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Momodou
Denmark
11508 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jun 2021 : 15:17:25
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GAMBIA-L Digest 56
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: INTRODUCTION TO GAMBIA-L@U.WASHINGTON.EDU
by binta@iuj.ac.jp
2) Re:Polygamy, domestic violence etc.
by binta@iuj.ac.jp
3) Lamin's last post re: Polygamy etc.
by Greg Fegan <gfegan@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu>
4) Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
by Abdou Gibba <Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no>
5) When The Cock Crows
by "Matarr M. Jeng." <mmjeng@image.dk>
6) Government Ministry Address
by "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
7) foday musa suso
by Andrea Klumpp <klumpp@kar.dec.com>
8) Re: foday musa suso
by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
9) New member
by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
10) Re: Government Ministry Address
by "Heidi Skramstad" <heidis@amadeus.cmi.no>
11) Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
12) Re: Government Ministry Address
by "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
13) Re: When The Cock Crows
by binta@iuj.ac.jp
14) Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
by Abdou Gibba <Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no>
15) Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
by Abdou Gibba <Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no>
16) THE TROUBLE MAKERS
by BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH <KOLLS567@QATAR.NET.QA>
17) Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
by "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
18) Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
by Isatou Bojang <isatoub@student.umass.edu>
19) Re: foday musa suso -Reply
by Ndey Drammeh <NDRAMME@wpo.it.luc.edu>
20) Re: INTRODUCTION TO GAMBIA-L@U.WASHINGTON.EDU
by umjawara@cc.UManitoba.CA
21) Really good ones !!!! (fwd)
by "Fatou N'Jie" <gs01fnn@panther.Gsu.EDU>
22) Re: Government Ministry Address
by Mostafa Jersey Marong <mbmarong@students.wisc.edu>
23) Re: Leading by involvement
by KTouray@aol.com
24) Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
by "PA-MAMBUNA O. BOJANG" <paomar@iglou.com>
25) Self Introduction
by iscorr@total.net (Ebrima Sama Corr)
26) Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
by MJagana@aol.com
27) Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
by Abdou Gibba <Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no>
28) HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY
by Abdou Gibba <Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no>
29) Re: foday musa suso -Reply
by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
30) (Fwd): Mail from Asbjcrn Nordam
by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
31) Re: HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY
by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
32) Re: HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY
by binta@iuj.ac.jp
33) Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
by "Inqs." <nfaal@is2.dal.ca>
34)
by MKCORRA@VM.SC.EDU
35) Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
by Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net>
36) Comments on Postings
by ademba@gardner-webb.edu (Alasana Demba)
37) Re: New member
by "E.Semega-Janneh" <E.Semega-Janneh@law.hull.ac.uk>
38) Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
by Isatou Bojang <isatoub@student.umass.edu>
39) RE: THE TROUBLE MAKERS
by alfall@papl.com
40) "RESIGN IMMEDIATELY, PRESIDENT JAMMEH"-Ousainou Darboe
by Yama Darboe <mdarbo01@shepherd.wvnet.edu>
41) Re: Isatou, I disagree!
by Ndey Drammeh <NDRAMME@wpo.it.luc.edu>
42) Happy Independance
by Jkrubally@aol.com
43) NEW MEMBER
by MJagana@aol.com
44) Re: Happy Independance
by Jamangen@aol.com
45) Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
by "PA-MAMBUNA O. BOJANG" <paomar@iglou.com>
46) New member
by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
47) a booklet on FGM
by =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Nordam?= <asbjorn.nordam@dif.dk>
48) Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
by Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net>
49) RE: THE TROUBLE MAKERS
by Bayard Lyons <blyons@aed.aed.org>
50) RE: THE TROUBLE MAKERS
by Amadou Scattred Janneh <AJANNEH@pstcc.cc.tn.us>
51) RE: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
by Ceesay Soffie <Ceesay_Soffie@ems.prc.com>
52) RE: THE TROUBLE MAKERS
by Ceesay Soffie <Ceesay_Soffie@ems.prc.com>
53) Re: Ndey, I agree, but disagree!
by Isatou Bojang <isatoub@student.umass.edu>
54) Re: "RESIGN IMMEDIATELY, PRESIDENT JAMMEH"-Ousainou Darboe
by "M'BAI OF" <O.F.M'Bai@icsl.ac.uk>
55) RE: THE TROUBLE MAKERS
by Bayard Lyons <blyons@aed.aed.org>
56) Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
by Bayard Lyons <blyons@aed.aed.org>
57) Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
by sarian@osmosys.incog.com (Sarian Loum)
58) New member
by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
59) New Member
by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
60) BASSS -- WHERE IS PART 2 OF "P IN AFRICA"
by "SISSOHO EM" <E.M.Sissoho@icsl.ac.uk>
61) Re: Ndey, I agree, but disagree! -Reply
by Ndey Drammeh <NDRAMME@wpo.it.luc.edu>
62) Re: BASSS -- WHERE IS PART 2 OF "P IN AFRICA"
by BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH <KOLLS567@QATAR.NET.QA>
63) Re: Exporting Wives from home!
by Ndey Drammeh <NDRAMME@wpo.it.luc.edu>
64) News story forward
by "A. Loum" <tloum@u.washington.edu>
65) Re: News story forward
by binta@iuj.ac.jp
66) Vice-Presidency Issue
by Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net>
67) Re: Vice-Presidency Issue
by ASJanneh@aol.com
68) comment on domistic violence
by =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Nordam?= <asbjorn.nordam@dif.dk>
69) Re: New Memeber
by J GAYE <J.Gaye@Bradford.ac.uk>
70) New members
by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
71) RE: Exporting Wives from home!
by Ceesay Soffie <Ceesay_Soffie@ems.prc.com>
72) GPDM address
by "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
73) ? polygamy
by =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Nordam?= <asbjorn.nordam@dif.dk>
74) Re: GPDM address
by ASJanneh@aol.com
75) Re: ? polygamy
by sarian@osmosys.incog.com (Sarian Loum)
76) New members
by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
77) RE: Exporting Wives from home!
by "NJIE OMAR E" <964NJIE@alpha.nlu.edu>
78) Re: ? polygamy
by "NJIE OMAR E" <964NJIE@alpha.nlu.edu>
79) Re: Ndey, I agree, but disagree!
by "N'Deye Marie Njie" <njie.1@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>
80) Graduate Assistantship Announcements (fwd)
by "N'Deye Marie Njie" <njie.1@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>
81) Re: ? polygamy
by BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH <KOLLS567@QATAR.NET.QA>
82) DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND ISLAM, CULTURE
by MJagana@aol.com
83) "When the Military Rules"
by ASJanneh@aol.com
84) Re: Domestic Violence, Polygamy...etc.
by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
85) Family Reunion
by Tamsir Mbai <mba4224@etbu.edu>
86) Re: Vice-Presidency Issue
by "M'BAI OF" <O.F.M'Bai@icsl.ac.uk>
87) Welcome to the Bantaba
by Omar Gaye d3a <omar3@afrodite.hibu.no>
88) Re: Domestic Violence, Polygamy...etc.
by "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
89) RE: Domestic Violence, Polygamy...etc.
by Ceesay Soffie <Ceesay_Soffie@ems.prc.com>
90) Re: ? polygamy
by "N.JARJU" <CD6C6JNJ@swansea.ac.uk>
91) Re: Domestic Violence, Polygamy...etc.
by "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
92) GPDM address (fwd)
by "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
93) Re: "When the Military Rules"
by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
94) Jammeh's Cabinet Delay
by "Dr. S. G. Kamara" <73244.2701@CompuServe.COM>
95) Re: "When the Military Rules"
by "NJIE OMAR E" <964NJIE@alpha.nlu.edu>
96) Re: Jammeh's Cabinet Delay
by "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
97) Vice Presidency Issue
by MKCORRA@VM.SC.EDU
98) Halifa's Letter to President Jammeh on 31 January, 1997
by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
99) Re: The Gambia
by Raymond Trapp <rayt@digital.net>
100) Re: foday musa suso -Reply -Reply
by Ndey Drammeh <NDRAMME@wpo.it.luc.edu>
101) New Member
by ABALM@aol.com
102) Re: Domestic Violence, Polygamy...etc.
by umjawara@cc.UManitoba.CA
103) Re: "When the Military Rules"
by binta@iuj.ac.jp
104) Re: Vice Presidency Issue
by Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net>
105) career opportunity
by MAKE THAT VISION A REALITY <ABARROW@rr5.rr.intel.com>
106) Re: domestic violence, polygamy
by Cherno Waka Jagne <C_JAGNE@tuna.stmarys.ca>
107) Re: domestic violence, polygamy
by binta@iuj.ac.jp
108) Re: Introductory Note.
by AISHA CAMARA <Camara@cardiff.ac.uk>
109) a lightheade comment on the poly-situatrion
by "Per E. Grotnes" <perg@nfh.uit.no>
110) New Member
by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
111) Forwarded mail.... (fwd)
by "Fatou N'Jie" <gs01fnn@panther.Gsu.EDU>
112) NEW MEMBER
by MJagana@aol.com
113) Thermodynamics and Life (fwd)
by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
114) Re: Forwarded Mail.....(fwd)
by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
115) Re: Alieu Jawara's message
by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 17:11:11 JST +900
From: binta@iuj.ac.jp
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: INTRODUCTION TO GAMBIA-L@U.WASHINGTON.EDU
Message-ID: <199702160806.RAA06501@mlsv.iuj.ac.jp>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Welcome Musa Sohna. I hope you will share your views with us.
Lamin Drammeh
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 17:55:44 JST +900
From: binta@iuj.ac.jp
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re:Polygamy, domestic violence etc.
Message-ID: <199702160851.RAA06759@mlsv.iuj.ac.jp>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Gambia-l,
I am sure we are not really drawing any high positive correlation
between polygamy and domestic violence. At least we know that one
can, and does, exist without the other. A member raised some
interesting points about polygamy in our societies, and I do agree with
most of his concerns. But let me share a little note with some of you:
About 7 months ago, a notice appeared in one of the Dailies
here in Japan. There is this local farming village willing
to offer Y500,000 to any family in that community which
brought forth to this world a third child! This sum is
equivalent to $5000 or 50000 Dalasis! The comunity's offer
was motivated by what they see as the reduction in farm-hands
in the near future. In the next publication of the Daily,
this offer came under intense attack, especially from the
Western readers! I am not sure how many Japanese families will
respond positively to this clarion call... Perhaps none!
The total fertility rate in Japan is around 1.4 with the
population barely replacing itself. People were not
enthusiastic about this offer not because they do not want a
third child, but because the economic cost of having one far
outweighs this $5000 offer!
And so what is the logic? What is there to learn from this? Japan,
like many other mature economies, but even more, is a very expensive
society. A present wealth of $5000 will eventually translate into
untold costs--education, health etc. Although still subject to more
empirical tests, there is enough evidence that family sizes are
highly inversely correlated with economic advancement. The huge
family sizes evident in most of our countries will eventualy give way
to smaller ones amid faster economic progress. Of course it is true
that polygamy and huge families are related, but the two are not the
same. Imagine that every Gambian woman is likely to give birth to
about 6 children during her reproductive lifespan! There are
polygamous families with fewer children and monogamous families with
many more. And we continue to feel the inevitable woes of a big
family, we may start to change.
The problem lies with our view about life, and that is where lies the
seed for change. With the increasing cost of education and health,
not to talk about the growing awareness and high competition, we
expect a shift in views toward smaller and more well-cared for
families. But unless we can move away from a rudimentary agrarian
culture to a more manufacturing and service oriented one, where the
availability of jobs and other self-dependent opportuinites for women
exist, polygamy may stay with us for a little longer.
When it comes to domestic violence, we need to look within our inner
minds for solutions. Violence is a human trait which needs to be
tamed through education and greater self-understanding. Being
responsive to the feelings of others is a good starting point. But
as Ndey Drammeh pointed out, domestic violence and polygamy are not
so inextricably linked as some of us may believe. Evidence abound.
Legislating against such an act may be a good idea but only when we
do realise that violence cannot be an appropriate means to most ends--
by no means a solution to domestic squabbles.
The picture is more complex and the debate on these issues is far from
over.
(To be continued)
Lamin Drammeh.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:11:24 -0600
From: Greg Fegan <gfegan@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Lamin's last post re: Polygamy etc.
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970216151124.00698720@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear All,
IMO Lamin in his last post raised some very good issues in regards to
population growth etc. The Gambia, if I remember the demography correctly,
is the fourth most densely populated country in Africa. A total fertility
rate (TFR) of 2.1-2.2 ensures replacement leading to a stable population.
The TFR for The Gambia is above 6 leaading to the inevitable conclusion that
population growth within The Gambia is still very high. IMO this has to be
a major restriction on development due to the requirement that just to stand
still, in terms of per capita income, the economy will have to roughly
triple in size during each generation.
I would like to know from the list what the present administration's policy
is toward family planning and reproductive health. It strikes me that
unless the problem of population growth is seriously addressed then the kind
of developments we all wish to see for The Gambia will not be possible. As
we all know larger populations require more food which means more firewood
and thus more desertification. There is a great time series of aerial views
of the progress of desertification in the Sene-Gambia region in the Gambia
National Museum in Banjul.
Regards
Greg
------------------------------------------------------------------------
TCS Liasion Officer (on leave until March 4th 1997 whilst doing comps)
Tulane School Of Public Health & Tropical Medicine
Tel(504) 584 1759
Email: gfegan@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu
WWW:http://studentweb.tulane.edu/~gfegan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:39:37 +0000
From: Abdou Gibba <Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19970217093906.26d72a6a@alfred.uib.no>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 21:38 14.02.97 -0600, Ndey Kumba wrote:
>Now back to the topic under discussion. Correct me if I am wrong, but I
>believe it was Abdou Gibba who asked the question whether polygamy
>and domestic violence are two sides of the same coin or something
>along those lines. I believe that to say that polygamy and domestic
>violence are not two sides is incorrect for a number of reasons. First of
>all, you have domestic violence in the "western world " where polygamy
>is supposedly illegal. Second of all, in cultures where polygamy is
>practiced, you have violence against women in monogamous as well as
>polygamous relations. However, I must add that polygamy may in some
>instances exacerbate the problem of domestic violence.
