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kobo



United Kingdom
7765 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2014 :  07:24:26  Show Profile Send kobo a Private Message  Reply with Quote


1. CONCERNING DEATH WHICH OF THE TWO IS TRUE OR FALSE?

A. Some things still can't be explained or understood.

B. Some things still can't be explained but are understood.

2. DEATH:
  • Death is a reality in which all human beings believe. Death is the reality from which none can escape. It draws nearer every day; every hour; every minute; every second; until the clock stops. There is one thing we can be sure of: we (all of us) are going to die.

  • "Regardless of a person’s particular belief system, however, the fact remains that death is the end of life … or at least life as we know it (through "superstition", "religion" or "spirituality")? Death, dying, and the afterlife are all shrouded in deep mystery, cloaked in darkness and generally surrounded by fear and apprehension. The very idea of death strikes fear into many people’s hearts." Everyone is scared of dying and rightly so. Interestingly, it is a reality which most of us like to keep out of our minds.

  • Why are human beings totally powerless to prevent or overcome death?

  • Throughout history, different mythologies and theologies have explained the nature of death in countless ways..Regardless of race, religion, geographical area, or time period, every human has wondered about the one fact of life that unifies us all: What is death?

3. DEATH COMES ANY SECOND, WHETHER CONSIDERED NATURAL OR ACCIDENTAL, IT IS INEVITABLE BUT WHAT DO WE (ALL OF US) MAKE OF THAT FACT

4. Why is it mysterious NO ONE KNOWS WHEN TO DIE

5. WHAT IS DEATH? DO WE NEED SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATION OR COMMON SENSE TO UNDERSTAND IT?
  • "Death is the cessation of all biological functions that sustain a living organism. Phenomena which commonly bring about death include biological aging (senescence), predation, malnutrition, disease, suicide, murder and accidents or trauma resulting in terminal injury. Bodies of living organisms begin to decompose shortly after death. There is no convincing scientific evidence that suggests consciousness survives the death of an organism." = A SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATION

  • "The most common cause of human deaths in the world is heart disease, followed by stroke and other cerebrovascular diseases, and in the third place lower respiratory infections." = A SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATION

  • "Natural" death explained as "death that occurs from "natural causes", as disease or old age, rather than from violence or an accident" but "natural disaster" can happen but do we understand why many do die at very young age and "forces of nature"? Also "illness" and "accident(s)" cannot cause you to die for you can be very seriously ill and have a very serious accident(s) and recover to live longer or have a long life. Therefore disease,"illness" and "accident" are not the only causes of death. Why is death a mystery

  • "In society, the nature of death and humanity's awareness of its own mortality has for millennia been a concern of the world's religious traditions and of philosophical inquiry."

6. Any possibility that death may not actually be the end. Is there life after death and do we need to prepare for it

7. Are we, in some sense, immortal? Would immortality be desirable

8. What does it mean to say that a person has died? What kind of fact is that? Why do we have different attitudes to death? Is suicide morally permissible? Is it rational? Is death an evil? How? Why? "There are so many questions with so many underlying contradictory assumptions by mankind on "Death"

9. How should the knowledge that I am going to die affect the way I live my life? Are your DEEDS during life important after death

10. WHAT IS IT TO DIE? IS DEATH END GAME FOR EVERY LIVING SOUL OR THINGS WITH LIFE = NO "RESURRECTION"; WE DON'T NEED GOD, RELIGION OR PRAYERS; FINISH AND THAT'S IT YOU ARE NO MORE; GONE FOREVER AND SHOULD BE FORGOTTEN LIKE DEATH ANIMALS AND PLANTS TO ROT OR TURN INTO "ASHES"; ORIGINAL STATE OF "MATTER"!

RELATED BANTABA TOPIC Visiting Graves

Edited by - kobo on 08 Apr 2014 22:11:01

kayjatta



2974 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2014 :  10:54:58  Show Profile Send kayjatta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Let me try. First off, you have raised so many questions with so many underlying contradictory assumptions. "Death" has medical, legal and philosophical meanings.
Secondly, there is a fine line between being alive and being dead especially when you consider at the microbial level-viruses. Thirdly, philosophers have long argued that the mind and the body are separate (Cartesian dualism)and that the body may die but the mind never dies. This concept is since disputed but recently a medical doctor came out in support of it. This concept may also underlie the religious belief in the soul and life after death?
Fourthly, considering today's technology, life without ever dying may not be too far away in the future.
For example the recent television dramas among family members, doctors and lawyers over so-called 'brain dead' patients on life support illustrates the medical, legal and philosophical contradictions in what constitutes "death" .
Please note that this is only a small part of the answer (if it's an answer at all). This questions are huge and may never be answered adequately...
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kisley



United Kingdom
214 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2014 :  16:40:10  Show Profile Send kisley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Quote from Richard Dawkins


“We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here.We privileged few, who won the lottery of birth against all odds, how dare we whine at our inevitable return to that prior state from which the vast majority have never stirred?”

