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Janyanfara
Tanzania
1350 Posts |
 Posted - 11 May 2011 : 13:40:00
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quote:
Originally posted by terangba
Janyanfara
Moe is complicated one has to be willing to take both good and not so good side of THE MOE.
Good Analysis Bro; now what do you think will work
I know Moe is complicated but one thing is clear, truth always prevails therefore, Moe no matter what anyone does or says, truth shall always prevail |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 15:12:01
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Senegambia!
1. No one referred me as to whether I saw Dr. Saine's artice and hope those comments were not directed at me If my alias was tagged I would consider what appropriate action to take
2. I haven't made any attempt to dispel Dr. Saine's views! They are his own convictions; like others in how they perceived things and issues at stake for 2011
3. Did Dr. Saine referred to NADD in article that's in question or mentioned a single word on NADD IF SO PLEASE HELP ME WITH IT
4. I would reserve my opinions on Dr. Saine's comments as considered related or relevant with issues in this topic
However thanks for reactions!
quote:
Originally posted by Senegambia
I was telling the gentleman who asked whether you saw Dr Saine's article that I think you did, knowing your hunger for infomation having to do with NADD. By all means, your subjectivity is welcome by me. Good luck in trying to dispel Dr Saine's views if you have any plan to do so!
Best regards
quote:
Originally posted by kobo
WHAT DOES THESE COMMENTS AND Dr. SAINE'S ARTICLE HAVE TO DO WITH ME PLEASE SUBSTANTIATE
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Edited by - kobo on 12 May 2011 17:37:08 |
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sankalanka
270 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 17:59:15
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quote:
"I dont think it's about ironing out anything. The NADD coalition was gonna be a total failure due to the elements incorporated in it. The PPP came into the Coalition not as a group but two factions just like back in the day, divided we stand. Yahya Ceesay whom was banned from politics for 15 years came back as the chairman of the PPP and his entourage and decided to walk away from Nadd when they discovered it was not going to be an old guard thing. He left with his group BLK Sanyang, Omar Sey Dembo Jatta and other PPP ex ministers against the will of the other PPP faction O.J and group. WHY?" Moe.
Moe, I don't know how factual your account of the P.P.P. disintegration is, but the account I read is different.
"After the coup, the P.P.P., N.C.P and G.P.P. were banned as political parties. Only PDOIS and the PDP, whose leadership had no connection to the ousted government remained as active political parties. The banned political parties split into two camps. One camp rallied around the APRC while the other camp rallied around the UDP. Consequently, those who allied themselves with the old political forces voted for the U.D.P, and those who opposed the old political forces voted for the APRC." (SOURCE: PDOIS)
This account most probably is the reason why the UDP scored the highest percentage for any opposition party in our national elections, as you stated.
quote:
"Darboe had no other option but being the major opposition party to walk away from the nuissance. Historically in Gambia there was never a time, a prominent wollof had the chance of winnning any presidential election and if ya'll doubting what Big Poppa is saying now go ask people who knew the likes of PS Njie about the realities of that happening."
This is exactly what NADD was created to do; to break from the past. To give the country a new start and a new beginning, so that any other person from a different tribal background will be able to win elections, irrespective of the tribal background one hails from.
This is the reason why the strategic objective of NADD to win the elections, was to rely on the support base of all the opposition parties, irrespective of party size and strength to get a compromise candidate for the leadership, whom everyone would support.
This is also the reason why the power of this compromise candidate should that person have won the election was limited and restricted. There was to be a transitional government, and the person elected president would have been banned from seeking a second term, and would not support any other candidate in the next elections.
This in essence is what the opposition parties that formed NADD agreed to do. What they did later on is a completely different story.
quote:
"Darboe walked away with full support of Hamat Bah and the PPP remnants minus Pdois and the Old guard. Throughtout the history of the Gambia, if there was ever a chance for an opposition party to win I would assume would have been with Darboe as leader in 2006. Prior to that he had polled the highest margin , higher than what the NCP or any other opposition party has ever achieved. He was the legitimate flag bearer regardless of the circumstances surrounding the negotiation, and no one in their right minds can deny him that."