NDEY, I am not sure if you misunderstood what I stated or you are just
treating the question generally when you stated < I believe that to say that
polygamy and domestic violence are not two sides is incorrect for a number
of reasons." > In any case, I think we are both saying the same thing. I
wrote: < Since we are dealing with marital problems, allow me to grab this
opportunity to provoke discussions on another, or an issue of the same
category, POLYGAMY. Isn't polygamy the other side of the same coin? > I
further went on by treating polygamy and domestic violence as inseparable
concepts taking the Gambian case in context. Thus I wrote: < Most of us have
bitter experiences from the polygamous family types with numerous problems
such as competition within the 2/3 wives and their respective children
leading to "enmity", unfair treatment of 1 or 2 of the wives, personal
economic problems that leads to public funds embezzlement and etc. Do we
(men) accept this as a problem to be dealt with? Women undergo, though not
necessarily physical, but psychological harassment that sometimes could be
even more torturing than physical harassment. Poor our mothers, they have to
bear the pain and stick to the marriage for "THE SAKE OF THE CHILDREN".
While the father is "unstable" (having to "ayeh" here and there, now and
then), most of the said children don't even learn to know their fathers or
vice versa. Is our generation going to repeat the same mistakes by
justifying the practice as our culture/religion? >
MAMADI, I must commend you on the courageous way you treated this subject. I
wouldn't do so differently. Once again, In my opinion, the only solution to
any existing problem is firstly identifying the problem which also entails
acknowledging it's existence. Deal with what is, without leaving a single
word out regardless how tough ones words may sound is the ultimate means of
problem solution. With such an attitude, so many standing problems in our
society could be dealt with appropriately. It is true that "masslaa" is a
central part of our culture but it would be more valuable when it is
utilized under positive effects. Every one of us knows how negative some
effects of "masslaa" could be. Keep up your courage, MAMADI. MALANDING
wrote: < Cool it! cool it Mamadi. I hope you are not a little bit harse on
the system? > Well MALANDING, I don't think so. Maybe it's the system that
is a bit harsh and to correct any harsh problem, harsh actions has to be
taken. Don't you agree?
***************************************************************
* SI JAMMA!! KAIRABA KONOH!! DI MASUMEH!!..... IN PEACE!! *
* ::)))Abdou Oujimai *
* ------------------------------------------------------- *
* Centre for studies of Environment and Resources *
* University of Bergen *
* Bergen High-Tech. Centre Ltd. *
* N-5020 BERGEN *
* *
* Tel: +47 55584214 Fax: +47 55589687 *
* Email: Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no *
***************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:41:51 +-100
From: "Matarr M. Jeng." <mmjeng@image.dk>
To: "'The Gambia And Related Issues Mailing List'"
<gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: When The Cock Crows
Message-ID: <01BC1CC7.A713E5E0@globip131.image.dk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
When the cock Crows
When the cock crows
early in the morning
I think of you, my country
when the sun rises
I see the sky shining
I hear the birds singing
I feel the winds moving
when the cock crows
early in the morning
noises from the compound arise
the women go feching water
preparing the baths
pounding the rice for breakfast
the men lead the morning prayers
then all say salamalekum
as custom and traditional bid
when the cock crows
early in the morning
I think of you, my country.
When the sun is hot
in the middle of the day
people are walking and working
sweating and burning
chewing and spitting
eating and drinking
quarrelling and joking
when the sun is hot
in the middle of the day
I think of you, my country
When the sun goes down
colouring the sky
women back from work
in the rice fields
prepare bennachine or chou
and men back from work
in the groundnuts farms
enjoy the family gathering
when the sun goes down
colouring the sky
I think of you, my country
When the moon and stars are out
in the black velvet sky
women in coloured dresses
some carrying babies on their backs
sing with their golden voices
dance to the men `s beating of the drums
some are filling the bantabas
some the open-air cinemas
and some men and women
young and old, boys and girls
are gathering in jokes and games
stories and tales
brewing and stirring the green tea
When the moon and stars are out
in the black velvet sky
when the moon shines on the sea
and the stars sparkle like diamonds
in the black velvet sky
when the moon and stars shine
on the white sanded beach
I think of you, my country.
Matarr M. Jeng.
April, 1977
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:21:51 -0500
From: "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Government Ministry Address
Message-ID: <199702171321.IAA03373@spruce.ffr.mtu.edu>
Can someone help me with the full address of the office of the Permanent Secretary, Personel Management Office, Gambia.
Thanks you.
Malanding Jaiteh
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:37:37 +0100
From: Andrea Klumpp <klumpp@kar.dec.com>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: foday musa suso
Message-ID: <33084301.1447@kar.dec.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi,
who knows Foday Musa Suso from The Gambia (CDs?)? He is the founder of
the Mandingo Griot Society in the States. I was fascinated by the
synthie-kora sound but couldn't find more in Germany than just one track
on a sampler. Is he/are they active, popular, known at all???
Thank you!
Andrea
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 15:16:32 +0000
From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: foday musa suso
Message-ID: <19970217141448.AAB24796@LOCALNAME>
On 17 Feb 97 at 12:37, Andrea Klumpp wrote:
> Hi,
>
> who knows Foday Musa Suso from The Gambia (CDs?)? He is the founder
> of the Mandingo Griot Society in the States. I was fascinated by the
> synthie-kora sound but couldn't find more in Germany than just one
> track on a sampler. Is he/are they active, popular, known at all???
>
> Thank you!
>
> Andrea
Foday Musa Suso is still active as far as I know and used to live in
Chicago. I had both his previous address and phone number and had
been trying to locate him again in vain.
I am interested in getting in touch with him if anyone on the list
knows his phone number or address.
Regards
Momodou Camara
*******************************************************
http://home3.inet.tele.dk/mcamara
**"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's
possible and suddenly you are doing the impossible"***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 15:19:40 +0000
From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: New member
Message-ID: <19970217141756.AAA21336@LOCALNAME>
Gambia-l,
E Semega Janneh has been added to the list and as a custom, we
expect to have an introduction from him. Welcome to the Gambia-l
Mr Janneh, please send an introduction of yourself to the list.
Best regards
Momodou Camara
*******************************************************
http://home3.inet.tele.dk/mcamara
**"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's
possible and suddenly you are doing the impossible"***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 15:40:02 GMT+1
From: "Heidi Skramstad" <heidis@amadeus.cmi.no>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Government Ministry Address
Message-ID: <276FF004710@amadeus.cmi.no>
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The address is just:
PMO
The Quadrangle
Banjul
The Gambia
Heidi Skramstad
> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:21:51 -0500
> Reply-to: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
> From: "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
> To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Government Ministry Address
> Can someone help me with the full address of the office of the Permanent Secretary, Personel Management Office, Gambia.
>
> Thanks you.
>
> Malanding Jaiteh
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 10:07:43 -0500 (EST)
From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
Message-ID: <9702171507.AA50184@st6000.sct.edu>
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Abdou Gibba, you wrote:
> MAMADI, I must commend you on the courageous way you treated this subject. I
> wouldn't do so differently. Once again, In my opinion, the only solution to
> any existing problem is firstly identifying the problem which also entails
> acknowledging it's existence. Deal with what is, without leaving a single
> word out regardless how tough ones words may sound is the ultimate means of
> problem solution. With such an attitude, so many standing problems in our
> society could be dealt with appropriately. It is true that "masslaa" is a
> central part of our culture but it would be more valuable when it is
> utilized under positive effects. Every one of us knows how negative some
> effects of "masslaa" could be. Keep up your courage, MAMADI. MALANDING
> wrote: < Cool it! cool it Mamadi. I hope you are not a little bit harse on
> the system? > Well MALANDING, I don't think so. Maybe it's the system that
> is a bit harsh and to correct any harsh problem, harsh actions has to be
> taken. Don't you agree?
Abdou Gibba & Mamadi, with all due respect, I think that Malanding is
quite right in that you are being too harsh with this system. I think the
main issue here is not polygamy, as you have lead some of us to believe,
but the real issue is "Population Control". As sensitve an issue as it may
be to the African, we all know why it is never addressed by our
governments. The politicians do not address this issue mainly because it
challenges the growth of an individual's tribe, which deprives parents of
the hands needed to till the land and care for the elderly tomorrow. We
are failing to acknowledge the fact that Africa's gravest threat today is
that its growth rate is more rapid that any continent in the world. By
asserting this blame on Polygamy alone, you are denouncing religious and
traditional beliefs that have belonged to us for generations. Until
governments stop considering birth control as a plot to depopulate the
third world countries, a family's standard of living (both polygamous and
monogamous), along with its security and health will not improve. And
until, the governments can persuade us that, just like the developed
world, population control follows improved economic conditions, we will
continue to have more children.
If you wish to kill a tree, don't just cut off a few branches. You will be
better off cutting the stem.
Regards,
Moe S. Jallow
==============================================================================
mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 10:27:50 -0500
From: "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Government Ministry Address
Message-ID: <199702171527.KAA03387@spruce.ffr.mtu.edu>
Thank You Heidi.
Malanding
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 02:02:08 JST +900
From: binta@iuj.ac.jp
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: When The Cock Crows
Message-ID: <199702171656.BAA23009@mlsv.iuj.ac.jp>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Matarr,
I am no great fan of poetry, but I love this one.
Lamin.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:30:50 +0000
From: Abdou Gibba <Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19970217203019.192f5640@alfred.uib.no>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:07 17.02.97 -0500, Moe S. Jallow wrote:
>Abdou Gibba & Mamadi, with all due respect, I think that Malanding is
>quite right in that you are being too harsh with this system. I think the
>main issue here is not polygamy, as you have lead some of us to believe,
>but the real issue is "Population Control".
MOE, I don't think you are looking into the corelations here. When I chosed
to corelate domestic violence and polygamy in our society I did so because,
as I said, I can't find myself dealing with the problem of domestic in our
society without touching that of polygamy. I have already sited some exaples
of the consequencies of polygamy and you have yet come with another one -
"population controll". I think you fail to see the connection here. Polygamy
is one of the most crucial contributors to high population growth. That's
why you can't deal with population growth in Africa without going into
polygamy. Governments have an important role in population control, policy
wise, likewise the general public's average behavoir.
Finally, I can't see why we can't discuss POLYGAMY if we could discuss F
Genital Mutilation
As sensitve an issue as it may
>be to the African, we all know why it is never addressed by our
>governments. The politicians do not address this issue mainly because it
>challenges the growth of an individual's tribe, which deprives parents of
>the hands needed to till the land and care for the elderly tomorrow. We
>are failing to acknowledge the fact that Africa's gravest threat today is
>that its growth rate is more rapid that any continent in the world. By
>asserting this blame on Polygamy alone, you are denouncing religious and
>traditional beliefs that have belonged to us for generations. Until
>governments stop considering birth control as a plot to depopulate the
>third world countries, a family's standard of living (both polygamous and
>monogamous), along with its security and health will not improve. And
>until, the governments can persuade us that, just like the developed
>world, population control follows improved economic conditions, we will
>continue to have more children.
>
>If you wish to kill a tree, don't just cut off a few branches. You will be
>better off cutting the stem.
>
>
>Regards,
>Moe S. Jallow
>==============================================================================
> mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>
>
>
>
***************************************************************
* SI JAMMA!! KAIRABA KONOH!! DI MASUMEH!!..... IN PEACE!! *
* ::)))Abdou Oujimai *
* ------------------------------------------------------- *
* Centre for studies of Environment and Resources *
* University of Bergen *
* Bergen High-Tech. Centre Ltd. *
* N-5020 BERGEN *
* *
* Tel: +47 55584214 Fax: +47 55589687 *
* Email: Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no *
***************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:50:53 +0000
From: Abdou Gibba <Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19970217205021.192f8912@alfred.uib.no>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:07 17.02.97 -0500, Moe S. Jallow wrote:
>Abdou Gibba & Mamadi, with all due respect, I think that Malanding is
>quite right in that you are being too harsh with this system. I think the
>main issue here is not polygamy, as you have lead some of us to believe,
>but the real issue is "Population Control".
MOE, I don't think you are looking into the correlations here. When I choose
to correlate domestic violence and polygamy in our society I did so because,
as I said, I can't find myself dealing with the problem of domestic violence
in our society without touching that of polygamy. I have already sited some
examples of the consequences of polygamy and you did, yet, come with another
one - "population control". I think you fail to see the connection here.
Polygamy is one of the contributors to high population growth in Africa.
That's why you can't deal with the problem of population growth in the case
of Africa without going into polygamy. Governments have an important role in
population control, policy wise, likewise the general public's average
behavior.
Finally, I can't see why we can't discuss POLYGAMY if we could discuss
FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION. After all, they are all part of our culture. I do
appreciate the delicacy of all subjects though, and the need to treat them
as such. But it got to start some where. Say within ourselves, we who seem
to "understand" the concept "population growth".
***************************************************************
* SI JAMMA!! KAIRABA KONOH!! DI MASUMEH!!..... IN PEACE!! *
* ::)))Abdou Oujimai *
* ------------------------------------------------------- *
* Centre for studies of Environment and Resources *
* University of Bergen *
* Bergen High-Tech. Centre Ltd. *
* N-5020 BERGEN *
* *
* Tel: +47 55584214 Fax: +47 55589687 *
* Email: Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no *
***************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 22:50:21 +0300
From: BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH <KOLLS567@QATAR.NET.QA>
To: GAMBIA-L@U.WASHINGTON.EDU
Subject: THE TROUBLE MAKERS
Message-ID: <3126317D.A85@QATAR.NET.QA>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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ANDREA!!
