee.
what is needed is for the tourism ministry and banking controllers to wake up and smell the coffee too and adjust their tactics to keep touris up there - gambia has little else to offer the world in exchange for hard forex.
these are not chinese whispers. these are harsh economic realities.
itis not all doom and gloom. of course it is not. but change is a'comin.......
what i would do for a time warp back to the mid-90's in gambia.
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2008 : 20:49:06
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| it would also help if the deadlock on travelling to gambia was broken, gambia experience can put you off going to the gambia for a holiday just be there prices. everyone in the next week just look athe website and see what prices they charge for a week, they never drop, the flight alone is ridiculous high. |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2008 : 21:02:11
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| yes, but they have the monopoly on off-season flights. they can charge what they like.don't forget the power o the tour operators. they can make or break the tourist business and can have significantifluence on govt policy |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2008 : 13:52:44
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Time is running out FAST,this is the message that should be taken to the Ministry of Tourism,this sector of the Gambian economy is VITAL to the wellbeing of the people of the Gambia once confidence is lost it will take a very long time indeed to build up what was a vibrant industry,what can be done to stop this? I suggest a very swift "free float" of the Dalasi,let the market decide,or is that the wrong way to go? There is no doubt at all that something has to be done QUICKLY,any ideas?
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2008 : 14:27:18
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I have stayed at Palm Beach hotel many times and have found it to be a friendly well run place. It is a shame to see the staff being treated in this way. They work hard.
Badala Park staff will be used to fill gaps as often one of the hotels closes for weeks in the off season.
People can be treated badly because there are people lining up to take their jobs whatever the conditions.
People need proper conditions of employment with days off each week and agreed holiday weeks.
I came across staff at Badala who worked 7 days a week and the only holiday was unpaid in the off season.
Gambians need to stand firm together and continue with union action to get permanent change. |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2008 : 15:15:46
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Talking would be better rather than a club! what are the employees going to do continue the strike? no point,as you say there are MANY willing to take their place.Most people in Gambia work 7 days a week I know of a female fishseller who supports her family and sick husband who has not had a day off work for ages,reason? no work,= no money for food.
"people need proper conditions of employment with days off each week and agreed holiday weeks."
of course but whilst things are very difficult for everyone in Gambia just not an option
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2008 : 04:01:59
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Isn't it just a social reality? I did little construction project when I was in Gambia. Done a lots of shopping. This Turkish Guy rule the construction sector. Lebanase are already dominating the business. Now many mauritinians and morrocons doing a lots of good business. Many corner stores owned by people from guinnie or mauritinia. Even, many white europeans establish good business. Go to rural areas. I have seen chinese buying property and doing agriculture work. It was so surprising CHINESE doing farming in Gambia. So whatever immigrants hating you see in Europe towards foreign immigrants by some nationalist/lower income groups 'foreigner taking our jobs s h i t' could not be happening in gambia as well?
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 11 May 2008 07:14:01 |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2008 : 12:26:53
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Lots of shops in Banjul owned by other African Nationals. I presume the income generated goes home to their families.
Ive always thought the Mauritanians, tall and mysterious in their blue flowing gowns, look rather exotic!  
The rule of commerce is if you see a gap in the market, fill it.
The question is why arent Gambians the shop keepers in their own country?
If you are working for yourself as a fish seller or farmer or whatever working 7 days a week is fine if thats what you want to do. Many self employed people in Uk work very long hours. But it brings financial reward to the person doing the work.
The difference is when you work for someone else. THEY are reaping the profit from your work, your wage remains the same. The poor and the weak need protection from ruthless employers. Laws need establishing and enforcing. |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2008 : 13:57:33
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
................ So whatever immigrants hating you see in Europe towards foreign immigrants by some nationalist/lower income groups 'foreigner taking our jobs s h i t' could not be happening in gambia as well?
Good point and well worth noting.
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2008 : 14:02:09
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quote:
Originally posted by gambiabev
..................The question is why arent Gambians the shop keepers in their own country?
Can you provide an answer to your own question Bev? |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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