Well, all the opposition parties agreed to form NADD; they also all agreed to play by its rules.
Yes, if there was a chance for an opposition party to win an election throughout the history of the Gambia, it would have been under NADD and with any person it has chosen to lead it. There is no question of legitimacy here, because according to the mechanics in which NADD has agreed to choose its leader everyone was legitimate. Leadership was not to be conferred on anyone; you have to earn it.
The rest of what you said I believe is your opinion. You are entitle to it. Regards.
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Moe
USA
2326 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 21:05:47
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Darboes Polling record Prior to and after the Coalition formation.
UDP 1996 - 35.8%
The slight drop in 2006 was due to his subsequent arrest and murder charge stemming from the killing of an APRC supporter.
UDP 2001 - 32.6
UDP 2006 - 26.7%
After the Nadd alliance his support base dropped to 26.7 percent after they all decided to slaughter each other.
All am saying is with the right support and a little shoving the UDP party could have easily defeated the APRC, thats for certain. IF PDOIS added their 6% or 5 % to Darboes already 35% margin plus Hamats 12%. The APRC party would have had an opposition force to reckon with....................................Peace
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I am Jebel Musa better yet rock of Gibraltar,either or,still a stronghold and a Pillar commanding direction
The GPU wants Me Hunted Down for what I don't know ..... |
Edited by - Moe on 11 May 2011 21:09:24 |
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Moe
USA
2326 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 21:40:41
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quote:
"Moe, I don't know how factual your account of the P.P.P. disintegration is, but the account I read is different. "
"After the coup, the P.P.P., N.C.P and G.P.P. were banned as political parties. Only PDOIS and the PDP, whose leadership had no connection to the ousted government remained as active political parties. The banned political parties split into two camps. One camp rallied around the APRC while the other camp rallied around the UDP. Consequently, those who allied themselves with the old political forces voted for the U.D.P, and those who opposed the old political forces voted for the APRC." (SOURCE: PDOIS)
Thats what PDOIS wants you to hear and believe am assuming, PPP party came in two factions and the validity of this can be substantiated by checking with the mentioned parties.
quote:
"This is exactly what NADD was created to do; to break from the past. To give the country a new start and a new beginning, so that any other person from a different tribal background will be able to win elections, irrespective of the tribal background one hails from. "
Too bad for I know the language spoken in Darboes household is not his Birth language. There were old school leaders who dwelled on tribalism and its significance or insignificance but it is a strategy that worked for more than 50 years for them. If I ever mention UDP as being tribalist let me make this completely clear . it's in reference to the elements in it.
quote:
"This is the reason why the strategic objective of NADD to win the elections, was to rely on the support base of all the opposition parties, irrespective of party size and strength to get a compromise candidate for the leadership, whom everyone would support.
There should be no compromise candidate after the outlook of previous elections, the record speaks for itself.
This is also the reason why the power of this compromise candidate should that person have won the election was limited and restricted. There was to be a transitional government, and the person elected president would have been banned from seeking a second term, and would not support any other candidate in the next elections."
So the Candidate was basically a sacrifial lambwhich I think Darboe fit the profile , he will be out of politics after this election anyways aint it?
Yes, if there was a chance for an opposition party to win an election throughout the history of the Gambia, it would have been under NADD and with any person it has chosen to lead it. There is no question of legitimacy here, because according to the mechanics in which NADD has agreed to choose its leader everyone was legitimate. Leadership was not to be conferred on anyone; you have to earn it.