Islam holds the view that the husband is the captain of the
'ship'
called MARRIAGE,and as a result,he is expected to discipline her if she
fails in her marital responsibilities either as a wife or as a
mother.Now,the various steps that the Kuran suggests to be followed when
there is a conflict do not include corporal punishment.The
first step is for the Husband to discuss with her and try to explain why
he thinks that a certain action is wrong.And if that doesn't work,the
next step is to
temporary desert her,which means to still be with her in the same house
but not to sleep with her in the same room or bed.If this temporary
desertion has gone reasonably long enough, and the wife has not mended
her ways,then they can proceed to
the third step,namely the invitation of a referee from the wife's family
and another from the Husband's.These two referees must be people of high
integrity and must not shy away from aportioning blame where blame is
due.But in the event whereby these two people fail to reconcile the
differences between the couple,it would then be their duty to recommend
a DIVORCE.So, this in short,is what the Kuran prescribes as
far as resolution of conflict in marriage is concerned.But in the case
whereby the Husband is the one failing his marital responsibilities of
food,shelter,protection and rearing of the children,she can
first of all complain to his parents,and if that doesn't help,she and
her parents have the right to go to the Family Court to seek permanent
'desertion'(divorce);this,if they are absolutely sure he is
incorrigeable.Some Islamic Jurists maintain that the husband has the
right to slightly beat the wife if he thinks
that that would be much more effective in persuading her to mend her
ways.But that is a minority view,and there is no explicit mention of it
anywhere in the kuran,that,in addition to the fact that the=20
Prophet himself never raised his hand against any of his wives.Islamic
Jurisprudence has no legislation for a GIRLFRIEND,because
that,theoretically,does not exist.So much for Islam's view on wife
beating.
Andrea,it is well documented that precolonial Black Africa was
predominantly Matrilineal- inheritance and succession passes through the
Female and NOT the Male line,and that children,even if brought up by
their biological father,really belong to the Maternal Uncle(brother of
the mother).That is precisely why when the king of kings,BESSI,of the
Ghana empire died in 1067 he was NOT succeeded by his own son,but by his
sister's son by the name TUNKA MENIN.And almost hundred and fifty years
later,in the MALI EMPIRE,the Empire that succeeded GHANA EMPIRE,though
the famous Mandingo king,MARI JATTA was succeeded by his son,MENSA
WELI,who was later succeeded by his brother,MANSA WATI,who in turn was
succeeded by his brother,Khalifa,this latest because
he was both bloody and grossly incompetent,he was murdered and replaced
NOT by a brother this time but by the son of the Daughter of MARI
JATTA.The Constituitions of both GHANA and MALI stated that since the
king cannot be absolutely sure that his son is really his son,and since
the person succeeding the king must be the same blood as the king,it is
a better bet for the son of the king's sister to succeed him.This
principle
was observed consistently throughout the Ghana Empire,but because some
of the
Emperors in the Mali empire were converted to Islam,there was a tendency
to mix the patriarchy(succession on the male side)of Islam with the
Matriarchy of Black Africa.
The same thing applies to the Senegambian Region.For instance,when some
members=20
of the nobility entered Islam in the Senegambian Kingdom of CAYOR,the
non-Islamized
nobility was so outraged by it that some of them resorted to kidnapping
the daughters and sisters of those converted to Islam and secretly
giving them to the DAMEL,the King of Cayor so that he would give them to
the TIEDDOS,those working in the imperial palace,to marry as their
wives.These people took this desperate action simply because they very
genuinely feared that since succession to the throne followed the Female
line
of the nobility rather than the male one,it would be dangerous for the
Cayor nation to allow these women to Marry people belonging to this NEW
RELIGION in which both succession and inheritance pass through the male
line.
Matriarchy developed in Africa because it was the African women who in
antiquities
accidentally discovered that they could put some seeds in the ground,put
some water
on it and wait for a couple of months to be able to harvest the
fruits.Now,this was
amazing given the fact that it had always been thought that only the GOD
of FERTILITY
was capable of such a feat! This discovery enormously increased the
African woman's
status in the eyes of her men,who,even before this discovery,believed
that their women's capacity to create children had something to do with
the fact that they were
endowed with some of the powers of the Gods.At this stage of their
development,neither
the African man nor the woman had any idea that the men played any role
in the production of children.Now,as gardening(agriculture)developed,and
its status as a source of food for the family,as opposed to going around
hunting and picking fruits for the good part of the day,the African
woman's power as the master of the home,source of food and nourishment
for its members became more and more established.It is quite amazing
that this fact has changed very little up to this day,even after
practising the
patrarchy of Islam for 1200 years and that of christianity for 400
years.You just have to go to any village in rural Gambia of today,to
know who are the people really in charge there,the men or the women.My
cousin's wife in Stockholm claims that she's a feminist,but my
cousin(the husband) still cannot cook in the kitchen without first
seeking her permission!!!
So,now its not very difficult to put into perspective what followed
after the coming of the Trouble Makers,the ARABS and the EUROPEANS.When
they came everything of importance in the African economy belonged to
the Women,especially the LAND.In African
TRIBAL LAW,the land was sacred and it belonged to the women who tilled
it,who were also sacred,and its ownership did not change no matter what
happened,and no king would sink that low to try to confiscate the land
of the people he defeated.But apparently that was not the case with our
new friends! And that ,of course,heralded the begining of the end of the
SANCTITY of the LAND and the sanctity of the women who owned it.From=20
owning 100% of the Land,they would now,in Islam,own only one third of
it,because the two third goes to the male heirs.In christianity,their
share is slightly more,but still
far less than what had been the case before the uninvited guests
came.Now,in the old system,Women's physical weakness was balanced out by
the fact that Men considered them
as little gods and sacred,that, in addition to the fact that they were
economically more powerful than the men.So now,in addition to their
physical strenght,the new guys
have taught us that,men are morally superior to women and that wealth is
better managed in the hands of the men.All these things combined have
had,quite evidently, a devastating impact on the African woman's place
in society.
Now,every new circumstance creates its new realities.And the new reality
created by both Islam and Christianity is that all the means of power in
society are in hands of
the men and because absolute power leads inevitably to absolute abuse
and excess,the African woman,and the Senegambian woman, for that
matter,will always be at the mercy of the men as long as they have not
had equal access to the means that make men powerful in their society,
namely education,health,jobs,religion,commerce and politics.And until
that happens,all the conscience-pricking preaches and pleas to men to be
nice to them
will not amount to much.=20
REGARDS BASSSS!!
=20
--=20
SZDD=88=F0'3Af=A8=03
--=20
SZDD=88=F0'3Af=A8=03
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 15:51:20 -0500
From: "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Cc: msjaiteh@mtu.edu
Subject: Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
Message-ID: <199702172051.PAA21414@oak.ffr.mtu.edu>
Perhaps the issue of polygamy will be justly dealth with if we try and address some key questions. What are the underlying causes of polygamy in most of black Afica? Was it out of ecological necessity (ie. survival strategy) or yet another attempt for the African man to exercise his machoism over the fenmale subjects of his community?
malanding
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:25:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Isatou Bojang <isatoub@student.umass.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.970217171152.22228A-100000@emily.oit.umass.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Ndey Drammeh wrote:
> When it comes to domestic violence even though men get most of the
> blame, women also contribute to the problem. I am certainly no expert on
> this subject, but I believe that our views on domestic violence are
> shaped by the socialization process that we underwent as children.
> During this process, society makes' women believe that they have to
> subservient to men, they are supposed to get married and take care of
> their children. Some women because they want to conform to norms of
> society learn to lie to themselves. They go with the expectations of
> society to win acceptances even if it means jeopardizing there own
> happiness. They would marry for the wrong reasons and then stay in
> abusive relationships just because society frowns at divorce. These
> women would tell their husbands whatever they want to hear rather
> than being honest with them. They believe that good women are ones
> that never complain no matter what their husbands do or say to them.
> Since these women believe that they need a man to be whole, they will
> stay in awful marriages no matter what the consequences.
Yes, but who has set up this norm? Men have, so I disagree when you say
that women are also to blame for domestic violence. This issue has to do
with power and the fact is that in The Gambia (and even here), we live in
a culture that is male dominated and in which the "societal norms" are
set by men, and to their advantage. When women "marry for the wrong
reasons" or feel "that [they should] never complain no matter what their
husbands do or say to them", as you say, it is because of the cultural
norms that men have set up, not women.
We need to recognize that nothing about domestic violence is the
fault of the woman.
Isatou
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 16:25:11 -0600
From: Ndey Drammeh <NDRAMME@wpo.it.luc.edu>
To: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk, gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: foday musa suso -Reply
Message-ID: <s308868e.027@wpo.it.luc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Disposition: inline
Momodou,
I believe Foday Musa still lives in Chicago. I do not have his current
telephone number but will try to get it from friends. As soon as I have the
number, I will inform you.
Ndey Kumba
On 2/17/97, Momodou Camara wrote:
>>> Camara, Momodou <momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk> 02/17/97
09:16am >>>
Foday Musa Suso is still active as far as I know and used to live in
Chicago. I had both his previous address and phone number and had
been trying to locate him again in vain.
I am interested in getting in touch with him if anyone on the list
knows his phone number or address.
Regards
Momodou Camara
*******************************************************
http://home3.inet.tele.dk/mcamara
**"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's
possible and suddenly you are doing the impossible"***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 16:45:35 -0600 (CST)
From: umjawara@cc.UManitoba.CA
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Cc: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: INTRODUCTION TO GAMBIA-L@U.WASHINGTON.EDU
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970217164303.3530A-100000@toliman.cc.umanitoba.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hi Musa Sohna,
this is your bro, Alieu Jawara. Its nice to get in touch once again.
I'm very busy right now but I'll send you a mail soon.
Salamu Alaikum
Alieu
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 18:30:57 -0500 (EST)
From: "Fatou N'Jie" <gs01fnn@panther.Gsu.EDU>
To: "N'Della N'Jie" <ndella@iastate.edu>
Cc: Gambia-L <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Really good ones !!!! (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970217182934.9484E-100000@panther.Gsu.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
********************************************
* Fatou N'Jie *
* Decision Sciences Department *
* Georgia State University *
* *
* Email: fanjie@gsu.edu *
* http://www.gsu.edu/~gs01fnn/index.html *
********************************************
Enjoy a very good laugh.
Subject: Really good ones !!!!
A girl phoned me the other day and said .... Come on over, there's
nobody home. I went over. Nobody was home.
I could tell that my parents hated me. My bath toys were a toaster
and a radio.
My father carries around the picture of the kid who came with his
wallet.
I remember the time I was kidnapped and they sent a piece of my
finger to my father. He said he wanted more proof.
Once when I was lost..... I saw a policeman and asked him to help
me find my parents. I said to him ..... do you think we'll ever find
them? He said ... I don't know kid .... there are so many places they
can hide.
On Halloween .... the parents send their kids out looking like
me. Last year... one kid tried to rip my face off! Now its
different...when I answer the door the kids hand me candy.
My wife made me join a bridge club. I jump off next Tuesday.
I went to see my doctor. Doctor, every morning when I get up and
look in the mirror... I feel like throwing up; What's wrong with me?
He said... I don't know but your eyesight is perfect.
My psychiatrist told me I'm going crazy.I told him ..... If you
don't mind I'd like a second opinion.He said .... Alright....
you're ugly too!
When I was born the doctor took one look at my face ... turned me
over and said. Look ... twins!
I remember when I swallowed a bottle of sleeping pills. My doctor
told me to have a few drinks and get some rest.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 20:42:25 -0600
From: Mostafa Jersey Marong <mbmarong@students.wisc.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Government Ministry Address
Message-ID: <199702180246.UAA95362@audumla.students.wisc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 08:21 AM 2/17/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Can someone help me with the full address of the office of the Permanent
Secretary, Personel Management Office, Gambia.
>
>Thanks you.
>
>Malanding Jaiteh
It's
PMO,QUADRANGLE, BANJUL, FAX:223813.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 22:27:37 -0500 (EST)
From: KTouray@aol.com
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Leading by involvement
Message-ID: <970217222735_1016209687@emout12.mail.aol.com>
We have a television station,a radio station and couple of daily newspapers.
Under normal circumstances that should significantly enhanced people's
understanding of what goes around them.Well the fact is the flow of
information is at best minimal and at worst misleading,a situation that leads
to an underappreciation of efforts the leaders make on the one hand and the
inability of citizens to detect wrongdoing in a timely manner on the other
hand.I am sure there are a host of reasons responsible for this unfortunate
situation, but i'd like to focus on how we can embark on a path that would
eventually enable every citizen to be in a position to minimally understand
the issues that face them and the country at any given time.The cornerstone
of my proposal is an honest committment on the part of our leaders to
formulate and conduct gov't policy by involving the very people those
policies affect directly. To this end the gov't should actively encourage the
formation of associationsthat reflect every facet of our society. These
associations would have to be outside the purvue of gov't and to that regard
lawmakers should codify there protection from gov't interference into law
once they are formed. The associations would probably need a little bit of
govt subsidies to be sustained which the gov't could use as a leverage to
ensure that members interest are adequately represented.Once we have vibrant
grassroots based associations up and running, politicians and policy makers
would be compelled to fully explain their positions because they now have
both a forum and peoplewho would actually demand answers. I can see the
Permanent Secretary Min of health sitting in a forum sponsored by The Gambia
Nurses Association explaining why the gov't wants to boost spending on
primary health care at the village level at the expense of further training
of mid-wives. Rather than hatching the plan at headquaters , the gov't would
be making a serious effort at reachingout to the people who would be most
affected and in the process both sides would have an opportunity to exchange
ideas.The same forum would have also invited say the UDP representative who
might think the gov't is not doing nearly enough to provide healthcare . The
forum gets more views and with some luck a consensus emerges that encompasses
the merits it deserves.