#8213; Richard Dawkins, Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder
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kobo



United Kingdom
7765 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2014 :  22:07:59  Show Profile Send kobo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kayjatta

1ST POINT: I have added this statement that ""There are so many questions with so many underlying contradictory assumptions by mankind on "Death"" under note 8. above, not to bother too much on your comment because most of questions raised were my thoughts and others selected from millions out there to introduce topic; provoking thoughts or generate interests.

2nd POINT: To some extent I can be convince that "SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATION" are useful to understand certain aspects, conditions and causes of "Death" but I don't understand your "medical, legal and philosophical meanings" from this comment that ""Death" has medical, legal and philosophical meanings." It would interesting to hear you clarify further?

3rd POINT: From your comment for "Secondly, there is a fine line between being alive and being dead especially when you consider at the microbial level-viruses." Can I take that in simple terms that its either "life" or "death" but can be at "coma" (between life & death); biologically supported? It would be interesting to hear from you and we learn further on your point? Also what is microbial level-viruses and how is it "considered" concerning "Death"?

4th POINT: Do you believe in this concept or are you convince on "Cartesian dualism" from your statement that "Thirdly, philosophers have long argued that the mind and the body are separate (Cartesian dualism)and that the body may die but the mind never dies. This concept is since disputed but recently a medical doctor came out in support of it. This concept may also underlie the religious belief in the soul and life after death?" Reminded that BRAIN CELLS ARE PART OF HUMAN ORGANISM, so if someone die brain does not function. ANYONE THAT DIE IS JUST COMPLETELY DEATH???

5th POINT: Relating to 4th POINT; what do you make of this statement "There is no convincing scientific evidence that suggests consciousness survives the death of an organism."?

6th POINT: Impossible is my verdict from your note that "Fourthly, considering today's technology, life without ever dying may not be too far away in the future."? = IMMORTALITY NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN!

7th POINT: You have ultimately validated this indisputable verse 185:3 above, from the noble quran and FACT OF LIFE, "kulu nafsheen zaayi hatul maw si" translated as "EVERY SOUL SHALL TASTE OF DEATH!". My standpoint is dictated by validating all logic and valid proofs from holy quran on "TREE OF LIFE" and authenticating this holy book as a "COMPLETE CODE OF LIFE" and a wonderful book of moral teachings, as we continue discoursive analysis of death. We highly welcome any valid reasoning on death from other religious books, philosophical and scientific analysis, that contrast facts, common sense and basic logic interpreted from the quran on "TREE OF LIFE"

Edited by - kobo on 09 Apr 2014 10:11:31
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kobo



United Kingdom
7765 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2014 :  00:01:33  Show Profile Send kobo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kisley I found your quote from ATHEIST HIGH PRIEST Richard Dawkins intriguing and perplex with these spiritual norms; like "unborn ghosts" and "our inevitable return to that prior state from which the vast majority have never stirred?” Was he bewitch to postulate such ideas on spirituality, superstition (notion of ghost) and some form of illusions

How is it possible for atheist to have some form of SPIRITUAL INSIGHT to understand that; "Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here.We privileged few, who won the lottery of birth against all odds, how dare we whine at our inevitable return to that prior state from which the vast majority have never stirred?"Richard Dawkins, Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder = OBVIOUSLY "LIFE & DEATH", NATURE AND/OR CREATIONS ARE EXTRAORDINARY WONDERS OR ASTOUNDING MARVELOUS PHENOMENA BUT WHAT DOES THESE MEAN TO ATHEIST; ESPECIALLY THE HIGH PRIEST ALSO CONFIRMING THE INEVITABLE REALITY THAT "IF YOU TASTE LIFE YOU MUST DIE"

Already this indisputable verse 185:3 above, from the noble quran and FACT OF LIFE, "kulu nafsheen zaayi hatul maw si" translated as "EVERY SOUL SHALL TASTE OF DEATH!" validated and confirmed by an atheist High Priest

The quotation also confirmed Richard Dawskins "marveling" at "prior state" and made humor on our existence (life and death = winning "lottery of birth" & "inevitable return to prior state"); a common knowledge and same perception. Can you do further research and forward his perception of "after life"(or after death) from the book: Richard Dawkins, Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder

Edited by - kobo on 10 Apr 2014 05:03:50
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kayjatta



2974 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2014 :  09:23:43  Show Profile Send kayjatta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
TO CLARIFY AS YOU REQUESTED KOBO:

2ND POINT: Death is a medical question (for example a pathologist's report could establish death).
Death is also a legal question (for example a court cetified death certificate could establish death). Death is also a philosophical question (for example what happens to a person's mind- his thoughts, experiences and perceptions after his physical body is dead).
3RD POINT: viruses on their own are non-living because they carry out no biological function, but as soon as they enter another living organism, they immediately spring to life and start reproduing. Therefore the boundary between life and death is very murky here.
4th POINT: cartesian dualism (after Rene Descartes) is very problematic, but it makes a lot of sense if you belief in the soul, spirits, ghosts or even life after death.
When a brain dead patient is on life support, his bodily physiological functtions are working but his brain does not process any new information-the so-called vegetative state. This is often a serious battle ground among doctors, lawyers, and familiy members whose individual conceptions of what constitutes death comes into direct conflict.
5TH POINT: I am an Einsteinian in that even if I have seen a ghost, I wouldn't believe it. So consciousness after death-the mind as free floating waves, ghosts or spirits in the universe is a problematic concept for me.
7TH POINT: I have no problem with the verse you have quoted. I do know that modern technology in regenerative DNA techniques, lab-grown-rgans, cloning, cyborgs (man-machine combinations), and digital avartas to name a few; the possibility of eternal life on earth may not be extremely far-fetched....
Please note that I do not personally endorse or validate any of these views. These are just some of the vast cutting edge information (knowledge) out there, many of which are likely to upset and transform traditional views about everything....
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toubab1020



9474 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2014 :  03:04:06  Show Profile Send toubab1020 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You have a,nice day KOBO,and be happy !

"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.

Edited by - toubab1020 on 10 Apr 2014 03:06:06
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kobo



United Kingdom
7765 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2014 :  06:27:39  Show Profile Send kobo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
kayjatta Thanks for post and clarifying further your points.

"Death is a medical question (for example a pathologist's report could establish death).
Death is also a legal question (for example a court certified death certificate could establish death). "


POINT 1: You briefly referred or explained "An autopsy — also known as a post-mortem (meaning after death) examination, necropsy (particularly as to non-human bodies), autopsia cadaverum, or obduction — (which) is a highly specialized surgical procedure that consists of a thorough examination of a corpse to determine the cause and manner of death and to evaluate any disease or injury that may be present. It is usually performed by a specialized medical doctor called a pathologist.

Autopsies are performed for either legal or medical purposes. For example, a forensic autopsy is carried out when the cause of death may be a criminal matter, while a clinical or academic autopsy is performed to find the medical cause of death and is used in cases of unknown or uncertain death, or for research purposes. Autopsies can be further classified into cases where external examination suffices, and those where the body is dissected and internal examination is conducted. Permission from next of kin may be required for internal autopsy in some cases. Once an internal autopsy is complete the body is reconstituted by sewing it back together." = ONLY TO PRODUCE A REPORT BUT CERTAIN DEATHS ARE INCONCLUSIVE AND A MYSTERY!

POINT 2: Autopsy is medical, performed after DEATH but not helpful at all to PREVENT DEATH. On the other hand is there anything DOCTORS can do through medicine and medical treatment that can PREVENT DEATH; since ""Death is a medical question""? = NO THERE ISN'T ANY. AN AUTOPSY REPORT IS ONLY PRODUCED AFTER THE BODY IS LIFELESS, BUT AM WONDERING WHERE IS LIFE COMING AND GOING; INCLUDING ALL STAGES OF BIOLOGICAL LIFE-CYCLE; INCLUDING GROWTH, AGEING & MORTALITY (OR DEATH)

"Death is also a philosophical question (for example what happens to a person's mind- his thoughts, experiences and perceptions after his physical body is dead)."

POINT 3: IN THE SEARCH FOR ANSWERS OF MANKIND'S EXISTENCE, INTELLIGENCE; REVELATION & BIRTH OF RELIGION= Through Metaphysical; intellectual; philosophical, spiritual, mystical, myths and transcendental vision are all boundless territory explored; that gave mankind consciousness, knowledge of mankind's existence and better insight of nature (of God); civilization & advancement of society (mankind). DOES GOD EXIST AND CAN LIFE & DEATH GUIDE US TO GOD AND THE DIVINE KINGDOM

"viruses on their own are non-living because they carry out no biological function, but as soon as they enter another living organism, they immediately spring to life and start reproducing. Therefore the boundary between life and death is very murky here."

