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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Nov 2006 : 20:31:52
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Well my stance that it was not a slave house still holds. The land was actually bought in 1785. The Public records office has this and House of Commons Inquiry in 1785 has this. They bought the island but actually made a settlement in 1823. Grant was not on the island but in Banjul i 1816. He supervised the street plans in Banjul and built many houses like the statehouse and the quadrangle building.
The building could not be a slave house and if the government has evidence they need to show it. For anything to become official, it has to have basis in evidence. I doubt if they have this. Well since its bringing in revenue, who cares any. But we owe it to our children and posterity not to foreign exchange. |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2006 : 20:39:51
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| are you saying the State house was built around 1816?? that would make it almost 200yrs old. itself perhaps should be on the tourist map!! |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2006 : 20:56:17
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It should be on the tourist map. Its actually made of wood for the most part. I walked those stairs during renovations.It was called Government House. Gambia never built a statehouse after independence. |
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Sister Omega
United Kingdom
2085 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2006 : 17:40:08
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Kondorong if the British had built the Slave House it would have been documented. Jangjangbureh was home to a slave market, and in Gambian folklore of this area the slave house was built by Portugese traders who settled in the area before the British. This information was taught to Armitage students in 1980's by their history teacher. To go by scanty written evidence from the British Authorities at that time is lathegic research. The bricks of the slave house were quarried on or near the island and the style of the building isn't of an Anglo style. I think the best source of obtaining information about this area would be from Griots who know the history of the island not some Crown dusty document.
Peace
Sister Omega |
Peace
Sister Omega |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2006 : 18:20:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Sister Omega
Kondorong if the British had built the Slave House it would have been documented. Jangjangbureh was home to a slave market, and in Gambian folklore of this area the slave house was built by Portugese traders who settled in the area before the British. This information was taught to Armitage students in 1980's by their history teacher. To go by scanty written evidence from the British Authorities at that time is lathegic research. The bricks of the slave house were quarried on or near the island and the style of the building isn't of an Anglo style. I think the best source of obtaining information about this area would be from Griots who know the history of the island not some Crown dusty document.
Peace
Sister Omega
I am suprised. The portuguese came to gambia around the 1450s. Indications are that they did not stay long and only dealt along the coast. Local tradition in Banjul had it that the quadrangle was built by the portuguese and its now proven to be untrue. It was infact built by Captain Grant in 1816.
A six year study grant was comissioned for this building between 1982 to 1988 and no evidence came up. International organisation sponsored the study. Reference material was collected far and wide.
THERE IS A REASON WHY I PUT UP THIS CHALLENGE. I DONT THINK ITS TRUE THAT THE BUILDING WAS A SLAVE HOUSE. I AM NOT DENYING THAT SLAVERY DID NOT TAKE PLACE IN THE INTERIOR, BUT THE HOUSE IS NOT A SLAVE HOUSE. IF GOVERNMENET HAS PROOF, THEN THEY SHOULD SHOW IT.
What took place in the interior was tribal wars and captives were sold to merchants. Sometimes these war were remote controlled to produced "victims" who end up as commodities.
There is a story of a man who missed a tiger in his house and shot someone. The local chief punished him by selling all his brothers, sisters an mother into slavery.
The problem is this building was not on the island by 1785 when the island was bought. So it could not have beeen a slave house. My suspect is it is Fort Cambell, the second fort that was built after Fort George.
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2006 : 18:25:05
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quote:
Originally posted by kondorong
quote:
Originally posted by Sister Omega
Kondorong if the British had built the Slave House it would have been documented. Jangjangbureh was home to a slave market, and in Gambian folklore of this area the slave house was built by Portugese traders who settled in the area before the British. This information was taught to Armitage students in 1980's by their history teacher. To go by scanty written evidence from the British Authorities at that time is lathegic research. The bricks of the slave house were quarried on or near the island and the style of the building isn't of an Anglo style. I think the best source of obtaining information about this area would be from Griots who know the history of the island not some Crown dusty document.
Peace
Sister Omega
I am suprised. The portuguese came to gambia around the 1450s. Indications are that they did not stay long and only dealt along the coast. Local tradition in Banjul had it that the quadrangle was built by the portuguese and its now proven to be untrue. It was infact built by Captain Grant in 1816.
A six year study grant was comissioned for this building between 1982 to 1988 and no evidence came up. International organisation sponsored the study. Reference material was collected far and wide.