Pretty soon speech making, explanations and reasoning would be seen as
crucial components for the success or failure of policy making.We would then
have become a nation that is no longer being pulled by a noose over our neck
.. Instead we will be equiped to measure and verify the performance of those
we choose to lead us and they too would enjoy our confidence and gratitude if
they do what they are charged to do. There will be no losers.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 23:02:19 -0500
From: "PA-MAMBUNA O. BOJANG" <paomar@iglou.com>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
Message-ID: <330929CB.2925@iglou.com>
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Isatou Bojang wrote:
>
> On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Ndey Drammeh wrote:
>
> > When it comes to domestic violence even though men get most of the
> > blame, women also contribute to the problem. I am certainly no expert on
> > this subject, but I believe that our views on domestic violence are
> > shaped by the socialization process that we underwent as children.
> > During this process, society makes' women believe that they have to
> > subservient to men, they are supposed to get married and take care of
> > their children. Some women because they want to conform to norms of
> > society learn to lie to themselves. They go with the expectations of
> > society to win acceptances even if it means jeopardizing there own
> > happiness. They would marry for the wrong reasons and then stay in
> > abusive relationships just because society frowns at divorce. These
> > women would tell their husbands whatever they want to hear rather
> > than being honest with them. They believe that good women are ones
> > that never complain no matter what their husbands do or say to them.
> > Since these women believe that they need a man to be whole, they will
> > stay in awful marriages no matter what the consequences.
>
> Yes, but who has set up this norm? Men have, so I disagree when you say
> that women are also to blame for domestic violence. This issue has to do
> with power and the fact is that in The Gambia (and even here), we live in
> a culture that is male dominated and in which the "societal norms" are
> set by men, and to their advantage. When women "marry for the wrong
> reasons" or feel "that [they should] never complain no matter what their
> husbands do or say to them", as you say, it is because of the cultural
> norms that men have set up, not women.
> We need to recognize that nothing about domestic violence is the
> fault of the woman.
>
> Isatou
ISATOU:
I disagree. Let us not forget too soon about the fact that we come from a
nation, The Gambia, where Islam is the predominant religion. Let us not be
deceived by what we see or hear in the west out here. Where as Islam does
not enslave women, contrary to popular opinion, it however gives the
dominant power to the man in the house hold (sort of reiterating BASS). I
believe we (both men and women on this discussion group) have to re-evaluate
and re-eventuate our positions on this issue. Do not judge me wrong; I'm in
no way demeaning women because I love my dear mother, but I do think it will
be unwise to sort of trade our religious values as a result of our mere
exposure to the western values.
Bass, bravo for a well written piece. You couldn't have written it better.
NB: MALANDING, COULD YOU PLEASE SHORTEN YOUR LINES A LITTLE BIT.
GOD BLESS!
PA-MAMBUNA, LEXINGTON.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 00:15:29 -0500 (EST)
From: iscorr@total.net (Ebrima Sama Corr)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Self Introduction
Message-ID: <v01540b00af2e9f71a0fe@[205.205.161.187]>
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Brothers/Sisters
Thank you for welcoming me at the Gambia-L. My name is Ebrima Sama Corr.
A native of the Gambia:
Mbanta Village
Upper Nuimi District
North Bank Division
And
Canadian resident:
68 Prince Arthur West
Apt. 103
Montreal, Quebec
Tel: (514) 849-5149
I am a McGill graduate and am presently pursuing a Master's degree in
Public Policy and Public Administration (MPPPA) at Concordia University,
Montreal. I have enjoyed reading subscribers' viewpoints and their
critical analysis of the issues been discussed. As a subscriber I hope to
contact many old and new friends.
There are two things I would like to know about Gambia-L. First, is there
an annual fee? This is important, we all know that nothing is free.
Second, are there regulations or guidelines to ensure the smooth running of
the forum? It is essential to have written laws which serve as a deterrent
for any member or members who might try to violate the successful
functioning of Gambia-L.
If decisions and regulations exist please, make them public. A stable
financial base and accurate well-thought out information are essential
elements in whatever we do. They cannot be ignored. My thanks to Laye and
Karafa Badjie for introducing me to the Gambia-L discussion group.
Wishing you all a happy winter break.
Unity,
Ebrima Sama Corr
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 00:18:56 -0500 (EST)
From: MJagana@aol.com
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
Message-ID: <970218001855_1611286136@emout11.mail.aol.com>
Dear Gambia L,
I just have a small contributions to give on this topic. I see very
interesting discussions in relation to Islam, rights of women, abusive men
and domestic violence.
I must say the main problem in the gambia ( mostly around the wold of Islam),
those who apply the laws ( the so called Learned), DO NOT DISTINGUISH BETWEEN
THE CULTURE ( IE TRADITION ) AND ISLAM.
I must say Islam is very protective of women, there is a hole SURAH IN THE
QURAN ( AL-NISA -WOMEN) which describe the right of a woman from marriage to
inheritance. If you guys read that surah you shall surely realise the
respeact Islam gives to women, contary to many believs.
I know that most of these believies are delevopped because of the way women
are treated (which is supported) by the traditional beleives.
For example in the gambia, if a woman has a problem with the husband and the
relation is turning abusesive. The most support she might get is " bear for
him he is your husband".
So i strongly believe we should separate what Islam lays down as a giude (in
the quran and the hadith) and what our cultures makes as belive.
I PERSONAL BELIEVE THAT WOMEN HAVE A RIGHT IN THIS WORLD, AND I AM PROUD OF
MY DAD FOR GIVING MY MUM ALL THE SUPPORT IN THIER LIFES. FOR ALLOWING HER TO
RUN HER OWN BUSINESS FOR THE PAST TWENTY YEARS. ALTHOUGH A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE
AGAINST IT WHEN SHE FIRST STARTED.
MOMODOU A M JAGANA
MJagana@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 06:59:26 +0000
From: Abdou Gibba <Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19970218075856.18b77440@alfred.uib.no>
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At 15:51 17.02.97 -0500, Malanding wrote:
>Perhaps the issue of polygamy will be justly dealth with if we try and
address some key questions. What are the underlying causes of polygamy in
most of black Afica? Was it out of ecological necessity (ie. survival
strategy) or yet another attempt for the African man to exercise his
machoism over the fenmale subjects of his community? <
THAT WOULD BE A VERY PERFECT START, MALANDING.
***************************************************************
* SI JAMMA!! KAIRABA KONOH!! DI MASUMEH!!..... IN PEACE!! *
* ::)))Abdou Oujimai *
* ------------------------------------------------------- *
* Centre for studies of Environment and Resources *
* University of Bergen *
* Bergen High-Tech. Centre Ltd. *
* N-5020 BERGEN *
* *
* Tel: +47 55584214 Fax: +47 55589687 *
* Email: Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no *
***************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:26:11 +0000
From: Abdou Gibba <Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19970218082540.18b78900@alfred.uib.no>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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FOR THE GAMBIA OUR HOMELAND
WE STRIVE AND WORK AND PRAY,
THAT ALL MAY LIVE IN UNITY,
FREEDOM AND PEACE EACH DAY.
LET JUSTICE GUIDE OUR ACTIONS
TOWARDS THE COMMON GOOD,
AND JOIN OUR DIVERSE PEOPLES
TO PROVE MAN'S BROTHERHOOD.
WE PLEDGE OUR FIRM ALLEGIANCE,
OUR PROMISE WE RENEW,
KEEP US GREAT GOD OF NATIONS,
TO THE GAMBIA EVER TRUE.
HAPPY INDEPENDENCE GAMBIA-LERS. By the way does anyone have or know the full
text of "LIGAYE JOTNA, GAMBIA AMNA BOPAAM"? I would like to have one in
preparation to our Independence Party on saturday, 22nd. Thanks in advance.
***************************************************************
* SI JAMMA!! KAIRABA KONOH!! DI MASUMEH!!..... IN PEACE!! *
* ::)))Abdou Oujimai *
* ------------------------------------------------------- *
* Centre for studies of Environment and Resources *
* University of Bergen *
* Bergen High-Tech. Centre Ltd. *
* N-5020 BERGEN *
* *
* Tel: +47 55584214 Fax: +47 55589687 *
* Email: Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no *
***************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 12:37:12 +0000
From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: foday musa suso -Reply
Message-ID: <19970218113534.AAA7418@LOCALNAME>
On 17 Feb 97 at 16:25, Ndey Drammeh wrote:
>
> Momodou,
>
> I believe Foday Musa still lives in Chicago. I do not have his
> current telephone number but will try to get it from friends. As
> soon as I have the number, I will inform you.
>
> Ndey Kumba
>
Thank you very much. I will be very glad to get his number and just
let him know that its me and I am surely be happy to give it.
Best regards
Momodou
*****************************************
Momodou Camara
Charlotte Muncksvej 20.3th
DK-2400 Copenhagen NV
Denmark
Phone/Fax (+45 35829210)
E-Mail:-mcamara@post3.tele.dk
momodou@inform-bbs.dk
URL:- http://home3.inet.tele.dk/mcamara
********************************************
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 12:37:13 +0000
From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: (Fwd): Mail from Asbjcrn Nordam
Message-ID: <19970218113534.AAB7418@LOCALNAME>
Gambia-l,
I was asked by Asbjcrn to forward this mail below which he sent
earlier as an attachment.
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From: Asbjcrn Nordam <asbjorn.nordam@dif.dk>
To: 'Momodou Camara' <momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk>
Subject:
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 10:13:38 +0100
One of you wrote:
"Our pessimist and still passive nature indicates the long way we have
to go to realize our potentials. More frustrating is the fact that the
majority of our intellectuals who are supposed to know better fall even
more into this "trap" by, as I put it earlier on, dancing to the tone
of West even though we hear the contradictions their musical
instruments play.
from all those syndromes we are suffering from, dependency, pessimism,
passivity, lack of self confidence....etc. Here is a typical Gambian
Inferiority-complex-syndrom, when one is unreliable to someone the
unreliable person is characterized as "YOW DOR TOUBAB" (you are not a
white man). Literary meaning, the white man is more reliable than the
black man"
Please, I don t think it s necessary, but all of you know, that all
children on the earth has the potential, but it s depending where you
are born, how good your chances to develop them are. Please show up
confidence. The future is in your hands. And we are some who will do
our best to help if needed. But I m not sure if it is so. As Per wrote
about fisheries the other day, the traditional fishermen in the
country know so much already. And I think it s the same with you.
Allow me to deal your frustration with you. Positively meant.
Denmark is not a "donor-country" to the Gambia, and I don t have
access to a lot of studies or information, which could be transferred
to you. But every month I can see on the news letter from our foreign
Ministry, that there are reports from danish companies in East Africa
on forestry, seed-transplantation, roads-, railways- and harbours
constructions, sanitary-programmes, solar-energy-supply-programmes for
pumps, building of transformer-stations, studies on various diseases
(measles, malaria, cholera, aids, etc), students and advisory-,
training and exchange-programmes, etc, etc. We have been
supervising in Uganda trying to build up a governmental
administration, we have transferred the ombudsman-system etc. And I m
sure Norway, Sweden, and a lots of countries has done the same, and
has a great deal of experiences. To that come all the resources put
in, and all the experiences from the very many NGO-projects. But what
will there be out of all this ? Even I know that this is established
by some because they feel they do a fine thing/job and by their heart
really want to do something, I also know that for others this is a
very smart way of keeping you depending, and we to profit.
I m not sure that we do the right thing, and the reports on danish aid
for the last 10 years is telling exactly the same. We never reach the
poorest people, and most african countries has gone "backwards" over
the last 5 years. But internationally their is now an understanding,
that for the sake of ourselves (the west - I think) we must be ensure,
that Africa is back on the trail. And I think you can do it yourself,
if we in the west just treat your fair.
There was a danish economist, who 2 weeks ago, just before the
continuing debate on the Lome-act, said that EU could decide that
Africa (south of Sahara) should be included in the EU-trade-market on
the same conditions as the member-countries. That could give the
countries a fair chance.There were other economists who said that
should be a threat, but the dane said "no", because the total GNP for
the countries south of SAHARA was not much more then the one for Spain.
So it was just like opening the market for a country-export like
Spain's. I m not an economist, so I don t know anything on this. But
to me it was some kind of a point.
Danish radio has put focus on Africa this year. They have established
a homepage and information-channel on the net, where you can find all
the "africa"- programmes both on TV and radio. And all the
"background" materials, such as interviews in full length, not cut as
in the programme, articles and news. It will be a fantastic world of
information. Momodou Camara has given some help to them and he can
tell more about it (the homepage is http://www.dr.dk/afrika/).
Because of my job I m mostly not home until late in the evenings, so
my chances of seeing and listening is not very good.
But the other day I taped a one-hour programme from TV called "Africa
- the continent which has overslept " (directly translated). Even one
has to be very careful to judge from such a film, I found it very
inspiring. There were interviews with young african businessmen,
who said that there is so much potential in Africa, both in natural
and human resources. But due to a lot of circumstances, "we lose
them". One of the men has invested in telecommunications and could
establish a network in the whole country, but his own office could not
even be served by the public telecom.-service. He had to go to the
neighbour every time he had to call. The reason was that he has decided
not to bribe. He won his case against the government, at the high
court, just to be met by a governmental decree, that he was not
allowed to set up the communication-system. But he said that now there
are so many young africans, who will come home, start to build
business and the society from the bottom, and it will only take some
years before the people at power will realize. Even being aware of the
colonial-period, the new-colonial days, the oppression and
exploitation some of the young Africans said, that "we can not
continue putting all the blame on that. That was a set-back, but now
we have to overcome it."
A great part of the film put focus on bribery and corruption, which
leads to passivity. But not only that, but also to a dramatic decline
of foreign investments in Africa as a whole over the last 5 years. And
to at the same time a dramatic increase of the total aid to Africa.
