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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 18:47:42
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quote:
Originally posted by blackerberry2004
quote:
Originally posted by kondorong
quote:
Originally posted by blackerberry2004
I agree with Baldeh that there can be no logical reason for supporting Darboe's candidature over NADD's programs. I am incline to believe that the majority of UDP/NRP support is derived from tribal and other trivial sentiments. Darboe has no agenda for Gambia and yet he wants us to give him carte blanc as a leader. A leader who does not divulge his stance or flip flops is quite dangerous. NADD is the way forward and I can assure you that Darboe would never be forgiven for his selfish acts. History will judge him harshly.
I dont agree with you. In a democracy, individuals are free to make choice of parties. That choice should not and cannot be subjected to morale judgement. That is why PDOIS does not ask Gambians to vote for them. They lay their programmes and let the voters decide. To tell them to vote for them is to interfere with this notion of individuals being "masters of their destinies" as championed by the party for many years.
Certainly people like MC Cham, Femi Peters, Shyngle Nyassi would not make the list if UDP is based on tribal sentiments. I think you statement highlighted above is very unfortunate. Then again, i understand we are all human.
I am a NADD supporter and i want to put on record here that your statements is not reflected in NADD principles and the ideals of both Halifa and PDOIS.
Kondorong,
I do not understand your idea of this democracy stuff. You have to sell your programs to people then ask them to vote for you.
All I am saying is that a lot of their supporters resort to tribal sentiments just like Jammeh has an overwhelming support from Jolas than from any other tribe. Mere coincidence? I guess not. Similarly, whites in America would never en masse vote for black president.
Unfortunately that is not Halifa's style of democracy. He is known to tell people to be masters of their destinies . In fact in the early days of PDOIS, they travel with their own buckets and draw water from the wells by themselves and cook for themselves and then meet at the Bantaba for a rally. The strategy was very foreign and it put off many Gambians who feel that it is their responsibility to take care of a guest and not the reverse. They sometimes sleep in their old Land Rovers in villages because being hosted is seen as " corrupting the minds of voters" , which undermines their sovereignty and legal rights that they are competent under the constitution to be responsible citizens.
This fundamental approach to governance, runs counter to the ideals of all parties who buy ASOBIS, pay YAI COMPINS, play drums and dance around till late. PDOIS has challenged the drumming and dancing characteristic of all the party rallies. Halifa and Sedia were stunt attackers of this style.
This socialist approach is very well manifested in the different layers of committees and consultations characteristic of NADD before the breakup. May be you cannot be a PDOIS supporter and Halifa in particular.
Someone made a posting that in many instances around the world; the majority party leads an alliance. We saw it in Israel, Ukraine, and Senegal etc. In a democracy, the majority party leads and governs. However in a socialist society, the idea of many parties does not exist. Its one big lump managed through central and bureaucratic committees. This believe in sovereignty and equality, makes it very difficult for PDOIS to recognize the majority support in UDP and to break away from their core principles of equality and sovereignty of its supporters. That is why it was agreed that all parties would have equal representation.
I don’t know if you have socialist ideals, but PDOIS certainly is and that includes Halifa.
Like i said in some postings, adversity breeds strange bedfellows. 15 years ago, no one in the Gambia would ever dream of OJ and Halifa being in a coalition. Those who have been old enough to witness the rallies in Serrekunda East, and the castigations made on the person of OJ by the NCP candidate etc. OJ was also accused of not being Gambian. Those who attended the rallies at the Bundung Mosque will bear me witness.
The break up is a manifestation of the differences in styles of governance among the parties. FJC was right when she said that the hatred the opposition had for each other is far greater that what they each have for APRC. NADD is an alliance of convenience and should be seen as such. Personally, i only gave them 50% chance of success. You cannot run with the hare and hunt with the hounds. It was just going to fail.
PPP never liked PDOIS. One of the biggest problems why PDOIS could not takeoff the ground was when Jawara went round the country saying that their socialist ideals means no one would own property which includes sheep goats, cattle etc. It was going to be a free for all.
Many Fulani herdsmen walked away never to trust PDOIS to this day. Socialism ran counter to right to ownership of property, which Gambians were used to. Jawara played on this weakness and without an outlet to explain themselves, PDOIS could not make any inroads. Some even went as far as saying that with PDOIS in power, one may be prepared to share ones wife for the good of the community. That was not true but some believed it. Gambians were told that socialism comes with giving up freedoms and right to ownership of property. Whilst Gambia’s foreign policy then was that of neutrality, certainly at home, she supported free commerce and embraced capitalism.