with a Polling record as high as 35.8 percent it is reason enough to be deemed the rightful leader of Nadd , dont you think....................................Peace |
I am Jebel Musa better yet rock of Gibraltar,either or,still a stronghold and a Pillar commanding direction
The GPU wants Me Hunted Down for what I don't know ..... |
Edited by - Moe on 11 May 2011 22:23:33 |
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sankalanka
270 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 01:03:07
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quote:
"Moe, I don't know how factual your account of the P.P.P. disintegration is, but the account I read is different. "
"After the coup, the P.P.P., N.C.P and G.P.P. were banned as political parties. Only PDOIS and the PDP, whose leadership had no connection to the ousted government remained as active political parties. The banned political parties split into two camps. One camp rallied around the APRC while the other camp rallied around the UDP. Consequently, those who allied themselves with the old political forces voted for the U.D.P, and those who opposed the old political forces voted for the APRC." (SOURCE: PDOIS)
quote:
"Thats what PDOIS wants you to hear and believe am assuming, PPP party came in two factions and the validity of this can be substantiated by checking with the mentioned parties."
Well, since PDOIS is the only party that is using its analytical skills to make inferences and draw conclusions, we have to weigh what they say against the reality of what actually happens, an decide whether to believe what they said or not.
So it is not a question of PDOIS wanting us to hear and believe, but rather whether what they have said happened.
Therefore, was the P.P.P., N.C.P and G.P.P. banned after the coup? The answer is in the affirmative.
When UDP was formed consequent upon the banned political parties, wasn't its support base largely dependent on, and wholly constituted by some membership of the P.P.P., N.C.P and G.P.P? The answer is also in the affirmative. Therefore, PDOIS's conclusion is not far fetched.
quote:
"This is exactly what NADD was created to do; to break from the past. To give the country a new start and a new beginning, so that any other person from a different tribal background will be able to win elections, irrespective of the tribal background one hails from. "
"Too bad for I know the language spoken in Darboes household is not his Birth language. There were old school leaders who dwelled on tribalism and its significance or insignificance but it is a strategy that worked for more than 50 years for them. If I ever mention UDP as being tribalist let me make this completely clear . it's in reference to the elements in it."
Moe, this is where you are getting it wrong. The argument is and was never about Lawyer Darboe. The argument is and was about a process or processes.
( I have to leave on an emergency, I will pick up this point later.)
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Moe
USA
2326 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 01:59:58
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| Well am assuming that since the NCP GPP and PPP were banned from active politics then the failures of thr CRC in April could be blamed on the participating political parties namely PDOIS and PDP. The referendum for the new constitution was approved by the APRC, PDOIS and PDP. How they managed to come out with such a constitution with 70% support is unimaginable. The question NOW is why was such a vague constitution supported by the incumbent parties, I hear all this rhetoric about presidential term limits but in my opinion someone was hoping to benefit from that since Jammeh was only there supposedly for a short period of time. I think PDOIS and PDP should have gained an upper hand since they were the only political parties operational at the time. The issue is not Darboe or the UDP best believe that, The Gambian problem is more complicated than it seems..............Peace |
I am Jebel Musa better yet rock of Gibraltar,either or,still a stronghold and a Pillar commanding direction
The GPU wants Me Hunted Down for what I don't know ..... |
Edited by - Moe on 12 May 2011 03:57:25 |
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sankalanka
270 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 09:12:37
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quote:
This is exactly what NADD was created to do; to break from the past. To give the country a new start and a new beginning, so that any other person from a different tribal background will be able to win elections, irrespective of the tribal background one hails from. "
"Too bad for I know the language spoken in Darboes household is not his Birth language. There were old school leaders who dwelled on tribalism and its significance or insignificance but it is a strategy that worked for more than 50 years for them. If I ever mention UDP as being tribalist let me make this completely clear . it's in reference to the elements in it."
Moe, this is where you are getting it wrong. The argument is and was never about Lawyer Darboe. The argument is and was about a process or processes.
( I have to leave on an emergency, I will pick up this point later.)
The coup had provided a unique opportunity to foster the growth of a mature democracy, a constitutional arrangement that makes peaceful change possible, and see the birth of a new republic.
However, from all the opposition and argument that I am seeing this has not been the case. There has not been a presidential term limits, and the pattern of political developments mirrors exactly what happened in the first republic, where opposition political parties were marginalized and weakened.