But many of these young people said that they are tired of all this
aid. "We have and we are the resources, just give us the chance to
show it". It was told, that the fastest way to become rich in an
African country, was to go into politics, and best take the
leadership. People in the streets interviewed said, "why should we
work hard to earn nothing, when our leaders over night become some of
the richest people in the world ?" And "if you will be sure of a good
income, you should be employed in public service. They can not live of
the salaries, but even so they live well, have houses, cars etc."
Where does the money come from ? One state was mentioned, where the
public servants didn t get salaries, but they all lived very well.
Another point was the rebuilding of Eritrea. The president has
thanked "no" to foreign loans, because he said, that fighting so
long time, so many years, without nearly any resources, the whole
nation suffering, we will not and need no loans to build up the
country, because that will led to dependence. We saw how very old men
from ruins transferred the old steam-trains so they could function
again. At the same time they had to teach youngsters the technic. We
were told, that all adults has to serve 16 month as workers for the
nation-building. That is an African tradition, which we in the west
has left behind: the eldest give their knowledge to the next
generation. That was also a point in Per s fisheries-project, and that
was mine, when I gave a comment on education. The young people will
have to combine studies with practical work under supervision of the
men/women who knows.
I will stop here. Just something inspired of the words from a
frustrated Gambian.
Asbjcrn Nordam
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 12:57:57 +0000
From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY
Message-ID: <19970218115619.AAA7404@LOCALNAME>
On 18 Feb 97 at 7:26, Abdou Gibba wrote:
> HAPPY INDEPENDENCE GAMBIA-LERS.
Happy independence day anniversary to you too Abdou and all
members of the Gambia-l.
Momodou Camara
*******************************************************
http://home3.inet.tele.dk/mcamara
**"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's
possible and suddenly you are doing the impossible"***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:25:09 JST +900
From: binta@iuj.ac.jp
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY
Message-ID: <199702181217.VAA06447@mlsv.iuj.ac.jp>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Abdou Gibba,
Thanks for the reminder. I, for one, would not have remembered this
day!
Lamin Drammeh.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:41:52 -0400 (AST)
From: "Inqs." <nfaal@is2.dal.ca>
To: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970218112643.166388E-100000@is2.dal.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Pa Mambuna,
> I disagree. Let us not forget too soon about the fact that we come from a
> nation, The Gambia, where Islam is the predominant religion. Let us not be
> deceived by what we see or hear in the west out here. Where as Islam does
> not enslave women, contrary to popular opinion, it however gives the
> dominant power to the man in the house hold (sort of reiterating BASS).
Islam may give dominant power to the man, but it also gives the
women rights. Why then is it that men tend to assert the former, but
downplay the latter? This is precisely Isatou's point, they are creating
a system conducive to them, that is different from the Quranic ideal, but
using the Quran to legitimise it.
> no way demeaning women because I love my dear mother,
You may not do so intentionally, but advocating male dominance is
demeaning women. Male dominance is the assertion of male rights, wishes
etc over that of women, give men the decision-making power absolutely,
especially in the home. The problem with this sort of ideology, is that
you don't think women capable of controlling their lives and contributing
to the decision-making process in a home, that in The Gambia, is centered
around them. Think about it. How would you like it if you built a house,
spent your whole life maintaining it, yet all the times you wanted to do
something with it, you had to ask someone else, who could refuse or accept
and there was nothing you could do about it? Is this house not yours?
You may share it with another, but wouldn't you like to be consulted and
have your opinions heard? Or worse still, suppose you asked, and got
beaten for doing so, or got beaten simply because you lived there?
Think about from a female perspective, place yourself in our
position and then rethink the issue of your position as a male and a
husband/ potential one.
> be unwise to sort of trade our religious values as a result of our mere
> exposure to the western values.
I think that Bass eloquently stated the position of women prior to
the arrival of the 'troublemakers', so what makes a bid for equality so
'western', they evolved the concept at a later date.
Nkoyo.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 97 13:33:29 EST
From: MKCORRA@VM.SC.EDU
To: GAMBIA-L@U.WASHINGTON.EDU
Message-ID: <199702181834.KAA26501@mx4.u.washington.edu>
The argument was made that polygamy cannot be taken as
synonymous to domestic violence; I agree. I certainly will not
say that domestic violence is "equivalent" to polygamy; I would
say, however, in the affirmative, that polygamy is a variation or
form of domestic violence. I would not claim expertise in
domestic violence; however, I believe that when experts in the
field talk of domestic violence they mean the physical and
psychological battering of an individual. Certainly, as physical
domestic violence, polygamy might not be equated with or related
to domestic violence. As a psychological, emotional, and
cognitive battery, however, polygamy is domestic violence par
excellence. The untold psychological effect it has on women, the
emotional impact on the children, and, indeed, the impact on the
family and the country, resource availability wise, is
unquestionably painful, if not violent.
Another point raised by a respondent is that the problem is
one of population control and the government's inability to
device strategies aimed at combating this problem. Now I am a
person that believes that many of our governments in Africa have
failed our people; however, I would have to defend governments in
this regard. The debate in the American political arena,
recently, has been that the government is trying to do too much
for the people; that the size of government must be reduced and
arguments are being made that the government is getting involved
too much in people's lives. I would say this is a case in point.
The government cannot be and must not be a panacea for all the
problems of its citizenry. Particularly with governments such as
ours that have limited resources. Our problem is a complicated
one; We expect the government to do things that individuals
cannot do for and by themselves. Things that individuals can do
and must do, however, cannot be relegated to the government; we
must take responsibility for some of these things. The richest
countries in the world are advocating such a direction; what can
developing countries like ours do that are short in resources but
that.
In addition, there is an argument made that our exposure
to the west should not make us abandon our religion, Islam. Not
claiming any
expertise here either; However, with the limited knowledge that I
have about Islam I believe polygamous marriage is allowed under
two crucial conditions!: Condition 1, that to validate such a
marriage the husband must be fair to the wives (quite an
undertaking and tough responsibility; it is indeed, an obligation
required by Islam). Condition 2, that the husband must have the
ability to support the multiple families resulting from such a
marriage; a point critical to my argument. Islam is certainly
clear on these points! Members on the list well versed in
Islamic teachings, please correct me if I am wrong; help me out
please! Besides, Islam does not require people to
practice polygamy; in this regard, it cannot be used as a hiding
mechanism. Islam says polygamy is ok; it is up to us to see the
damage it is doing to us. I am absolutely sure that the argument
is not, and Islam does not say, that if we do not practice
polygamy we will be punished by God or go to hell; nothing can be
further from the truth.
Population control, domestic violence, polygamy, call it
what you may; the practice is a problem in our continent and it
will not be solved by the governments. Individuals must be ready
to shift the direction and the governments will help them to do
so. Granted, literature exists that establishes that a society
must reach a particular level of social development for
relationships such as polygamy to cease; A direction, however,
towards its ceasing must be taken.
Again, I am not interested in making this a personal issue
or a personal attack. polygamy has been and is an institution in
Africa. Social institutions take the longest to change. Many of
my relatives, my father, brothers, cousins, nephews, etc., have
been in polygamous relationships and some still are. It is a
problem, never the less, that impacts all of our lives and, in my
opinion, it is a hinderance to the progress of that continent of
ours. No statement on such a system could be too harsh; for our
beloved continent is at a crucial stage, at a life and death
stage. We either take a direction toward the world scenery or
establish permanency in being the only continent disconnected
from economic and social development. We can choose to take
responsibility and move forward or be permanent laggards.
Indeed, it is a difficult task to recognize a system that one
benefits from as wrong; however, it takes a courageous person, a
strong person, one of intense resistance to see the truth even
when it affects him or her. In this regard, I commend Abdou for
bringing this important issue up and having the courage to do so.
Indeed, the scripture says, you shall know the truth and the
truth shall set you free!!!
peace
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 13:50:58 -0500
From: Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
Message-ID: <3309FA12.2D5C@earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
PA-MAMBUNA O. BOJANG wrote:
> ISATOU:
>
> I disagree. Let us not forget too soon about the fact that we come from a
> nation, The Gambia, where Islam is the predominant religion. Let us not be
> deceived by what we see or hear in the west out here. Where as Islam does
> not enslave women, contrary to popular opinion, it however gives the
> dominant power to the man in the house hold (sort of reiterating BASS). I
> believe we (both men and women on this discussion group) have to re-evaluate
> and re-eventuate our positions on this issue. Do not judge me wrong; I'm in
> no way demeaning women because I love my dear mother, but I do think it will
> be unwise to sort of trade our religious values as a result of our mere
> exposure to the western values.
You make an interesting point here but we all need to consider Isatou's
main point here.
''We need to recognize that nothing about domestic violence is the
fault of the woman.''
I think I tend to agree. While there are definite cases where the man's
abusive actions may be prompted by his wife's behavior (or misbehavior),
there is still ABSOLUTELY no excuse for that man to strike his wife. No
matter what way you look at it, it is wrong and incidents like this can
NEVER be blamed on the woman.
We have a tendency as African men to hide behind the cloak of tradition
and, as seen here, even religion but we must realize that some things
are just wrong whether our fathers did them or not.
As we evolve so should our ideas or we can never truly develop as
people. This is not a matter of adopting western principles but in my
view it is simply correcting a part of our tradition that is wrong. Let
us not forget what fueled this discussion in the first place: A Gambian
man who continuously physically abused his Gambian wife until he
allegedly killed her.
PA-MAMBUNA O. BOJANG also wrote:
> Bass, bravo for a well written piece. You couldn't have written it better.
I agree. Thank you Bass for a very informative and thought provoking
piece. You mention something that I believe can put a rather positive
twist in this entire discussion.
''Now,every new circumstance creates its new realities.And the new
reality
created by both Islam and Christianity is that all the means of power in
society are in hands of the men and because absolute power leads
inevitably to absolute abuse
and excess,the African woman,and the Senegambian woman, for that
matter,will always be at the mercy of the men as long as they have not
had equal access to the means that make men powerful in their society,
namely education,health,jobs,religion,commerce and politics.And until
that happens,all the conscience-pricking preaches and pleas to men to be
nice to them will not amount to much.''
Perhaps by looking to our own past (i.e., pre-troublemakers :-)), we can
be inspired to resolve issues such as domestic violence and the general
inequality of women in our society without looking abroad or ''adopting
Western values'' and retaining what seem to be ''eastern'' values.
Peace.
Lat
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:28:39 -0500
From: ademba@gardner-webb.edu (Alasana Demba)
To: Gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Comments on Postings
Message-ID: <330A02E7.5BDE@gardner-webb.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hi Forks,
The issues of pointing out problems in our communities should be a
concern to everyone. Mamadi had mention a vital fact which need to be
solve. However, some of us might be offended but the reality is, you
doing it does not make it right. Many of our people are just selfish
and care less about the others. If you care about how others feel, such
an act should not happen.
Coming from the Islamic point of view, there is no verse in the Quran
which promote such an arrogant act. Our elders always come with an
excuse to defend themselves but we need to make a difference. However
believed in such practices should relate it to culture and not Islam.
Pa Mambuna had mention about our values and not to follow the West.
This is not an issue of following the west, but taking the advantage of
being a humanbeing and use creative and strategic thinking to raise our
families. I suppose the reason of education is not to read and write,
but to utilized the resources around you for a better living. As I
mention before, everyone doing it doesn't make it right. Many people
are being traped because your elders are doing, don't rely on second
hand information, find it your selve. The number of educative elite we
have in the list should make a different in our community.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:45:11 +0000 (GMT)
From: "E.Semega-Janneh" <E.Semega-Janneh@law.hull.ac.uk>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: New member
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970218174138.22587B-100000@humus2.ucc.hull.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
hello,
firstly, it is a she!, i am sure it is the name that threw you off(laugh)
you can sue my dad!!!. Thanks for dealing with my request quickly i am
sure i am g oing to enjoy this network.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:54:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Isatou Bojang <isatoub@student.umass.edu>
To: gambia list <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.970218144223.10399B-100000@asimov.oit.umass.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> PA-MAMBUNA O. BOJANG wrote:
>
> > ISATOU:
> >
> > I disagree. Let us not forget too soon about the fact that we come from a
> > nation, The Gambia, where Islam is the predominant religion. Let us not be
> > deceived by what we see or hear in the west out here. Where as Islam does
> > not enslave women, contrary to popular opinion, it however gives the
> > dominant power to the man in the house hold (sort of reiterating BASS). I
> > believe we (both men and women on this discussion group) have to re-evaluate
> > and re-eventuate our positions on this issue. Do not judge me wrong; I'm in
> > no way demeaning women because I love my dear mother, but I do think it will
> > be unwise to sort of trade our religious values as a result of our mere
> > exposure to the western values.
I don't feel that by acknowledging that the power inbalance
between men and women favors the male, is in any way "trading our
religious values as a result of our mere exposure to the western
values". I have traded nothing. The
observations I made stem from the need for us to move away from
victim-blaming and towards an honest search for the roots of domestic
violence and how we can prevent it.
Isatou
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 97 15:35:21 -0500
From: alfall@papl.com
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: RE: THE TROUBLE MAKERS
Message-ID: <"4610E60B*Fall_Amadou_L/NUC_GO2//US/IBMX400/PPL"@MHS>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Bass wrote:
> (Note that this is only an excerpt of Bass' posting)
> ANDREA!!
> Islam holds the view that the husband is the captain of the
> 'ship' called MARRIAGE,and as a result,he is expected to discipline
her if she
> fails in her marital responsibilities either as a wife or as a
mother.Now,the various
> steps that the Kuran suggests to be followed when there is a conflict
do not include > corporal punishment...
I must commend you on a well written piece, that for those amongst us
that are "lacking" in African History, was a real educative moment.