1994 was an opportunity for PDOIS to make their case known, the transitional programme and the debates made them household names. I dare say, without the 1994 coup, Halifa or PDOIS would never have led a coalition as head. Certainly not this early.
Ousainou is a product of one of the stunt opponents of PPP (Pierre Njie of the United Party who incidentally helped Ousainou in his early days), Ousainou stood against PPP in the 1981 Taxi Drivers attempted Coup trials and defended almost everyone including Sheriff Dibba. In many cases for free. There are historical problems in NADD that the young generation needs to study before apportioning blame. Waa studied in communist country (Romania or Bulgaria, not sure) and was student leader in the communist structure. He shared similar ideals with PDOIS but never joined them. He ran as independent only after being refused by the ruling party.
Infact UDP did initiate the idea of a coalition in 2001 and it failed. The reason why it never took off in 2001 is the same reason why it will not succeed in 2006. I believe that because of the frustrations in 2006, parties had no choice but to try to join hands after realising that indvidually they cannot bring a regime change. Howver the old scars of internal self government (1965 to 1970) and the first republic (1970 to 1994) were brought to the negotiating table.
Judging NADD in todays perspective is to make a serious error. To understand it, one has to befriend history and learn the political dynamics of Gambian politics. This hatred was one reason why Gambia's full independence was delayed for five years. History always repeats itself but with a difference.
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Edited by - kondorong on 23 Aug 2006 19:01:23 |
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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 18:56:21
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I guess there is a difference between understanding the issues at hand and speaking on them. Nyarikangbanna you wrote "The republicans had to attack his personality [especially regarding his voting pattern in the senate". John kerry's voting pattern was not on any personality but he was voting on the ISSUES. So just to help you differentiate between personality and programs- This was purely on issues and programs. This is exactly what is messing up your position because you cannot differentiate between where one stand on the issues and one's personality.
On this forum and many others we have mentioned that Darboe is a good citizen and a decent human being. However, his position on the issues especially on the opposition unity does not fit his personality and therefore makes him a political liability to our country. The man has a good moral judgement but does not seems to be able to exercise that in the political front. It is two things, either he is overwhelmed by politics, or he is being messed up big time by UDP loyalist like you and other so called UDP junkies.
Another issue that Nyarikangbanna needs help with is the difference between being one sided on the issues and just blindly rooting for one person's Leadership. As far as this forum to which you seems fairly new unless you disguise yourself again, you have repeatedly beat the Darboe drum without speaking on any issue whatsoever. This is what I mean when I said ONE sided rhetoric.
As for Ganbi, if you want to join the debate you need to read the postings and understand what is written. You seems to be confused in the middle of nowhere trying to identify yourself. No one said, anywhere that one should not support any candidate you want to support. What common sense dictates is that when there is negotiation going on, no one unless they are divisive should stand up and say without so and so candidate selected nothing is going to be achieved. This is the exact position Daffeh have always had until he was brought down to his knees.
To make things simple for you to understand, what we are simply saying is that Gambia is bigger than any one individual. No one party or candidate can salvage us all by themselves. So the only way forward is to get to the table and negotiate. If you decide you had enough and walked away, then it must be your decision to come back again and join the debate. On the issue of tribe yes I mentioned it and I know many people will not but they are hiding behind it and that is the hard fact.
Don't say, Don't tell will not cut it for them. If they argue only on personality issues and without outlining the programs of their party, then that is politics of personality and it smells tribalist or sectionalist. Until we are willing to break that barrier and openly talk about it, it will come back and hunt us down the road. We want to kill the seeds before the germinate. Regardless of whether you are Fula, Jola, or Mandinka, if you play the tribal card by hiding behind party majority, we will expose you nicked. This opposition debate has exposed many people and those who hide behind personality politics are quilty of riding the tribal lines. Tribalism is a historical fact and just like racism it is alive and well. Many have succeeded in moving it from the public arena to the private backyard. We can't tell who is one by physical appearance, but we can identify them through their lines of argument without substance. This is the hard fact we must deal with.
