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leokat
United Kingdom
123 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 17:58:38
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Hi, I don’t post here often but I spend a fair bit of time ‘lurking’ and reading the various messages. I find them interesting and informative, but often lack the confidence to ‘have my say.’
Anyhow I now find myself in a bit if a dilemma and would appreciate any advice anyone feels able to offer (constructive please).
I visited The Gambia with my daughter for the first time in January this year. I’d read a little of the country and it’s people before I got there and, as a result, was both excited and nervous. Not being the sort to sit on the beach all day I was looking forward to learning more about the culture and, being a bit of an amateur birdwatcher, I planned several bird watching trips. I’d also read a bit about the young man/older woman relationships that develop and was determined that would never happen to me.
To cut a long story short, after a few days of total culture shock (and being determined to stay in my hotel unless I was on an organised excursion) my daughter and I met a pleasant young juice seller we felt we could trust and went out on several short trips with him.
My daughter, who has mild learning difficulties, found it easier to cope with just the three of us and learned more from our guide, who was prepared to take things at her pace than she did on the organised trips.
All went well and one day one of our guide’s friends joined us for a meal at a local restaurant to ‘make up the numbers.’ About ten minutes into the meal I realised that I really liked this young man who was bright, funny, intelligent and very good looking, but I told myself my feelings were just maternal. As we all seemed to get on so well we went on further trips as group of four. One evening my daughter was feeling tired and went to our room early. Being bored of the hotel I went to watch my friend making attaya. He was not there but his friend, the one I liked, was.
I guess the rest is pretty much a cliché of what happens so often each summer and, though I felt guilty, I had a wonderful time. When the time came to return home I was determined to just put what had happened behind me. However, something made me text him. We have been in touch by text almost every single day (most days several times) since and have written numerous letters to each other.
It’s the usual story. I am much older than my young lover (and yes as has been discussed about other similar relationships in another thread he is slim and handsome I am very large and distinctly average). I am no fool and know I was pursued for all the usual reasons - money (which I don’t have), the chance of a better life etc. However, we have found over the months that we have much in common and a wonderful friendship developed between us which has grown into love.
Recently my lover has been told by his family that they have picked out a young woman to be his wife. His family tell him they know what is best for him and that he should accept his destiny.
He says his family do not know him, or how he lives; they do not know what he wants to be or what his vision is and he wants nothing to do with the whole thing and has no desire for a marriage with a young circumcised virgin. He says he and I have been together a long time and he likes, loves, and thinks only of me. However, he has not told his family this and they believe he is still thinking over their proposition.
I am now in an awkward position. I love him and do not want to ruin my young lover’s life in any way. Last week I tried to finish with him and said I would not be coming back to visit him. In reply he started talking about getting a boat out of The Gambia to come see me. I managed to put him off this idea and have promised I will go and see him as soon as I am able.
But what do I say and do when I see him?
I desperately want to do what is right - but what is right in this situation? I’m not at all sure he’d be happy in the marriage his family have planned for him. On the other hand I don’t think he’d necessarily be any happier with me in the long run as I‘d never be able to give him children and he‘d miss his friends and family dreadfully. I’ve tried to tell him that Europe is not always the promised land it seems, but he’s not convinced. If I tell him I no longer love him (which would be a lie) I fear he may fall into the arms of a less caring toubab next season, or even carry out his threat to become one of the many illegal immigrants who head for The Canaries by boat. The obvious solution seems to be to go into a marriage I feel is doomed to failure but that would cause us both needless pain.
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mamag
28 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 18:53:53
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Leokat
thats such a tough one,i really do not know what i would do in such a situation. You seem realistic about the age difference which is a good thing but coming from someone who had lived and frequently travels back and forth to the gambia, i have heard so many similar stories and thay have not always turned out so good. Nevertheless, only you know your heart so you need to take some time and seriously think about the reality of this situation. Again you mentioned not being able to give him children and this can be a problem for many African men(and men in general) who having kids is a great desire and this can sometimes (from my expereinces), lead to many men going outside the wedding home to have kids and that's a reality you may need to prepare for if you persue this relationship.