Although I tend to disagree with your perpetual lambasting and blaming
of the "West", this dissertation on the role of women in African
society should certainly provide a background for our discussion on the
"Domestic Violence" and "Polygamy".
I think that we have before us a ingrained cultural and traditional
problem that is conveniently cloaked as a 'religion' based issue, as
alluded to by several of the postings. Just as religion, in this case
Catholicism, was cowardly used by the Inquisitors and the Crusaders as
the 'GOD sanctionned' basis for their activities, we as Muslims and
Africans need to see through the religious arguments for such
institutions such as POLYGAMY.
Also, are we to be perpetually tied to the notion that whatever
activity or practice that is rooted in our 'culture or traditions is
'Good and beyond challenge' ? I believe that we should always apply the
following test to such 'cultural and/or traditional' practices:
- Is it the way that I would want to be treated? (Remember that old
Axiom - Do Unto Others As You Would Have Done Unto You)
- Is it Ethical, that is morally and religiously?
Finally, I am not subscribing to the infinite wisdom of the West, for
as amply noted in the various postings by the List members, they have
their own 'skeletons in the closet' to be worried about. But that does
not mean that we should not take advantage of the 'Good' that we find
amongst their 'Values' for our own benefit.
Peace!
Amadou Fall
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:35:39 -0800
From: Yama Darboe <mdarbo01@shepherd.wvnet.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: "RESIGN IMMEDIATELY, PRESIDENT JAMMEH"-Ousainou Darboe
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19961206161640.1ef7ec16@mail.shepherd.wvnet.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The following letter, by the UDP leadership, may be stale news to some of
you, but it nonetheless shows the party's concern about the Swiss Bank Scandal.
Dear Mr President,
When the AFPRC government overthrew the civilian government on the 22nd
of July 1994, you denounced the PPP Government of "rampant corruption" and
indicriminate "abuse of power". You took great pains to promise Gambians
that that the AFPRC will establish "accountability, transparency and
probity" as part and parcel of good governance.
Accordingly the AFPRC instituted a number of high profile commissions of
enquiry to confirm and determine the extent of the "corruption" over the 30
years of PPP rule. One of these commissions was the special Commission of
Enquiry into the Assets of Public Officers especially the former members of
government. As Chairman of the AFPRC you more than anyone else made
repeated public threats that whoever was found to have emblezzed or
misappropriated any public funds "will pay back every butut". Consequently
and in rigid pursuance of that AFPRC policy, a number of former senior civil
servants and ministers have been summarily evicted from their homes after
having their various assets frozen and seized as you and your commissions
hunted down "every butut" of public funds.
It is against this climate of accountability that Gambians came across
in the international media of the ruling of of the proceedings CP/449/95 and
P/1445/95 on the trnsfers of a total of US$24.7 million from the Central
Bank of The Gambia to private accounts abroad. In the ruling given at the
Palais de Justice in Geneva on 7th October, 1996 presided over by Magistrate
Mr Vladimir Stemberger, it was established inter-alla.
1. That the manager of CREDIT LYONNAIS BANK met President Yahya Jammeh at
the State House, Banjul.
2. That the meeting was not an officail engagement, only the former AFPRC
Spokesman Ebou Jallow was present.
3. That President Yahya Jammeh told the Bank manager that he wanted to open
a private account with his bank.
4. That President Yahya Jammeh and Ebou Jallow appeared to be in "excellent"
terms during the meeting.
5. That President Yahya Jammeh gave Ebou Jallow "a general Power of
Attorney" over his(Yahya's) account.
6. That in August 1995, an amount of US$1.7 Million was paid in cash by Ebou
Jallow into Yahya's account.
7. That the sum of US$3 million cash was transferred from the Central Bank
of The Gambia into the account No. 49275 in the name of Ebou Jallow at
CREDIT LYONNAIS, Geneva.
8. That Ebou Jallow requested to withdraw the entire US$3 million, the Bank
Manager telephoned President Yahya Jammeh to confirm and President Yahya
Jammeh told the Bank that the withdrawal "was in order".
9. That President Yahya Jammeh further explained to the Bank Manager that
Ebou Jallow was withdrawing the money "to carry out some commercial
operation" in Europe.
10. That an additional amount of US$20 Million was deposited in Citibank
Switzland in the name of Ebou Jallow.
11. That the judgement on 7th October 1996 authorised the lifting of the
conservatory seizure on the account of Ebou Jallow at Credit LYONNAIS
thereby overturning the ruling of 17th October, 1995 which froze his account.
These highly irregular almost clandestine transfers of large amounts of
Dollar cash from the Central Bank of The Gambia into private Swiss accounts
is unprecedented. Given the strict guidelines, controls verification
procedures and systems entrenched not only in the General Orders and
financial Instructions, but also the Rules and Procedures governing the
Central Bank, PRESIDENT YAHYA JAMMEH HAS TO TELL THE NATION HERE AND NOW:
1. What is the source of the US$1.7 Million with which he opened his CREDIT
LYONNAIS account?
2. What is the source of the US$3 Million deposited into Ebou Jallow's
account? That the fact that the Bank Manager had to telephone President
Yahya Jammeh before cashing Ebou Jallow's cheque withdrawing the entire US$3
Million confirms that the Bank Manager was under no illusion about the REAL
owner of the account.
3. What is the source of the US$20 Million deposited in CITIBANK Swiss?
4. Why are these large sums of money kept in the Central Bank under the
control of the AFPRC members and not under the custody and control of the
Accountant General who is the custodian of the nation's funds?
In the face of what is known and is explicit over these irregularities
amounting to an ABUSE OF POWER, there is no option for President Jammeh but
to RESIGN immediately for THREE simple reasons.
1. Stepping down NOW is the only way that President Jammeh can slavage the
honour, integrity, credibility and respect for the high office of President
of the Republic.
2. Stepping down NOW will facilitate the setting up of a special
investigative panel to determine the full extent of the irregularities and
culprits reponsible for this colossal financial scandal consistent with the
AFPRC crusade of "TRANSPARENCY ACCOUNTABILITY AND PROBITY".
3. Stepping down NOW will facilitate the application in full extent of any
penalties that the investigative panel may see appropriate.
In conclusion, this horrendous scandal has not only denied this poor
country of the funds equivalent to the nation's development estimate for
the fiscal year 1995/96 but is damaging to the credibility, integrity and
the overall morality of the presidency now nad forever. The judgement given
by Mr Vladimir Stemberger was given in a court of law in a country with as
impeccable judiciary as anywhere else in the civilised world.
Yours in the Service of Justice, Peace and Progress.
(signed)
A.N.M Ousainou Darboe
(SECRETARY-GENERAL
AND PARTY LEADER, UDP)
****NOTE*****
Any typographically error in this text is solely mine and not that of the
UDP leadership. I tried to type the text as accurately as possible. This
letter was made available to the press. Have a great INDEPENDENCE DAY!!!!!!.
-yama
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 19:04:07 -0600
From: Ndey Drammeh <NDRAMME@wpo.it.luc.edu>
To: isatoub@student.umass.edu, gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Isatou, I disagree!
Message-ID: <s309fd3b.038@wpo.it.luc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
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On 2/17/97, Isatou Bojang wrote:
>Yes, but who has set up this norm? Men have, so I disagree when you
>say that women are also to blame for domestic violence. This issue
>has to do with power and the fact is that in The Gambia (and even
>here), we live in a culture that is male dominated and in which the
>"societal norms" are set by men, and to their advantage. When women
>"marry for the wrong reasons" or feel "that [they should] never
>complain no matter what their husbands do or say to them", as you
>say,it is because of the cultural norms that men have set up, not
>women.
>We need to recognize that nothing about domestic violence is
>the fault of the woman.
Isatou,
I beg to differ on this one! Just because men set the norms of our
society, does that mean that women have to go along with those norms?
I do not think so! Women contribute to domestic violence by not
challenging the norms that allow the male to be the dominant partner in
any relationship. By the way, I am in no shape or form condoning any
form of abuse against women. What I am saying is that, it is time for
women to take control of their lives and start making their own choices
rather than to accept choices made for them by society.
It is important for us to realize that the current social setting is just a
system and thus can be changed, even if it means struggle and
sacrifice. In my opinion, the only way we can bring about social change
is by joining forces as men have done to preserve the status quo, which
is to their advantage. Just because society has said this is how the
system has operated for centuries, does not mean that we should
accept how the system has operated if the system does not treat
women fairly. It is time for us to question societal norms that put women
down if domestic violence or any other form of abuse against women is
to be eliminated.
It is time for us as women to do the things WE WANT to do and NOT
what men want us to do. After all, we deserve to be happy as much as
men.
Best Wishes!
Ndey Kumba
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 20:27:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Jkrubally@aol.com
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Happy Independance
Message-ID: <970218202722_-1876824242@emout01.mail.aol.com>
Happy Independance day to all, May all our wishes and concerns for our
beloved
Gambia come true. It is really nice to read our National Anthem on line
today, thanking all members of gambia-l for the interesting discussions on
line.
Jacob
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 22:05:54 -0500 (EST)
From: MJagana@aol.com
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: NEW MEMBER
Message-ID: <970218220553_244375292@emout03.mail.aol.com>
Daer Momodou Camara,
Can you kindly enlist ALieu Ceesay, his e-mail is ACeesay@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 00:08:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Jamangen@aol.com
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Happy Independance
Message-ID: <970219000837_-1374403914@emout03.mail.aol.com>
Happy Independance Day to all of you!!!!!!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 00:16:36 -0500
From: "PA-MAMBUNA O. BOJANG" <paomar@iglou.com>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
Message-ID: <330A8CB4.E47@iglou.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> I don't feel that by acknowledging that the power inbalance
> between men and women favors the male, is in any way "trading our
> religious values as a result of our mere exposure to the western
> values". I have traded nothing. The
> observations I made stem from the need for us to move away from
> victim-blaming and towards an honest search for the roots of domestic
> violence and how we can prevent it.
>
> Isatou
**********************************************************************
Sister Isatou, accept my sincere appology if I seem to misunderstand your position. I
don't hesitate to offer appologies if I'm suppose to, and I have the resistance to
accept blows without retaliating.
However, our " search for the roots of domestic violence and how we can prevent it"
calls for some very critical and "controversial" points. Let us take ourselves (those of
us in the diaspora, forget about what goes on in the Gambia for the time being) as an
example. Say I want to get married to a lady in Gambia today after being in the U.S for
almost five years. Obviously, I'm not in the Gambia so I will have to be introduced to
the lady through friends from that end and may be through photos (we all know how
deceiving photos from this end can be) and vise-versa. Chances are, the lady from that
end will get excited and happily accept the marriage simply because I'm in the U.S and I
will bring her to the U.S (this may just be my personal understanding). So we get
married even though we may not share a thing in common. I then take the next step by
bringing her to the U.S so we can be together. After a couple of months she and I find
out that we don't have a thing in common. Without daubt, minor quarrels will begin to
develop among us which at some point will most definitely lead to what many address as
"domestic violence".
The question now is: WHO SHOULD BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SO CALLED DOMESTIC VIOLENCE
THAT ARISE BETWEEN ME AND MY WIFE?
I challenge all list members to put on their thinking caps and fundamentally rethink
their position about this issue without fear, favor or gender. Not to sound offensive
and please forgive me if I do, a lot of marriage types discussed above shortlived
because the women involved "premeditated" the divorce before immigrating into the U.S to
join there husbands.
No "hard" feelings. We are searching for the roots of what many called domestic
violence.
Happy independence to everyone.
GOD BLESS!
PA-MAMBUNA, Lexington.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:09:04 +0000
From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: New member
Message-ID: <19970219100803.AAA21350@LOCALNAME>
Gambia-l,
Alieu Ceesay has been added to the list and as a custom, we
expect to have an introduction from him. Welcome to the Gambia-l
Alieu, please send an introduction of yourself to the list.
Best regards
Momodou Camara
*******************************************************
http://home3.inet.tele.dk/mcamara
**"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's
possible and suddenly you are doing the impossible"***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:16:05 +0100
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Nordam?= <asbjorn.nordam@dif.dk>
To: "'gambia'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: a booklet on FGM
Message-ID: <c=DK%a=_%p=DIF%l=DKDIFS02-970219101605Z-105@dkdifs02.dif.dk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just a short comment on FGM. I read all the comments and information
given here, and I just want to tell those of you who are interested,
that the danish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, DANIDA has published a
small booklet 45 pages on that topic:
"Guidelines on the Prevention of Female Genital Mutilation" ISBN 87 -
7265 - 359 0
The Content is: 1. guidelines 2. Background information Appendixes and
Bibliography, in which I can see that Heidi Skramstad "The Fluid
Meanings of Female Circumcision in a Multiethnic Context in Gambia."
DERAP, Chr. Michelsen Institute, Norway, 1990 is included.
On the list of selected NGOs and advocacy groups involved in the
prevention of FGM under Gambia: Mrs. Amie Joof-Cole, GAMCOTRAP, P.O. Box
Serre Kunda 2854, Kanifing phone: (0033) 143481087
I=B4m sorry that I have no access to a scanner, which could be usefull =
for
those of you you are interested in this booklet. Then I could transfer
it. But you can get it from:
Bech Distribution a/s, Himmelevvej 2, P.O.Box 318, DK 4000 Roskilde,
Denmark.
fax (+45 ) 46 75 32 22
It=B4s free and I thing it=B4s very informative.