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Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 19:19:29
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| Good recapture Kons.You seems to have stripped the structure of the Gambia's opposition to the basics of ideology. Yet ideology appears deceptive here.Coutries like Senegal , and Israel can form a coalition government around a majority party because democracy is very much entrenched in those societies. The nature of Gambian society and laws makes it very prone to dictatorship by whoever rules. Therefore , any coalition must be preceeded by good house-keeping ( clear agreements as to the nature and terms of the coalition).Darboe appears to want the presidency without compromise and under unclear terms.If Darboe had been selected NADD flagbearer in the first place , would there be a united opposition despite differences of idelogy ? I very much think so . |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 19:29:48
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I cannot agree more. The differences in ideology will make a united opposition fail. May be, in 20 years when all the party leaders in the gambia have been disqualified by the constitution can we have a working coalition. For now, it will only remain a shadowy dream of a visionary.
Until that old generation that swore allegiance at Nyambai Forest are gone, and the group that created the animosities of the 1960s when people's houses were put on fire because of political differences also cease to exist or influence politics, lets forget about a coalition. |
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Jangjang
Austria
62 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 01:20:44
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Kon, I agree with all of your analyses of the marraige between parties with different ideologies. But that is known to UDP when they were joining NADD. We all know that opposotion parties are an alternative government in waiting with different programs. Or else they would have join the ruling party. When UDP came to the negotiating table they knew that they were the majority opposition party and they fairly knew the programs of other opposition parties especially PDOIS. Why did they not negotiate as other countries did, as the majority opposition party. Darboe had the veto power to agree or disagree to any agender before signing as stipulated in the MOU.The opposition parties knew that they have to come together to have any chance of winning the election. But why did Darboe gave gambians hope for a better future until the final hour just to quit without exhaushing the whole process. In conclusion, the breakup was not due to ideological differences but due to greed and inconsistency on the part of Darboe. He agreed to all that was signed until he knew that he was not going to be selected as the flag bearer when he started shouting MISTRUST! MISTRUST! Can any body tell me what Darboe disagreed to in the NADD MOU apart from the MISTRUST. If Darboe did not run away from what he has agreed to and signed as a lawyer, it would have been a different situation by now. By now Jammeh would have been parking to cross the border.
The second point is, should we always follow what other countries did even if it did not suit the Gambian situation? All the countries that form party lead governments in Africa have their individual problems of corruption, oppression, self perpectuating dictators, etc. the present situation in the Gambia calls for a transition Government to rectify all the ills caused by APRC and set a level playing field for all parties to contest an election. And that was the basis why NADD was formed. Why do we have to copy others when we have a different situation? |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 01:57:48
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Well there is no need to cry over spill milk. Its a done deal. Lets go back to the drawing board and get ready for 2011. APRC is here to stay. It is a reality that we must stomach. As to who is responsible, i believe we are all resposible for the mess period. Sending the blame game is no use.
The problem was no one wanted to give in. Some had principles that were too important to adjust whilst others have desires to lead without letting others. Either way, every one contributed to the mess. If you talk to NADD memebers, they point fingers at Darboe. If you talk to UDP they point fingers at many others. Since this is not a court of law, we might as well bury our heads in shame and prepare for another five years. The reality is, APRC has done a good job in maintaining their majority and followers in camp. We let ours loose and we must go out to bring them back.
LONG LIVE APRC |
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Biraago
Gambia
173 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 02:14:00
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Good points Jangjang,
No one ever dreamed of a Hasmas victory in January 2006, not even Hamas. Aparteid crumbled in an unblievable speed.
Sankara was freed from prison by the people to become a head of state.
Belief in the NADD program and trust the people's judgement even if most think that it is impossible.
Those who NADD wholehearted NADD supporters should concentrate in the coming weeks on exposing the dictatorial regime.
Ofcourse, some will try to divert our attention but, don't mind them. Reply only when neccessary.
Thanks for your consistency and courage. |
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ganbi
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 02:18:50
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quote:
Originally posted by dbaldeh
I guess there is a difference between understanding the issues at hand and speaking on them. Nyarikangbanna you wrote "The republicans had to attack his personality [especially regarding his voting pattern in the senate". John kerry's voting pattern was not on any personality but he was voting on the ISSUES. So just to help you differentiate between personality and programs- This was purely on issues and programs. This is exactly what is messing up your position because you cannot differentiate between where one stand on the issues and one's personality.
On this forum and many others we have mentioned that Darboe is a good citizen and a decent human being. However, his position on the issues especially on the opposition unity does not fit his personality and therefore makes him a political liability to our country. The man has a good moral judgement but does not seems to be able to exercise that in the political front. It is two things, either he is overwhelmed by politics, or he is being messed up big time by UDP loyalist like you and other so called UDP junkies.