POINT 4: Viruses are micro-organisms and foreign bodies and since I have limited science knowledge I don't fully understand your point but there must be a host and right conditions and environment for life

"cartesian dualism (after Rene Descartes) is very problematic, but it makes a lot of sense if you belief in the soul, spirits, ghosts or even life after death."

POINT 5: I don't get your point but did google search research for benefit of readers to learn. NOTES AND QUOTES ON René Descartes:
  • Philosophical work: "Descartes is often regarded as the first thinker to emphasize the use of reason to develop the natural sciences. For him the philosophy was a thinking system that embodied all knowledge, and expressed it in this way:
"Thus, all Philosophy is like a tree, of which Metaphysics is the root, Physics the trunk, and all the other sciences the branches that grow out of this trunk, which are reduced to three principals, namely, Medicine, Mechanics, and Ethics. By the science of Morals, I understand the highest and most perfect which, presupposing an entire knowledge of the other sciences, is the last degree of wisdom."
  • Religious beliefs: "The debate continues whether Descartes was a Catholic apologist, or an atheist concealed behind pious sentiments who placed the world on a mechanistic framework, within which only man could freely move due to the grace of will granted by God." More from Wikipedia on René Descartes
"When a brain dead patient is on life support, his bodily physiological functions are working but his brain does not process any new information-the so-called vegetative state. This is often a serious battle ground among doctors, lawyers, and family members whose individual conceptions of what constitutes death comes into direct conflict."

POINT 6: Death is not coma or a medical condition, one is pronounced death if you are lifeless! DEATH defined as "the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism." My concern is that the end of life and death only thing that awaits us after tasting life? = BODY CAN ROT, NO MORE FOREVER; GONE AND FORGOTTEN; NO GOD, RELIGION USELESS, DEEDS NOT IMPORTANT, NO RESURRECTION EVER BUT WHERE IS LIFE COMING & GOING

"I am an Einsteinian in that even if I have seen a ghost, I wouldn't believe it. So consciousness after death-the mind as free floating waves, ghosts or spirits in the universe is a problematic concept for me."

POINT 7: Better be Scientology. Again I don't get your point but to made few notes on Einstein for benefit of readers;

"I have no problem with the verse you have quoted. I do know that modern technology in regenerative DNA techniques, lab-grown-organs, cloning, cyborgs (man-machine combinations), and digital avartas to name a few; the possibility of eternal life on earth may not be extremely far-fetched...."

POINT 9: = QUOTE: Francois de La Rochefoucauld "Nothing is impossible; there are ways that lead to everything, and if we had sufficient will we should always have sufficient means. It is often merely for an excuse that we say things are impossible.". Saying "IMPOSSIBLE" IS NOT "AN EXCUSE" for me on your comment!

DEATH IS INEVITABLE! Even if we are cloned 100% perfect human beings (in flesh, bones & physiology) all of us will surely die; and there will surely be "the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism."!

POINT 10: Illuminati (New World Order) = Age of Dajjal (system) as my standpoint is Islam (Quran & authentic hadith); your examples are signs

EXTRACTED FROM A NARRATION: "The following signs are ascribed to Ali in the coming of Dajjal (The Dark Messiah or The Beast) end of time:

"Dajjal will say to his followers, "If I kill this person and then revive him, you people will still doubt me?"

They will reply, "No."

He will then kill this person, (according to another narration he will split this person in two) and thereafter revive him. This person will say, "I am totally convinced more than ever before that you definitely are Dajjal."

Dajjal will attempt to kill this person again but his efforts will now be in vain.

(According to a hadith (i.e sayings of Prophet Muhammad -MPUH), after this incident, Dajjal will not be able to harm anyone.)"

"Please note that I do not personally endorse or validate any of these views. These are just some of the vast cutting edge information (knowledge) out there, many of which are likely to upset and transform traditional views about everything...."

POINT 11: Noted but we have different standpoints on this topic covering LIFE & DEATH (MORTALITY & IMMORTALITY) = EXISTENCE OF GOD & POWER OF GOD = DESTINY OF MANKIND = GOOD RELIGION = MORALITY & PEACE OF MIND!