Just like before, we have come to the point where no opposition party can single handedly win a sitting government in an election. This is what happened for the 30 years of P.P.P rule, and this is what we are witnessing now.
It was against this backdrop, I believe, that NADD was created and its ideals and institutional framework, supported the building of democratic structures and processes, that hopes to move away from concentrating too much power in the hands of one person. So it was never about any person; it was about the building of democratic structures and processes.
quote:
"This is the reason why the strategic objective of NADD to win the elections, was to rely on the support base of all the opposition parties, irrespective of party size and strength to get a compromise candidate for the leadership, whom everyone would support.
"There should be no compromise candidate after the outlook of previous elections, the record speaks for itself."
This might as well have been the case. But there were rules, and they all agreed to go by those rules. They have to come to a consensus to select a candidate; but there was no consensus.
And if there was no established process to confirm or validate the candidate whose previous election record speaks for itself, then it would have defeated the whole institutional edifice upon which NADD was built.
This is also the reason why the power of this compromise candidate should that person have won the election was limited and restricted. There was to be a transitional government, and the person elected president would have been banned from seeking a second term, and would not support any other candidate in the next elections."
quote:
"So the Candidate was basically a sacrifial lambwhich I think Darboe fit the profile , he will be out of politics after this election anyways aint it?"
Moe, I am not insinuating any such thing. I am just trying to relate to the dynamics as I understand it.
Yes, if there was a chance for an opposition party to win an election throughout the history of the Gambia, it would have been under NADD and with any person it has chosen to lead it. There is no question of legitimacy here, because according to the mechanics in which NADD has agreed to choose its leader everyone was legitimate. Leadership was not to be conferred on anyone; you have to earn it.
quote:
"with a Polling record as high as 35.8 percent it is reason enough to be deemed the rightful leader of Nadd , dont you think....................................Peace"
Moe, I don't think that has ever been doubted. That is not the point. The point is about process and processes as I alluded to. Lawyer Darboe if he had agreed to subject himself to the process and processes that were agreed to, will no doubt have been on the top.
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 10:56:29
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WE ALWAYS WITNESS BOGUS ARGUMENTS, CREATING NEW VERSIONS AND SHIFTING OF POSITIONS ON NADD DEBACLE
WELL DONE SANKALANKA; ESPECIALLY ON THIS RATIONALE TO PROMOTE PARTISAN POLITICS OR DIVIDE AND RULE POLICIES
"Too bad for I know the language spoken in Darboes household is not his Birth language. There were old school leaders who dwelled on tribalism and its significance or insignificance but it is a strategy that worked for more than 50 years for them. If I ever mention UDP as being tribalist let me make this completely clear . it's in reference to the elements in it." MOE
"Moe, this is where you are getting it wrong. The argument is and was never about Lawyer Darboe. The argument is and was about a process or processes." ALSO I MAY ADD THAT ARGUMENTS WERE ON FORMATION, COMMON GROUND, MASS MOBILISATION, STRATEGIES, TACTICS, FORMALITIES, DOCUMENTATION, ITS TERMS UNDER MOU, LEGAL FRAMEWORK, POSITION OF SIGNATORIES, REGISTRATION AND CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES?