Another issue that Nyarikangbanna needs help with is the difference between being one sided on the issues and just blindly rooting for one person's Leadership. As far as this forum to which you seems fairly new unless you disguise yourself again, you have repeatedly beat the Darboe drum without speaking on any issue whatsoever. This is what I mean when I said ONE sided rhetoric.
As for Ganbi, if you want to join the debate you need to read the postings and understand what is written. You seems to be confused in the middle of nowhere trying to identify yourself. No one said, anywhere that one should not support any candidate you want to support. What common sense dictates is that when there is negotiation going on, no one unless they are divisive should stand up and say without so and so candidate selected nothing is going to be achieved. This is the exact position Daffeh have always had until he was brought down to his knees.
To make things simple for you to understand, what we are simply saying is that Gambia is bigger than any one individual. No one party or candidate can salvage us all by themselves. So the only way forward is to get to the table and negotiate. If you decide you had enough and walked away, then it must be your decision to come back again and join the debate. On the issue of tribe yes I mentioned it and I know many people will not but they are hiding behind it and that is the hard fact.
Don't say, Don't tell will not cut it for them. If they argue only on personality issues and without outlining the programs of their party, then that is politics of personality and it smells tribalist or sectionalist. Until we are willing to break that barrier and openly talk about it, it will come back and hunt us down the road. We want to kill the seeds before the germinate. Regardless of whether you are Fula, Jola, or Mandinka, if you play the tribal card by hiding behind party majority, we will expose you nicked. This opposition debate has exposed many people and those who hide behind personality politics are quilty of riding the tribal lines. Tribalism is a historical fact and just like racism it is alive and well. Many have succeeded in moving it from the public arena to the private backyard. We can't tell who is one by physical appearance, but we can identify them through their lines of argument without substance. This is the hard fact we must deal with.
dbaldeh what made you think that I haven't read the postings before joining in. That shows how shallow you are don't you know that there are thousands of readers of this forum but very few contributors. You know when dry bones are mentioned old people become uncomfortable. Your posting above shows who you really are. So you think any new contributor you have not seen before is confused and trying to identity him/herself. How interesting. A healthy debate is where you sell your candidate and I sell mine and leave it to the people to decide who to choose. Why do you seem to have problem with other people selling their candidate. Why do want to take the escape route (tribalism). NADD doen't need your type who will stereotype other tribe to satisfy their own ego. What NADD needs is people who will sell their programs to those people against them inorder to win their hearts and minds. |
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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 04:20:46
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I know you read the pieces but you did not understand them. There is a difference between reading what is written and understanding it. As far as am concern you did not understand my postings and many others as well.
The hard fact is that we don't sell our candidate we sell the programs. If you think selling your candidate is what wins you votes, then you are still quilty of personality politics which feeds of off tribal groups.
This is the fundamental reason why the opposition coalition failed and would never have succeeded. While mature political figures like Halifa were engaged in selling the NADD program, many in the UDP camp were busy selling their candidate. It is NOT about the candidates but the programs that they have to offer. One need to mature out and look beyond any candidate only then can you fit in modern politics.
On this forum, and anywhere I have ever contributed, I have always advance the course of the national agenda. I am neither loyal to Halifa nor any other candidate. What am loyal to is whatever brings progress to the Gambian people. History and time will be the judge what camp I belong.
When I was growing up in the early 80s there was this slogan Gambians adopted "They cannot imagine Gambia without Jawara". Gambians were held hostage in this belief so much so that people were blinded by any need to prepare for the after Jawara. The outcome of relying only on one man, is the ultimate emergence of people like Yahya Jammeh who are willing to do whatever to maintain their power. This is the results of an ignorant and selfish elites.
Anyone can sell whatever they want, but the fact is that if you are busy selling personalities then you are either ignorant of modern political reality or lack self esteem. I will say this anywhere any place, the reason AFRICA as a whole is so backwarded in politics and economic freedom, is because we continue to play politics at a personality level. All the war Zones in Africa are all cause by personality and selfish individual politicians. All the killings are done in defense of NOT a program but an INDIVIDUAL Leadership.