THERE IS A REASON WHY I PUT UP THIS CHALLENGE. I DONT THINK ITS TRUE THAT THE BUILDING WAS A SLAVE HOUSE. I AM NOT DENYING THAT SLAVERY DID NOT TAKE PLACE IN THE INTERIOR, BUT THE HOUSE IS NOT A SLAVE HOUSE. IF GOVERNMENET HAS PROOF, THEN THEY SHOULD SHOW IT.
What took place in the interior was tribal wars and captives were sold to merchants. Sometimes these war were remote controlled to produced "victims" who end up as commodities.
There is a story of a man who missed a tiger in his house and shot someone. The local chief punished him by selling all his brothers, sisters an mother into slavery.
The problem is this building was not on the island by 1785 when the island was bought. So it could not have beeen a slave house. My suspect is it is Fort Cambell, the second fort that was built after Fort George.
Less you forget, i have spent atleast six years on this island myself and the stories are contradictory. The only thing consistent about oral history is its inconsistencies.
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Momodou
Denmark
11524 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2006 : 18:27:16
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quote:
Originally posted by kondorongMy suspect is it is Fort Cambell, the second fort that was built after Fort George.
Kons, the building is definetly not a fort. Its more of a warehouse. Just look at the building and compare it with any other forts. |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2006 : 18:37:35
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Thats why i said it was a barn for food used by the Liberated African Slaves from Sierra Leone and the Atlantic. It does not look like a slave house but a store for food. This building did not exist by the time the island was bought in 1785.
If that is true, then it could not have been a slave house because the island was then a liberated settlement. Infact it was after this island was bought in 1785, that Mungo Park venured into the inerior but he stayed very closed to the island at a place called Pisania(PISA NIARR). This location is just on the outskirts of Karantaba Wharftown in ruins. When Mungo Park started his journey in 1796, there was no slave activity on this island and no mention of this house. You could not miss this house because its on the edge of the river on the way to Pisania(PISA NIARR). It would have been the most sophisticated structure in that whole region and therefore a must see for any expeditionary force. |
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Sister Omega
United Kingdom
2085 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2006 : 20:17:45
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Kons well there does seem to be inconsistencies because my partner lived there for six years told me this account. That the fort was built by the Portuguese and a Slave Market was held there. The Slaves were held in the dungeon. The Portugese traded with the local people in slaves, also the Portugese were there long enough to introduce words into Mandinka language like Calabero which means cooking pot. The stones were cut from local stones and slaves constructed the house.
If the British built this building it would of differently been documented and taught as part of the West African Curriculum. The Portugese could of easily built the Slave House before they went on to build Fort Elimina in today's Ghana. The building doesn't look as if it is a British style building either. Kondorong I am still to be convince that the building isn't a Slave House.
Peace
Sister Omega |
Peace
Sister Omega |
Edited by - Sister Omega on 10 Nov 2006 20:19:15 |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2006 : 21:15:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Sister Omega
Kons well there does seem to be inconsistencies because my partner lived there for six years told me this account. That the fort was built by the Portuguese and a Slave Market was held there. The Slaves were held in the dungeon. The Portugese traded with the local people in slaves, also the Portugese were there long enough to introduce words into Mandinka language like Calabero which means cooking pot. The stones were cut from local stones and slaves constructed the house.
If the British built this building it would of differently been documented and taught as part of the West African Curriculum. The Portugese could of easily built the Slave House before they went on to build Fort Elimina in today's Ghana. The building doesn't look as if it is a British style building either. Kondorong I am still to be convince that the building isn't a Slave House.
Peace
Sister Omega
IS THE EVIDENCE IN PORTUGAL. MAY BE WE SHOULD SEND YOU THERE TO FIND OUT FOR US. IT CERTAINLY IS NOT IN THE GAMBIA. |
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Sister Omega
United Kingdom
2085 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2006 : 22:10:11
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Kondorong did you read Sonko Goodwin about the presence of Ethnic Groups in the Gambia, In there you will find out information about the Portuguese in Gambia. If you think about it logically the Portuguese was assigned by the Pope to ciruminavigate Africa. It was the Portugese who built Goree and the Slave House was built before the British prsence in the Gambia. The Portuguese must of presumed that the River Gambia Estuary could actually lead them further into the interior, after all the Portugese came in such for Niger's gold under the presumption that the river would lead them to it. Janjangbureh is logistically closer to Guinea Bissau which is a former Portuguese colony. The Portuguese came primarily to trade with the local people who conducted local markets. As bartering was the norm it was important that each side learnt on anothers language. The Portugese Presence was a significant one and they were the first European pioneers in the region.