"This is exactly what NADD was created to do; to break from the past. To give the country a new start and a new beginning, so that any other person from a different tribal background will be able to win elections, irrespective of the tribal background one hails from. " Sankalanka
NADD SIMPLY REPRESENTS A "NATIONAL ALLIANCE" AND THE PLATFORM FOR ALL OPPONENTS AGAINST JAMMEH/APRC FOR "DEVELOPMENT" & "DEMOCRACY"; OWNED BY ALL STAKEHOLDERS (PARTICIPATING IN SPIRIT OF PARTNERSHIP & SOLIDARITY)
YOU MAY CONTINUE AS MOE IS DOING A GOOD JOB HOLDING BRIEF FOR OTHERS WITH HIS VIEWS BEING EXPRESSED; AMONGST OTHERS
ON THE OTHER HAND, MOE IS AN ENEMY WITHIN AND WOULD NEVER ALLOW ANY CHALLENGE AGAINST JAMMEH/APRC; WHO STORMED OPPOSITION CAMP AS COMMANDO TO SHATTER THEM INTO PIECES; THROUGH THIS NEWS OF "DARBOE HOPEFUL OF OPPOSITION ALLIANCE" |
Edited by - kobo on 12 May 2011 14:24:10 |
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terangba
Egypt
225 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 14:30:49
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quote:
"This is exactly what NADD was created to do; to break from the past. To give the country a new start and a new beginning, so that any other person from a different tribal background will be able to win elections, irrespective of the tribal background one hails from. " Sankalanka
This is a noble idea and it should be encouraged; I have always and will continue to preach that the best and the brightest should be given the chance/opportunity to lead; what I do not like to see is the chance of winning take back seat to the NADD concept. In the mean time is it possible to go with the most winnable concept?
UDP Supporters should be send MOE a thank you note after this clear and convincing argument:
quote:
"Ask Assan Musa Camara why Nadd failed?, he was the chairman of NADD, I dont see how a party with over 38 percent of the votes on its record cannot be accepted as the Coalition leader. It is a known fact that the UDP and NRP were the two largest political parties and Pdois being the smallest. What kind of engineer would even consider making Halifa a Flag bearer unless something was really funny about Darboe which I doubt." MOE
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God gave men dominion over the beasts and not over his fellow men unless they submit of their own free will. - Napoleon |
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sankalanka
270 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 15:36:40
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quote:
"Well am assuming that since the NCP GPP and PPP were banned from active politics then the failures of thr CRC in April could be blamed on the participating political parties namely PDOIS and PDP.
These arguments, particularly PDOIS's alleged complicity in promoting "a vague constitution" has been fiercely argued over the years, particularly between the period after 1996 on the Gambia-l forum.
However, the role that PDOIS played in the whole exercise and the rationale that dictated its course of actions and decisions, have all been well documented in a series namely FOCUS ON POLITICS, on its website. There is no need for me to regurgitate those arguments here again.
There is a detailed examination of everything that transpired during the Coup, and its aftermath including the Constitutional Review Commission (CRC).
quote:
"The referendum for the new constitution was approved by the APRC, PDOIS and PDP. How they managed to come out with such a constitution with 70% support is unimaginable."
It should not be unimaginable. There was an intense campaign for the constitution to be approved by the people. PDOIS lends it support to the approval of the constitution, dictated by its belief that it was better to return the country to a constitutional civilian government, even under a flawed constitution, than to continue governing the country under decrees.
Again the arguments they made to justify their position is well documented from the same source I have mentioned, Focus On Politics, with letters and correspondence to the CRC.
Their intention therefore should not be misconstrued other than the fact that there was a desire, to see their country return back to civilian constitutional rule.
quote:
" The question NOW is why was such a vague constitution supported by the incumbent parties, I hear all this rhetoric about presidential term limits but in my opinion someone was hoping to benefit from that since Jammeh was only there supposedly for a short period of time.
"I think PDOIS and PDP should have gained an upper hand since they were the only political parties operational at the time. The issue is not Darboe or the UDP best believe that, The Gambian problem is more complicated than it seems..............Peace"
Moe, I am convinced that the only benefit PDOIS hoped to gain from its involvement and support of the constitution, was to return the country to a civilian democratic dispensation. Unless, of course, you prove otherwise.
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 16:25:42
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quote:
Originally posted by terangba
UDP Supporters should be send MOE a thank you note after this clear and convincing argument:
"Ask Assan Musa Camara why Nadd failed?, he was the chairman of NADD, I dont see how a party with over 38 percent of the votes on its record cannot be accepted as the Coalition leader. It is a known fact that the UDP and NRP were the two largest political parties and Pdois being the smallest. What kind of engineer would even consider making Halifa a Flag bearer unless something was really funny about Darboe which I doubt." MOE
HOW IS ABOVE A CLEAR AND CONVINCING ARGUMENT
Review statements point by point and sentence by sentence again; split as follows?