It opens with a quotation =20
"Female genital mutilation will not be eradicated unless those who are
fighting for change understand the deeply felt beleifs of the people who
practise it " Nahid Toubiam, 1993
Asbj=F8rn Nordam
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:02:52 -0500
From: Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
Message-ID: <330B080C.4C9E@earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
PA-MAMBUNA O. BOJANG wrote:
> example. Say I want to get married to a lady in Gambia today after being in the U.S for
> almost five years. Obviously, I'm not in the Gambia so I will have to be introduced to
> the lady through friends from that end and may be through photos (we all know how
> deceiving photos from this end can be) and vise-versa. Chances are, the lady from that
> end will get excited and happily accept the marriage simply because I'm in the U.S and I
> will bring her to the U.S (this may just be my personal understanding). So we get
> married even though we may not share a thing in common. I then take the next step by
> bringing her to the U.S so we can be together. After a couple of months she and I find
> out that we don't have a thing in common. Without daubt, minor quarrels will begin to
> develop among us which at some point will most definitely lead to what many address as
> "domestic violence".
> The question now is: WHO SHOULD BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SO CALLED DOMESTIC VIOLENCE
> THAT ARISE BETWEEN ME AND MY WIFE?
Let's take this a step further and lets say, for arguments sake, she
even had her eyes on someone else perhaps her REAL boyfriend or
something like that. Say she fools you into marrying her just to get
here and as you say fuels all the discord between the two of you and
thus "'premeditated' the divorce before immigrating into the US"
No matter what happens between the two of you and no matter who is to
blame for the actual arguments, you as a man, in my opinion, have no
business striking her. I would even go to the extreme and say that even
if she has the audacity to hit you, you should be the one to show
restraint.
Why? Well, lets face it, at the end even if the two of you go at it,
who will be the one who is physically abused? Unless your wife is
physically stronger and thus has the upper hand, physically speaking
that is, I doubt if you will indeed be the abused one.
> I challenge all list members to put on their thinking caps and fundamentally rethink
> their position about this issue without fear, favor or gender. Not to sound offensive
> and please forgive me if I do, a lot of marriage types discussed above shortlived
> because the women involved "premeditated" the divorce before immigrating into the U.S to
> join there husbands.
> No "hard" feelings. We are searching for the roots of what many called domestic
> violence.
I think this is generally the point being made here. No matter what
precipitates the fight between a man and his wife the second the man
lifts his hand to strike her, he his reverting the strength he has over
her and so at that point she can no longer be blamed for what occurs
afterwards.
If I was in such a situation (the hypothetical one stated earlier), as a
man, I would hope it would not "definitely lead to what many address as
'domestic violence'." Facts are that we are not perfect and I cannot
say that the rage in me would not lead to exactly that but, and this is
the point, it would not be right or justified and thus definitely NOT
her fault.
I hope I've met your "challenge". :-)
Peace.
Lat
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:57:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Bayard Lyons <blyons@aed.aed.org>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Cc: "GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: THE TROUBLE MAKERS
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970219091448.10500A-100000@aed.aed.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Amadou,
I appreciated your call for a mor personal reconciliation of our conflicts
with polygamy, religion and the west. You personalize and link
responsiblity for polygamy to Africans by suggesting that we accept
polygamy as part of culture rather than blaming religion. You encourage
us to understand what is good with the West as well as bad, which I would
interpret as finding our connections with
the West rather than condemning it. You recommend that we guide ourselves in
resolving conflicts with polygamy and religion by evaluating
situations based on equal reciprication - "Do unto others as you would
have them do unto you."
I agree that a more personal approach can develop an important foundation
for resolving
our often conflicting relationships with religion, culture, history and
the West. However, we also can never again assume a benign role for
religion, in
the case of polygamy, and the West, in its relation to the rest of the
world. There is a complex relationship between religion and culture that
results in polygamy; we cannot understand polygamy by focusing on one
and not the other. The same is true of the relationship between the West
and the Rest. We must personalize the West, accept our connection and
similarity to it while simultaneously working to deconstruct it.
On a concluding note, your argument for personalizing our relationship
with polygamy might be taken to another level. While continuing to
deconstruct the role of religion and culture in initiating and perpetuating
polygamy and domestic
violence we should also be taking a closer look at the contribution
the construct of masculinity has - as some of the subscribers have
mentioned in previous messages.
Bayard Lyons
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 10:25:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Amadou Scattred Janneh <AJANNEH@pstcc.cc.tn.us>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: RE: THE TROUBLE MAKERS
Message-ID: <01IFLHVQDGF0003XN9@PSTCC6.PSTCC.CC.TN.US>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Bayard Lyons:
please specify the "Amadou" you are referring to. I have not yet
contributed to the debates on polygamy and domestic violence, and I
assume another Amadou did.
Amadou Scattred Janneh
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 10:31:21 -0500
From: Ceesay Soffie <Ceesay_Soffie@ems.prc.com>
To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=PRC%l=CRY1-970219153121Z-1599@mcl2.prc.com>
>----------
>From: PA-MAMBUNA O. BOJANG[SMTP:paomar@iglou.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 1997 12:16AM
>To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List
>Subject: Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
>
>
>
Pa Mambuna
Your hypo has actually been put to practice and I was able to impress
upon these people that this was not the end of the world. When it
happens to the woman she bears the embarrassment, moves to another state
and try to get on with her life. Unfortunately, other women make
unflattering remarks about her situation as if she were at fault. She
does not even think to provoke the husband into a fight because she has
a bigger fight ahead, how to raise her head in dignity and with
confidence, amongst her kind who can be very unkind sometimes.
Mr. Bass mentioned access to education, health, etc. as a means of us
improving our lot. I agree. However, in the absence of a formal
setting, I suggest that our "compins" and "attaya" groups, be the venues
where we engage in such discussions, educate our brothers about
behaviours that are not loving and let our sisters know that they have
options. We have been socialized to believe that marriage is the be-all
and the end-all for every woman and that if you don't attain this
status, something must be wrong with you. Not so, in the case of the
man. Why?
The power imbalance should not be shifted but realigned to bring about
equality and justice for all ( lack of a better phrase); When a young
brother with a young wife decides to marry another because the first
'can't' have kids, (he has never been tested for fertility), I am
flabbergasted at the gall of this person for thinking that the wife is
at fault here. This is one kind of abuse that is very devastating to a
person's feeling of self worth and puts a lot of pressure on the new
wife to bear children. Poetic justice results in most of the cases
When minor quarrels ensue, restraint is always called for. You have no
right to strike your spouse or to heap verbal abuse on them. We can all
do our small part in educating ourselves and our sisters and brothers on
this issue and many others.
Thank you, Soffie
>.
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:01:34 -0500
From: Ceesay Soffie <Ceesay_Soffie@ems.prc.com>
To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: THE TROUBLE MAKERS
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=PRC%l=CRY1-970219160134Z-1633@mcl2.prc.com>
If it's just and good for all of us, I don't care to whom they ascribe
it, I will embrace it. Advocating for justice is not a Western
monopoly. It is a human thing .Well said, Amadou Fall!
Soffie
>Finally, I am not subscribing to the infinite wisdom of the West, for
>as amply noted in the various postings by the List members, they have
>their own 'skeletons in the closet' to be worried about. But that does
>not mean that we should not take advantage of the 'Good' that we find
>amongst their 'Values' for our own benefit.
>
>Peace!
>
>Amadou Fall
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:18:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Isatou Bojang <isatoub@student.umass.edu>
To: gambia list <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Ndey, I agree, but disagree!
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.970219110842.339A-100000@wilde.oit.umass.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 18 Feb 1997, Ndey Drammeh wrote:
>
> Isatou,
>
> I beg to differ on this one! Just because men set the norms of our
> society, does that mean that women have to go along with those norms?
> I do not think so! Women contribute to domestic violence by not
> challenging the norms that allow the male to be the dominant partner in
> any relationship. By the way, I am in no shape or form condoning any
> form of abuse against women. What I am saying is that, it is time for
> women to take control of their lives and start making their own choices
> rather than to accept choices made for them by society.
>
> It is important for us to realize that the current social setting is just a
> system and thus can be changed, even if it means struggle and
> sacrifice. In my opinion, the only way we can bring about social change
> is by joining forces as men have done to preserve the status quo, which
> is to their advantage. Just because society has said this is how the
> system has operated for centuries, does not mean that we should
> accept how the system has operated if the system does not treat
> women fairly. It is time for us to question societal norms that put women
> down if domestic violence or any other form of abuse against women is
> to be eliminated.
>
> It is time for us as women to do the things WE WANT to do and NOT
> what men want us to do. After all, we deserve to be happy as much as
> men.
>
> Best Wishes!
>
>
> Ndey Kumba
>
Ndey,
I agree that it is time women challenged the status quo but as
you acknowledge, things have been the way they've been for centuries so
it is unrealistic to expect us as women to overcome them right away.
Having said that, I still do not believe in blaming the victim for
failing to stand up to the perpetrator. There is a difference between
recognizing something and accepting it. Give her time, her day will come.
Isatou
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 16:04:57 +0000
From: "M'BAI OF" <O.F.M'Bai@icsl.ac.uk>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: "RESIGN IMMEDIATELY, PRESIDENT JAMMEH"-Ousainou Darboe
Message-ID: <199702191605.QAA17677@netmail.city.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Well done Yama , I am extremely delighted to have learnt that
there is another concerned Gambian citizen sharing the same views
with me .
I think it Is absolutely ridiculous and nerve wrecking to see some
Gambians speaking highly of the above named person. He is becom-
ing even worst than his accomplice. This kind of behaviour is what
led me to depict politics in Africa as disgusting and barbaric. Our
leaders are not in power to safeguard the interest and welfare of the
people but to enrich their own selves and their immediate family
and tribe but still people give them the "green light " . It just
shows how lethal it is to be an ignorant . People can be highly
educated but at the same time , highly ignorant.
This was my subject few weeks ago but only one person (BASS)
replied who gave an incredible and an accurate account of African
History but yet inconstructive and highly irrelevant to my question.
I don't have anything personal against Yahya , my problem with
him is the false impression he gives to our people . The negative
image he is giving to our well respected and highly educated
members of our community. This is nothing but a vendetta against
innocent and hard working people whose losses reflects not just on
them individually but on the whole community as a whole.This is
just one reason why 95% of all the prominent members of our
society migrated abroad which is not what they want to do but
what they have being forced to do by the system. For this reason,
it makse me sick to see or hearpeople praising or giving their support to
such governance. They fail to realise that the system of Govern-
ment adopted by our leaders is so prejudicial that it outweighs the
probative values of the country and its inhabitants.This is somethin
that should be healed NOW or else we will continue living in misery
and darkness .I don't really care if people see this differently or
oppose my view, because this has been my view yesterday,it is my
view today and it will continue to be my view in the unforseeable
future.
I wander when it will all come to an end!!!!!!!!!!!!
Regards,
OMAR F. M'BAI
LONDON.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 12:20:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Bayard Lyons <blyons@aed.aed.org>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Cc: "GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: THE TROUBLE MAKERS
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970219121924.2764A-100000@aed.aed.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Amadou Scattred Janneh,
I was referring to Amadou Fall's message. Sorry for the mix-up.
Bayard Lyons
On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Amadou Scattred Janneh wrote:
> Bayard Lyons:
>
> please specify the "Amadou" you are referring to. I have not yet
> contributed to the debates on polygamy and domestic violence, and I
> assume another Amadou did.
>
> Amadou Scattred Janneh
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 13:47:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Bayard Lyons <blyons@aed.aed.org>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Cc: "GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970219132940.4813B-100000@aed.aed.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Bayard Lyons
"Sen de haklisin!" - Nasrettin Hoca
"You are also right! - Nasrettin Hoca
On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, PA-MAMBUNA O. BOJANG wrote:
> The question now is: WHO SHOULD BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SO CALLED DOMESTIC VIOLENCE
> THAT ARISE BETWEEN ME AND MY WIFE?
> I challenge all list members to put on their thinking caps and fundamentally rethink
> their position about this issue without fear, favor or gender. Not to sound offensive
> and please forgive me if I do, a lot of marriage types discussed above shortlived
> because the women involved "premeditated" the divorce before immigrating into the U.S to
> join there husbands.
> No "hard" feelings. We are searching for the roots of what many called domestic
> violence.
> Happy independence to everyone.
>
> GOD BLESS!
> PA-MAMBUNA, Lexington.
Pa-Mambuna - I think that the emphasis on men's role in domestic violence
comes from many recorded incedences of women being beaten and even killed
by their spouse. I am a volunteer counselor of men who are violent to
their spouses. Often the complaints of the men who are required to attend
the program are concerning how their spouse incited them to become violent.
In a
relationship there is bound to be disagreements and arguments. However,
it is a dangerous situation where one person uses physical and
psychological intimidation in an attempt to control the other person.
Because of men's generally greater physical strength and their socially
prescribed dominant roles men are more likely to seek to control their
wife or girl-friend rather than the other way around.
The countless incidences of male on female
domestic violence are evidence of this.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:01:09 -0800
From: sarian@osmosys.incog.com (Sarian Loum)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
Message-ID: <199702191901.LAA02594@thesky.incog.com>
Hi,
Well for one thing, you should avoid this arranged marriage through family members or photos. If you don't know the person you are marrying then why bother to get married in the first place.
If one really wants a spouse then they should take the trouble to go home and make it their business to find who they are compatable with rather than relying on family members to do that for them. I personally have a hard time with this exportation of wives to the U.S. or wherever you are. You all are well educated enough to know that things work differently in the U.S. this is a high stress environment with different expectations so no matter how illiterate one is you tend to learn fast and the realization that, men cannot get away with enslaving women in this country especially given the factor that women have to work as well. Men are not sole providers in this country infact very few if any Africans can afford to keep their wives home and be the sole bread winner. Its just not economical given that this is an individualistic society and there are no aunties, uncles, siblings to come to your rescue. In other words no extended family help evrybody is on their own.