I really donnt know what you should do, i'm sure you'll get amny feedback and this should help i hope.
goodluck |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 19:27:07
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| One thing that concerns me greatly is that your daughter may not understand and be ready for what you want, and a man who will be her stepfather,culture plays a great part in any relationship and MUST be considered very carefully,its far to simple to boil things down to just love or a man and a woman.The only person who can decide what to do is YOU no one else.THINK and perhaps THINK again.Only then will you know what to do.It also appears that HIS family have other ideas about his future. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 19:31:40
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The difference between right and wrong is a measure of one's cultural indifference. Ultimately, you have to be able to see him as an individual with hopes, aspirations and emotions. You have to honestly ask your self if you can understand these needs and how far you can meet them. If you cannot then there is no need to develop a relationship on false hopes, which in the long run will come to haunt you.
You are better off nipping it in the bud now than to manage a crisis later. May be he may not want a child in the first place. However, he will be one of the rare ones to do in Gambian society. Families put a lot of pressure on couples to have a child especially after one year since the marriage has been consummated and woman had not conceived. The rumor goes on and many questions are asked.
Marrying an African male, one should be prepared to have some tolerance for accommodating their family members. The western nuclear family set up cannot work and will surely lead to friction. It is difficult to define privacy in relations in Africa.
I would advise you to detach yourself from him and just remain cordial friends. To muster the courage to do so is also a sign of love. Love does not have to be platonic, but also wishing the other well and realizing one’s limitations in providing comfort, hope and desires to any one is key. Being very honest is the foundation to a fruitful and long lasting relationship. May be you should share your with him and let him make a decision without undue influence for your personal needs. That way, any agreement will be binding and not a surprise to anyone of you.
The two of you are the true players; we are only spectators who only wish you the best out there. The decision is yours to take and if you are happy with it, then I believe you should do as you agreed. You can never please everybody. I hope you take this as an advice only. It’s not binding.
There is a Gambian proverb that if you borrow a heart to muster courage to fight, then fight quickly and fiercely and return it before the owner ask for it in the middle of the fight. In other words, do things as you see fit and are sustainable. Making a decision based on someone else’s thinking just to satisfy a temporary solution will eventually come back to haunt you. You are the better judge. Good luck
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 19:39:15
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quote:
Originally posted by kondorong
You are better off nipping it in the bud now than to manage a crisis later.
I would advise you to detach yourself from him and just remain cordial friends. To muster the courage to do so is also a sign of love. Love does not have to be platonic, but also wishing the other well and realizing one’s limitations in providing comfort, hope and desires to any one is key.
............I hope you take this as an advice only. It’s not binding.
Kondorong You're MAD!!! |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 20:21:43
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quote:
Originally posted by njucks
quote:
Originally posted by kondorong
You are better off nipping it in the bud now than to manage a crisis later.
I would advise you to detach yourself from him and just remain cordial friends. To muster the courage to do so is also a sign of love. Love does not have to be platonic, but also wishing the other well and realizing one’s limitations in providing comfort, hope and desires to any one is key.
............I hope you take this as an advice only. It’s not binding.
Kondorong You're MAD!!!
I am not mad. Thats why the decision has to be hers and not me. I understand she might have different advices which may run counter to each other. We have not started yet and you think i am mad.
She should therefore make the ultimate decision herself based on her circumstances. My advice was for her to understand that she might not be able to provide his needs of a child. To let go, also means loving him because insisting on keeping him and Knowing that she cannot meet key needs will eventually be harmful to both of them. Therefore understandig these limitations early on, helps both of them and i believe should take there own separate lives and still remain friends.
This posting requires value judgement which is always a source of controversy. Value judgements are usually controversial and in amny cases, one hardly gets a conclusion because it is influenced by perception which is influenced by a host of issues like ones mood at the time, culture, education, wealth etc. Since we are all not at the same level, value judgements will always raise controversies.
I am out of this please. I am no social worker and no expertise please. |
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Babylon
Sweden
691 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 21:02:53
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Leokat, can your young lover consider to live with you in the Gambia instead of Europe?