1. "Ask Assan Musa Camara, why NADD failed?"
THERE ARE ARCHIVES ON RECORD OF ASSAN MUSA CAMARA STATEMENTS FROM PRESS REPORTS FOR STATEMENTS OF FACTS?
2. "It is a known I dont see how a party with over 38 percent of the votes on its record cannot be accepted as the Coalition leader."
Terms are negotiated, reviewed and finally agreed. Who said Lawyer Darboe cannot be accepted as coalition leader or what denied him to be flag bearer under under NADD's MOU? Leadership/flag bearer is catered for under NADD'S MOU and proper communication would have resolved any leadership crises.
WHAT HAPPENED IS TO BREAK-AWAY BEFORE EVEN A FLAG BEARER WAS DECLARED AND GIVEN THE BLESSINGS THROUGH CONSENSUS?
3. "It is a known fact that the UDP and NRP were the two largest political parties and Pdois being the smallest."
WHY DID NRP DESSERT UDP THEN; FOR THEY ALLIED TOGETHER?
Another case in point is in UK politics. Liberal Democrats were third in UK elections but served as the key-players and crucial deciders to form any government; when a "HUNG PARLIAMENT" was delivered through general elections; for a COALITION GOVERNMENT. They could have denied Tories (which was largest opposition party and leading general elections) and form a COALITION GOVERNMENT with Labour (who were won but came in second place). The Coalition government came after series of consultations, negotiations, synchronised policies and agreements which wooed Liberal Democrats towards Tories; instead of Labour.
PLEASE ALSO NOTE THAT ITS ABOUT FORMING A COALITION GOVERNMENT AFTER ELECTIONS, DIFFERENT FROM MAINSTREAM POLITICAL PARTIES ENGAGING EACH OTHER TO MOBILISED PRIOR; TO FIGHT A BATTLE TOGETHER BEFORE ELECTIONS AND SALVAGE THE COUNTRY THROUGH A NATIONAL ALLIANCE; FROM CLUTCHES OF TYRANT AND A GOVERNMENT WITH OUTRAGEOUS SAGAS (AS THE COMMON GOAL)
"Coalition is a "partnership" with both members working in unison to tackle difficult issues rather than one constantly attempting to restrain the other"
4. What kind of engineer would even consider making Halifa a Flag bearer unless something was really funny about Darboe which I doubt." MOE
THAT A NASTY INSULT TO GAMBIAN DEMOCRACY AND ITS DECENT HUMBLE POLITICIANS
WITHOUT BARREL OF GUN AND COUP JAMMEH WOULD NEVER HAVE BECAME PRESIDENT OF THE GAMBIA THROUGH BALLOT BOX AND ALREADY SEALING VICTORY BY SWEEPING 2011 ELECTIONS WITH TRACTORS FOR 90% MARGIN
EVERYONE IS ENTITLED TO OPINION.
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Edited by - kobo on 12 May 2011 18:21:19 |
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terangba
Egypt
225 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 18:46:39
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This late in the game I dont know why there is no compromise. I think the following statement is a CLEAR AND CONVINCING ARGUMENT
"I dont see how a party with over 38 percent of the votes on its record cannot be accepted as the Coalition leader. It is a known fact that the UDP and NRP were the two largest political parties and Pdois being the smallest." MOE |
God gave men dominion over the beasts and not over his fellow men unless they submit of their own free will. - Napoleon |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 22:03:12
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TEARANGBA! If you don't digest above comments; then IN SIMPLE TERMS MAKE IT WORK FOR UDP\NRP ALLIANCE TO HAVE DARBOE PRESIDENT AND HAMAT BAH VICE PRESIDENT. THEY FORMED AN ALLIANCE BUT UNDER WHAT TERMS
NOW HAMAT IS ON HIS OWN
IT IS INTERESTING TO CONSIDER HOW AND WHY THEY PART COMPANY
CONVINCE ME |
Edited by - kobo on 12 May 2011 22:39:27 |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
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