Africa and Gambia shall never prosper so long as we have people thinking and acting like you do. Good examples of ignorant leaders who went all the way out to keep themselves and their associates in power can be found all over Africa and off course the present dictator in Gambia is a bright example. Charles tailor, Joseph momo, Edi Amin, Abacha, Cabila and countless others are all examples of how divide and rule affect our people. Our own service personell who kill and torture others to silence them against Jammeh are another example.
This is a disease that is rooted in our born marrows and one can see the blood running in GANBI thus your line of argument and thinking. It is a tragedy to still have educated elites who cannot differentiate between black and white. This is really a sad story and am sorry to have discovered that there is a lot more work we need to do to mentally free our people from mental political slavery. |
Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 09:27:23
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Thanks Dbaldeh thats the new breed of nationals we need to revitalise the spirit of patriotism in the interest of the nation.
Are you going by the ethics and moral values of "INTEGRITY! WITHOUT FEAR AND FAVOUR"? Consider yourself to be on the boat or out of the boat sailing towards its destiny with that TICKET PRICE |
Edited by - kobo on 24 Aug 2006 09:29:26 |
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Biraago
Gambia
173 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 10:09:49
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Thanks Baldeh,
This is what is called politics of conscience.
You have taken the bull by it's horns.
It's we now move to the nitty-gritty of the urgently needed transformation by educating those who are yearning for a progressive change.
We cannot be waiting time (although they are important as they are also Gambians) on these few distorted souls at this pressing hour of our struggle. We wish them the best as we wish it to ourselves.
Your engagements in the USA is keenly followed and is highly commendable.
Keep it up. God bless you and your community. |
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ganbi
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 12:27:39
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quote:
Originally posted by dbaldeh
When I was growing up in the early 80s there was this slogan Gambians adopted "They cannot imagine Gambia without Jawara". Gambians were held hostage in this belief so much so that people were blinded by any need to prepare for the after Jawara. The outcome of relying only on one man, is the ultimate emergence of people like Yahya Jammeh who are willing to do whatever to maintain their power. This is the results of an ignorant and selfish elites.
This is a disease that is rooted in our born marrows and one can see the blood running in GANBI thus your line of argument and thinking. It is a tragedy to still have educated elites who cannot differentiate between black and white. This is really a sad story and am sorry to have discovered that there is a lot more work we need to do to mentally free our people from mental political slavery.
Well I couldn't agree more to what you just said. don't you think that you are missing the point here. we are not in the west we are talking about Gambia. If programs sell for themselves PDOIS would have been running the affairs of the country by now. If NADD is going to sell only its programs then it will take them another 12 years to get through to the people as you clearly stated that it embedded in our bone marrow. At this crucial moment you cannot bring a foreign ideology and hope it works. If we really want to rescue the gambia tell the people what they really understand when you succeeded then you have job of educating the electorates. Am not talking to you and me sitting behind our keyboard saying whatever want but the people who are really going to make any change ie people you are going to vote. |
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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 19:22:21
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Ganbi, thanks for the debate. I absolutely refuse to accept that the idea of an informed, better, and advance society is a western idea. What is good for them and brings them human decency MUST be good for our people as well. The idea of West, Develop World, Versus Undevelop or Third World is a media jergon and it is meant to dehumanize and inject inferiority into our brains, and this appears to be working.
This is absolutely the first signs of human and political slavery. What the people in the west are able to understand, our people must be able to understand. Many of our people are non western educated, but they are educated in their own ways.
If the idea of electing officials to represent the best interest of the people and provide decent healthcare, decent education, decent infrastructure, advance life styles, and the rest for human dignity works in any society, it certainly can work for our people. We all humans, so what is good for one human must be good for another. So please, let us burry this Western idea Philosophy and educate our people to harvest the fruits of live - a free gift to humanity from the almighty.
Yes, you are right it might take twelve (12) years to get there, or twenty (20) years, but we must do everything in our powers to get there. It took the U.S.A and others over one hundred (100)years to get there. It cannot and must not take us that long to get there. We have the opportunity to even get better and we must seize that momentum.
This is where we must begin to change ONE mind, one after the other until we see light at the end of the tunnel. We must begin to rearm our people that they are better and deserve better than what they are getting. It is absolutely unacceptable to settle for the status quo you must agree. This is where we win each others conscience regardless of our political difference. Politics is what divide us, but common destiny is our goal and we must fight together.
As for brother Kobo, you bet, for me there is no other option but "INTEGRITY WITOUT FEAR OR FAVOR" in whatever we do.
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Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
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