Or is his main goal to get out of Gambia? |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 23:10:15
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quote:
Originally posted by kondorong
[quote]Originally posted by njucks
[b][quote]Originally posted by kondorong
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I am out of this please. I am no social worker and no expertise please.
Thank heavens you are normal and NOT a social worker!,everywhere seems to be overrun with them these days often confusing those who they are supposed to help(?)you are by no means mad just trying to put your point of view over for consideration, good for you.
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2006 : 00:06:48
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Leokat, if i understand you correctly you have met this man in January and since then you two have been in contact through email, letter or maybe phone. Do you really feel that now you know him at all well??
The way you talk about this, gives me the feeling that you feel responsible for his happiness (for the rest of your lives?). Don't forget that there's your own happiness to consider as well. Be careful, it could be that now you will take too big steps to 'save' him, steps that you might later regret and you might even hold it against him.
Don't get me wrong, i understand and recognize the situation you are talking about. I live with a Gambian man 16 years younger than i am. Now this is hard for some people, even 'best friends', to grasp (if you want to know how people think about this, read Eve's posting elsewhere in this General Forum). You have to count on heartless comments from unexpected sides. Before we finally decided (together) that he would come and live me with me in Europe, i went to the Gambia many times and i took unpaid leave from my work to be with him there for longer periods of time - not living in hotels, but living 'local'. Last year he lived with me in Holland for two months on a tourist visa to see if he could be happy here and to see for himself that i had to work hard to keep my head above water. Only after that period we decided that both of us were convinced we could live together in my small apartment and on my small salary (because it will take time and a lot of paperwork and even a lot of money for visa etc. before your man can make a living in any European country), and only after that i had lenghty and difficult talks with my (adult) children who were not at all happy (to put it mildly) with this turn in my life.
Now, after he has been here for about 6 months, we can say that things are slowly, very slowly getting better, that everyone is getting used to everyone and that my Gambian man is settling in. I met him in 2002 and it has been a long, hard road.
But i don't even think it has to do with a European/Gambian relationship - don't you agree that to get into a serious relationship you need to take time and careful consideration? I myself would not like to be forced to take such important decisions because of 'circumstances'.
Furthermore, i think Kondorong was right when he said the need for a child might one day make your man to leave you. My man has a child from a former relationship in the Gambia, i know not having a child would be unbearable for him.
Leokat, take your time and try not to let your heart rule your head (at least not all the time). |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2006 : 00:15:17
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| Kondorong, even though you almost beg to be left out of this for now, i would like to let you know that i sincerely think that these postings of yours on this subject were very, very good and respectful. You were right in every respect! You could be a great social worker, by the way. |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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Babylon
Sweden
691 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2006 : 09:26:15
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I think these kind of relationships create a lot of questions.
You guys really think a young man will be happy with a woman unable to give him children, who is 20+ years his senior, who might as well be his mother?
What do you really think of elder women who act very selfish for their age and leave their husbands, jobs and basically ignore that their children and familys get hurt?
All this sacrifice for the sake of a holiday crush, who most certainly will leave their sugarmummy sooner or later when he has settled in Europe? ( How do we know? because we see it happen all the time...)
Where is the logic in these relationships? Is it love or is it lust, and are the women involved able to seperate between the 2 different factors?
Is it natural?
If it´s natural, why is it morally wrong both in the west and in Africa?
What kind of women fall for this, could it happen to just anyone or only a special type of respectless women with low selfesteem?
Sorry now if I sounded mean and heartless.
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2006 : 11:23:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Babylon
Leokat, can your young lover consider to live with you in the Gambia instead of Europe?
Or is his main goal to get out of Gambia?
/
That is a very good idea,if Leokat has decided that they should be together for more than a holiday. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2006 : 12:10:11
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Babylon, who decided it was morally wrong? If two people love each other I dont see anything wrong in that!
But Kon I agree with you. Leokat will have a very hard road to follow if she decides to marry this man. Perhaps it is best to walk away?