Edited by - kobo on 11 Apr 2014 21:37:29
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kayjatta



2974 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2014 :  09:08:07  Show Profile Send kayjatta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kobo, I wasn't particularly refering to an autopsy. I was refering to the actual determination of death-whether an organism (a person)is dead or alive. Death used to be consiederd to have occurred when the heart stops beating or breathing stops. The determination of death has become more complicated now often requiring medical expertise. Consider the case of Terri Schiavo and Jani McMath.
At this moment, medical intervention is not able to prevent death indefinitely, but it is able to prevent it for an extended period of time in varying degrees. But you are not just talking about the present, you are also talking about the future. Remember the first airplane only flew a few meters :). And consider if its possible to archieve the reverse of a little known medical condition called progeria where the aging process can be slowed down indefinitely?

I mean when viruses are outside a host, they are like a piece of rock-they don't even have a complete DNA but are capable of springing into life immediately upon entering a host. At this microscopic level, KOBO, the question of life and death is not in black and white....

I know the scriptures may have talked about eternal life and that death is possible only because of sin. No that's not my argument though.
I would rather introduce quantum mechanics just for fun (and perhaps more to provoke your thoughts KOBO)because Heizenberg said that in order to be a philosopher, you must first be physicist :). In the wave-particle duality, matter (everything we know of, you and I) exists both as a particle and as a wave. And so is the case then that Scroedinger's cat is actually dead and alive at the same time.
So is there a chance, even remotely, that we may actually be dead and alive at the same time KOBO :)?
I'll see you guys in 2015, I don't wanna offend Momodou by spending too much time here :)
By the way, what's that snake doing in that place? Are you implying that we turn into a snake after we die :)?



Edited by - kayjatta on 10 Apr 2014 09:10:24
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Momodou



Denmark
9002 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2014 :  12:31:15  Show Profile Send Momodou a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
I'll see you guys in 2015, I don't wanna offend Momodou by spending too much time here :)
By the way, what's that snake doing in that place? Are you implying that we turn into a snake after we die :)?

Just keep on Kay. I enjoy your scientific arguments. I also wonder what the snake is doing in the grave. Perhaps those afraid of snakes should should consider being cremated.

A clear concience fears no accusation - proverb from Sierra Leone
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toubab1020



9474 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2014 :  01:59:40  Show Profile Send toubab1020 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cremation saves space for sure,but there is something tangible. in visiting a grave where someone's bones are for certain,unfortunatly in Gambia there are many unmarked graves those interred therin are known only to family and friends.
It's all a bit morbid to discuss,but it does help to bring old posters out of the woodwork and let them have a good talk on the bantaba in cyberspace



quote:
Originally posted by Momodou

quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
I'll see you guys in 2015, I don't wanna offend Momodou by spending too much time here :)
By the way, what's that snake doing in that place? Are you implying that we turn into a snake after we die :)?

Just keep on Kay. I enjoy your scientific arguments. I also wonder what the snake is doing in the grave. Perhaps those afraid of snakes should should consider being cremated.


"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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kobo



United Kingdom
7765 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2014 :  10:42:16  Show Profile Send kobo a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Edited by - kobo on 11 Apr 2014 21:39:00
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toubab1020



9474 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2014 :  02:37:30  Show Profile Send toubab1020 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks KOBO, an excellent find and very very true,FOOTBALL OR BOXING ANYONE ?



quote:
Originally posted by kobo




"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.

Edited by - toubab1020 on 12 Apr 2014 02:38:40
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kobo



United Kingdom
7765 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2014 :  07:42:15  Show Profile Send kobo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
WHERE IS LIFE & DEATH COMING FROM

SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST, WAR, BARBARISM & GENOCIDE

Rwanda- The killing of more than 800,000 people in 100 days


IS GOD RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL DEATHS?

IF DISEASE, WAR & KILLINGS ERADICATED CAN MANKIND BE IMMORTALS

Edited by - kobo on 13 Apr 2014 09:40:35
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toubab1020



9474 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2014 :  01:44:09  Show Profile Send toubab1020 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Correct words from a child in the painful picture above ,adults should take note.

"Ok so I know that the whole quote of this means children are innocent and speak the truth"

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100211155909AAGOtKH

"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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kayjatta



2974 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2014 :  10:37:05  Show Profile Send kayjatta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kobo: Please understand that I am not trying to debunk your claims totally. I know you have raised some valid points about an issue that concerns all of us. But I wanted you to think more broadly about what is possible, not just what you know or believe today.
To conclude, I will leave you with these two references. Both are pretty easy to understand and are from a credible news media, NPR. I could not find a better illustration for a lay person...
Thanks again for the engagement!

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/19/148296627/blurring-the-line-between-life-and-death

http://watchdocumentary.org/watch/can-we-live-forever-video_a1fce9720.html

Edited by - kayjatta on 14 Apr 2014 10:38:58
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