Peace Sister Omega |
Peace
Sister Omega |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2006 : 00:04:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Sister Omega
Kondorong did you read Sonko Goodwin about the presence of Ethnic Groups in the Gambia, In there you will find out information about the Portuguese in Gambia. If you think about it logically the Portuguese was assigned by the Pope to ciruminavigate Africa. It was the Portugese who built Goree and the Slave House was built before the British prsence in the Gambia. The Portuguese must of presumed that the River Gambia Estuary could actually lead them further into the interior, after all the Portugese came in such for Niger's gold under the presumption that the river would lead them to it. Janjangbureh is logistically closer to Guinea Bissau which is a former Portuguese colony. The Portuguese came primarily to trade with the local people who conducted local markets. As bartering was the norm it was important that each side learnt on anothers language. The Portugese Presence was a significant one and they were the first European pioneers in the region.
Peace Sister Omega
Africa was divided into two. One half to Catholic Spain and the other to Catholic Portugal. But it still does not change the facts on the ground. |
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Sister Omega
United Kingdom
2085 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2006 : 00:44:01
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Your comment is contradictory because as you stated Portugal was assigned to Africa by the Pope so an early slave trading station fits into this pattern quite easily. The slaves were prisoners of war and therefore didn't come under Mandinka laws. The mandinkas exchanged slaves captured in war for amunition and other commodities. Therefore the only reprive they had to gain their freedom once on MacCarthy Island was to touch the freedom tree. If there was no slave market on the island there would be no need for a slave house or a freedom tree. Oral history is often negated as inaccurate but in reality it is often accurate. To argue a point just for the sake of it is counterproductive. Therefore I suggest that the onus is on you Kondorong to provide substantial evidence to prove that the Slave House was not a slave house, and underpin it with evidence.
Peace
Sister Omega |
Peace
Sister Omega |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2006 : 18:33:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Sister Omega
Your comment is contradictory because as you stated Portugal was assigned to Africa by the Pope so an early slave trading station fits into this pattern quite easily. The slaves were prisoners of war and therefore didn't come under Mandinka laws. The mandinkas exchanged slaves captured in war for amunition and other commodities. Therefore the only reprive they had to gain their freedom once on MacCarthy Island was to touch the freedom tree. If there was no slave market on the island there would be no need for a slave house or a freedom tree. Oral history is often negated as inaccurate but in reality it is often accurate. To argue a point just for the sake of it is counterproductive. Therefore I suggest that the onus is on you Kondorong to provide substantial evidence to prove that the Slave House was not a slave house, and underpin it with evidence.
Peace
Sister Omega
Two things:
1. There is no such thing as mandinka law. May be on planet Jupiter. Oops Jupiter is no longer a planet.
2. I am not denying that slavery was not taking place in the area but i am hesitant that the house called the slave house is not a slave house. If the house was there by 1785, which is long after your believe that the Portuguese had bulit it, then it should have been there. The only explantion for it not been there in 1785 confirms that it was not a slave house.
The island only became associated with freedom after 1785 and not before this date. So the believe that a freedom tree existed could only have been so after the British bought it.
It makes no business sense to buy human cargo for profit only to plant a freedom tree and tell them that if any one manages to touch it will be given freedom. That is certainly very illogical and not worth risking the high seas for a hide and seek game with slaves.
The freedom tree could only have been a freedom tree after 1785 and not before this date.
The problem with oral history is and sequencing of events and more importantly dates. So the stories come forth and back. Its rich but only with a careful interviewer and it requires good questioning skills to put issues into perspective. Its possible that the freedom tree was the site of Fort George. However, the description of the Fort showed it was built in the centre of the island and this tree is just by the river a stone throw from the police station. |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2006 : 19:39:57
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Kondorong, as always i have to correct you. Jupiter is still a Planet, after Mars,its the fifth from the Sun. Obviously you were not paying attention as Armitage.
the mandinka Law as she put it has to be understood in that context. you cannot have a people or society if there are no laws,rules,customs.
i think Sister Omega is right. you have to proof otherwise and not us to come with the evidence. its not just the portugese who were in Gambia before the british finally settled. the French were at Albreda long before the british a similar building is still at Albreda. also before formal colonialism, there were royal charter companies like the Royal African Company etc. these were private companies operating based on profit and could abandon any place if its not bring in money.
proof to us otherwise, most of the data on slavery tourism is from Records in the Gambia and they say its a slave house. |
Edited by - njucks on 13 Nov 2006 19:41:10 |
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