I am 46. I would find it very hard to accept that a man under, say 35, could truely love me. As a Westerner Leokat needs to be aware that Gambians concept of love tends to be more pragmatic that your Western romantic view. I am very septical and would be convinced that the man justed wanted a visa and would run away once he got to the UK!!!
I have met some lovely Gambian men, some of whom I have REALLY fancied and they have been very nice to me. BUT from that to MARRIAGE is a very big step. I am always suprised by womens lack of caution! Every year I meet women who have married younger Gambians. I hope it works for them, but one thing is sure, it is NOT an easy route to take.
For a marriage to a Gambian to work I think you need to get on VERY well with the family and like compound life. It is not enough to stay in the hotel! Also children is a BIG issue. You need to be able to give the man children IF he doesnt already have any children. Then there is Islam/Muslim culture. You need to be fully aware of womens role in Islam and be able to accept that.Finally you need to think about what your man will do if he comes to the UK. Is he employable?
My advice would be to take extended holidays in the Gambia and take things VERY slowly. If you intend to spend the rest of your life together.....what's the rush??!!
My main concern is for your family in UK. If you have children and parents what are there views? Your existing children should be your priority over ANY man. Men come and go, your children and parents are yours unconditionally.
Also financially you need to think about your children's future needs and make sure that is protected from any man coming into your life.
So sorry if this has turned into a lecture!!! I suppose it depends on your personality. Are you sensible and cautious or are you reckless?!
I am sensible. Perhaps too sensible at times. When I was in a similar situation I walked away and told him to get a Gambian girlfriend who could give him children. Other people would say life is very short , go for it and have some hapiness whilst you can!! |
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Babylon
Sweden
691 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2006 : 13:01:41
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quote:
Originally posted by gambiabev
Babylon, who decided it was morally wrong? If two people love each other I dont see anything wrong in that!
Well, maybe you don´t see anything wrong in that. But the love is often felt by the woman alone and the guy takes what he gets, cause he a poor guy.
I would bet a million on that most people are less openminded than you about it and dont think it´s cute to see a young stud with an old and in most cases, unattractive, lady.
Most people think It is disgusting.
Sort of like Jack Nicholson kissing the green old lady in "The Shining".
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Alhassan
Sweden
813 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2006 : 14:02:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Babylon
I think these kind of relationships create a lot of questions.
You guys really think a young man will be happy with a woman unable to give him children, who is 20+ years his senior, who might as well be his mother?
What do you really think of elder women who act very selfish for their age and leave their husbands, jobs and basically ignore that their children and familys get hurt?
All this sacrifice for the sake of a holiday crush, who most certainly will leave their sugarmummy sooner or later when he has settled in Europe? ( How do we know? because we see it happen all the time...)
Where is the logic in these relationships? Is it love or is it lust, and are the women involved able to seperate between the 2 different factors?
Is it natural?
If it´s natural, why is it morally wrong both in the west and in Africa?
What kind of women fall for this, could it happen to just anyone or only a special type of respectless women with low selfesteem?
Sorry now if I sounded mean and heartless.
Babylon,
I am a man , but children are not all here in live. My children has big age differences because of the fact that I was not sure if I wanted them or not. It was because I wanted to know them better. My present wife is fron SeneGambia like myself but we waited for tree years before having our first child. I was not sure because of many reasons. I hope these two solve their problem. Kondorongs posting should be taken into consideration, because of the past experience. I doubt if the migration authorities let him come if there is a big age differences. This has happened to both GHambians married to Gambians and Gambians married to Swedish or Finish citizen. Most Gambians in Stockholm have children with Finish women.
I would advise this woman to discuss more with her new found love.
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Babylon
Sweden
691 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2006 : 14:53:44
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Alhassan, you being an african, can you tell me wether it is accepted in the Gambia (by people in general) that a man marries a woman who is 20-40 years older?
What are the opinions?
My man, who is a muslim from Ivory Coast, thinks it´s nasty and that most people would think so. Even 10 years is a big age difference, although i know that in Islam it is allowed for a man to marry a woman who is max. 15 years older. |
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