I think this is what most African men fail to realize that these wives are contributing to the maintenance of the home and yet are expected to cook, clean, and care for the kids and yet still be subserviant to their spouses. If these women speak up then they are seen as being smart mouth or are picking up American habits. I say in America do as the Americans do. Since domestic help (mbindaans) is unaffordable here then there should be equal treatment of partners. Everybody contributes so then why should women be subserviant to their spouses? And before anybody starts quoting the Quran, (I don't know what it tells you guys to do and not do) but I'm pretty darn sure it doesn't condone enslavement of women. And for those who are marrying these 4-5 wives, one doesn't have to be lectured to figure out that if you can't afford to support all these wives/children then you shouldn't have to do it even if thats whats your religion tells you to do. If only most of the time peopl!
e put on their thinking caps then there shouldn't be all these hassles with domestic problems.
The problem is we want to live in the West and take full advantage of all the opportunities and comfort it has to offer and yet condemned it because it also promotes freedom of speech and independence (what some African men would call disadvantages of living in the west because their women quickly recognize that they don't have to be enslaves or subservient to their spouses) in that case it'll be seen or viewed as trading your "values". Make up your minds guys and treat others as you would want to be treated. This could be a big step towards addressing domestic violence.
Sarian
> From paomar@iglou.com Tue Feb 18 21:17:10 1997
> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 00:16:36 -0500
> From: "PA-MAMBUNA O. BOJANG" <paomar@iglou.com>
> To: "GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
>
> > I don't feel that by acknowledging that the power inbalance
> > between men and women favors the male, is in any way "trading our
> > religious values as a result of our mere exposure to the western
> > values". I have traded nothing. The
> > observations I made stem from the need for us to move away from
> > victim-blaming and towards an honest search for the roots of domestic
> > violence and how we can prevent it.
> >
> > Isatou
>
> **********************************************************************
>
> Sister Isatou, accept my sincere appology if I seem to misunderstand your position. I
> don't hesitate to offer appologies if I'm suppose to, and I have the resistance to
> accept blows without retaliating.
> However, our " search for the roots of domestic violence and how we can prevent it"
> calls for some very critical and "controversial" points. Let us take ourselves (those of
> us in the diaspora, forget about what goes on in the Gambia for the time being) as an
> example. Say I want to get married to a lady in Gambia today after being in the U.S for
> almost five years. Obviously, I'm not in the Gambia so I will have to be introduced to
> the lady through friends from that end and may be through photos (we all know how
> deceiving photos from this end can be) and vise-versa. Chances are, the lady from that
> end will get excited and happily accept the marriage simply because I'm in the U.S and I
> will bring her to the U.S (this may just be my personal understanding). So we get
> married even though we may not share a thing in common. I then take the next step by
> bringing her to the U.S so we can be together. After a couple of months she and I find
> out that we don't have a thing in common. Without daubt, minor quarrels will begin to
> develop among us which at some point will most definitely lead to what many address as
> "domestic violence".
> The question now is: WHO SHOULD BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SO CALLED DOMESTIC VIOLENCE
> THAT ARISE BETWEEN ME AND MY WIFE?
> I challenge all list members to put on their thinking caps and fundamentally rethink
> their position about this issue without fear, favor or gender. Not to sound offensive
> and please forgive me if I do, a lot of marriage types discussed above shortlived
> because the women involved "premeditated" the divorce before immigrating into the U.S to
> join there husbands.
> No "hard" feelings. We are searching for the roots of what many called domestic
> violence.
> Happy independence to everyone.
>
> GOD BLESS!
> PA-MAMBUNA, Lexington.
>
------------------------------
|
|
|
Momodou
Denmark
11508 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2021 : 15:17:38
|
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 20:09:30 +0000
From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: New member
Message-ID: <19970219190805.AAA14674@LOCALNAME>
Gambia-l,
Essa C. A.Bah has been added to the list and as a custom, we
expect to have an introduction from him. Welcome to the Gambia-l
Essa, please send an introduction of yourself to the list.
Best regards
Momodou Camara
*******************************************************
http://home3.inet.tele.dk/mcamara
**"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's
possible and suddenly you are doing the impossible"***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 20:21:03 +0000
From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: New Member
Message-ID: <19970219191938.AAA10492@LOCALNAME>
Gambia-l,
Sean Oleary has been added to the list. Welcome to Gambia-l Sean and
please send an introduction of yourself.
Regards
Momodou Camara
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:16:31 +0000
From: "SISSOHO EM" <E.M.Sissoho@icsl.ac.uk>
To: Gambia-l@u.Washington.EDU
Subject: BASSS -- WHERE IS PART 2 OF "P IN AFRICA"
Message-ID: <199702191917.TAA09605@netmail.city.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
SIR
You would agree that patience is a virtue,I have been!!I understand
you may have other demands on your time ,so I shall "hang on"a bit
longer before responding to your "THESIS"
Regards,Edrisa
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 17:42:20 -0600
From: Ndey Drammeh <NDRAMME@wpo.it.luc.edu>
To: isatoub@student.umass.edu, gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Ndey, I agree, but disagree! -Reply
Message-ID: <s30b3b9d.006@wpo.it.luc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Disposition: inline
Isatou,
I think you misunderstood my point; I am definitely not advocating
changing the system overnight. Yes, you are right, changing the social
system will indeed taking some time. However, change has to start
somewhere. If we don't start somewhere, "Our day" will never come!!
Ndey Kumba
On 2/19/97, Isatou Bojang wrote:
>>> Isatou Bojang <isatoub@student.umass.edu> 02/19/97 10:18am >>>
Ndey,
> I agree that it is time women challenged the status quo but as
>you acknowledge, things have been the way they've been for
>centuries so it is unrealistic to expect us as women to overcome them
>right away. Having said that, I still do not believe in blaming the victim for
>failing to stand up to the perpetrator. There is a difference between
>recognizing something and accepting it. Give her time, her day will
>come.
Isatou
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 03:44:17 +0300
From: BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH <KOLLS567@QATAR.NET.QA>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: BASSS -- WHERE IS PART 2 OF "P IN AFRICA"
Message-ID: <31291961.4DCC@QATAR.NET.QA>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
SISSOHO EM wrote:
>=20
> SIR
> You would agree that patience is a virtue,I have been!!I understand
> you may have other demands on your time ,so I shall "hang on"a bit
> longer before responding to your "THESIS"
> Regards,Edrisa
MR.SISSOHO!!
YOU KNOW,YOU WON'T BELIEVE THIS.I WROTE THAT ARTICLE;BUT JUST AS I WAS
ABOUT TO EDIT IT,MY COMPUTER DID SOME INCREDIBLY FUNNY THINGS,AND AFTER
IT CALMED DOWN,I COULD NOT FIND THIS ARTICLE AGAIN,AS IF IT EVAPORATED
IN THIN AIR.AND I WAS SO ANGRY THAT I SORT OF SHELVED THE SUBJECT FOR A
WHILE.
I WAS GOING TO DO SOME LITTLE RESEARCH ON POLYGAMY THIS WEEKEND,BUT IF
YOU ARE THAT INTERESTED IN THE (PART 2) OF THE Politics In Africa,I CAN
WRITE THAT INSTEAD.
THANKS FOR YOUR INTEREST,AND KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK DOWN THERE!!
REGARDS BASSSSS!!!
--=20
SZDD=88=F0'3Af=A8=03
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 21:25:23 -0600
From: Ndey Drammeh <NDRAMME@wpo.it.luc.edu>
To: paomar@iglou.com, gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Exporting Wives from home!
Message-ID: <s30b6fcb.093@wpo.it.luc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Disposition: inline
Gambia-L,
The posting by Pa-Mambuna triggered this question: why do some
of our men residing abroad decide to "export wives" (as Sarian Loum
puts it) from home? Does this practice have anything to do with the
delusion that the sisters in the diaspora have adopted so call "western
values" in place of traditional African values? Comments, anyone?
On 2/18/97, Pa-Mambuna o. Bojang wrote:
>>> "PA-MAMBUNA O. BOJANG" <paomar@iglou.com> 02/18/97
11:16pm >>>
>....... Let us take ourselves (those of us in the diaspora, forget about
>what goes on in the Gambia for the time being) as an example. Say I
>want to get married to a lady in Gambia today after being in the U.S for
>almost five years. Obviously, I'm not in the Gambia so I will have to be
>introduced to the lady through friends from that end and may be
>through photos (we all know how deceiving photos from this end can
>be) and vise-versa. Chances are, the lady from that end will get
>excited and happily accept the marriage simply because I'm in the U.S
>and I will bring her to the U.S (this may just be my personal
>understanding)......
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:44:09 -0800 (PST)
From: "A. Loum" <tloum@u.washington.edu>
To: Gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: News story forward
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.970219194129.12082A-100000@saul7.u.washington.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
BANJUL, Feb 18 (AFP) - Gambia on Tuesday celebrated the 32nd
anniverary of its independence, but remained without agovernment
following a
return to democracy after elections held more than a month ago.
President Yahya Jammeh, elected members of parliament and
foreign
diplomats in the small west African country watched a parade by
security
forces and school students at a stadium in a Banjul suburb.
Gambians were still waiting for Jammeh to form a civilian
government,
following his period of military rule between July 1994, when
he came to
power in a bloodless coup, and January this year.
Observers said he has been having difficulties choosing a
vice-president.
The man tipped to take the post, Captain Edward Singhateh, is
27 years old,
but the constitution states that 30 is the minimum age required
to take up the
post.
In their next session, members of the national assembly are
considered likely
to amend the constitution to allow Singhateh to take up the
post.
Gambia is also awaiting the renewal of economic cooperation by
western
countries which froze assistance following the 1994 coup that
toppled former
president Dawda Jawara.
The European Union recently hailed the conduct of the
parliamentary elections
and the release of most political prisoners. Officials have
said the only two
people still detained are two corporals accused of mounting a
foiled coup plot
in November 1994.
dh-jh/nb
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:09:36 JST +900
From: binta@iuj.ac.jp
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: News story forward
Message-ID: <199702200506.OAA02376@mlsv.iuj.ac.jp>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Tony,
Thanks for the news story. Any comment from members?
Lamin.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 00:30:29 -0500
From: Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Vice-Presidency Issue
Message-ID: <330BE175.5D61@earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Observers said he [Jammeh] has been having difficulties choosing a
> vice-president.
>
> The man tipped to take the post, Captain Edward Singhateh, is
> 27 years old,
> but the constitution states that 30 is the minimum age required
> to take up the
> post.
>
> In their next session, members of the national assembly are
> considered likely
> to amend the constitution to allow Singhateh to take up the
> post. [Feb 18 (AFP)]
This issue of the vice-presidency is one that has been raised on many
occasions by myself and others since I joined this list last November
but has received very little response. I believe it is an important one
because it serves as a litmus test of sorts for our new government and
parliamentary body.
It seems quite likely that the will of the people, just freshly
expressed barely six months ago in a national referendum on the new
constitution, is going to be ignored or at least overlooked by our newly
elected officials.
The question, however, is a complex one and I believe it deserves some
thought and perhaps discussion.
I call it a litmus test because I think that most of us are expecting a
more competent parliamentary body then the one we've had for most of the
last thirty years. At the least I believe that we all expect more than
a group of rubber-stampers at the whim of the soon to be 'Alhaji' Yahya
A.J.J Jammeh.
On the other hand we cannot ignore the fact that 'retired' Capt.
Singhateh has a significant following in the Army, one that is headed by
his own brother, that may be seen, in the eyes of our earnest lawmakers,
as a threat to national security.
Whichever the case, we must again remember that the A(F)PRC has
continually reminded us that the 1996 Second Republican Constitution is
the result of "close consultations with the people" through the
Constitutional Review Committee(?) and a "thorough review process"
before it was overwhelmingly adopted by the same 'people'.
Since this is the case surely it is a document that should not be
tampered with in such a manner. I'm sure National Assembly members have
their work cut out for themselves especially since this constitution is
by no means perfect so I expect that amendments are in order but this
should not include political/personal tinkering.
I know issues like this usually invoke partisan political discussions
that some list members find somewhat unattractive so perhaps we can put
our pro/anti Jammeh persuasions aside for something more constructive.
The subject of the cabinet also brings about up another question
(slightly trivial) I've had that perhaps some of the political
scientists/experts on the list or anyone can help answer.
Now that we have forgone 'Ministers' for the US style 'Secretaries of
State' will the government 'ministries' revert to the pre-independence
'departments'? What about the position of 'Permanent-Sectretary'? Will
it be replaced with say 'Deputy-Secretary'?
Peace.
Lat
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 01:41:26 -0500 (EST)
From: ASJanneh@aol.com
To: latir@earthlink.net, gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Vice-Presidency Issue
Message-ID: <970220014125_-1909907661@emout08.mail.aol.com>
Gambia-l:
The APRC's handcrafted Constitution was apparently written in pencil.
Blame the West for not providing Jammeh and cohorts with an ink pen!
Amadou Scattred Janneh
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:11:10 +0100
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Nordam?= <asbjorn.nordam@dif.dk>
To: "'gambia'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: comment on domistic violence
Message-ID: <c=DK%a=_%p=DIF%l=DKDIFS02-970220101110Z-54@dkdifs02.dif.dk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Domistic violence exists in many societies. As many of you have allready
said, there can be lots of resons, anger, frustration, living conditions
or other social-oriented reasons. The way we have been braught up can
influent, and we have heard about persons, who we believe have a violent
character (!). A violent act can be the result of a sudden,
not-explainable black out. The way we are braught up, the living
conditions (how happy a life do you have) can influence how high or low
your threshold is.=20
BUT I don=B4t think there is any excuse for violence in any society =
(even
it has allways been there). And the responsibility for showing, that
violence is not acceptable, lies on all of us.
It=B4s not tabu, but close to. We men very seldom talk about it, if we
know of a violent friend. And up here in Denmark, I don=B4t think that =
we
are trained to take responsibility and intervene in conflicts. We =
don=B4t
intervene if we witness our neighbour beating his wife. We leave the
problem to others, we call the police, and never take the man aside and
tell him, that we as neighbours will not tolerate his behavior. We men
have been boys and we are braught up by our fathers and specially our
mothers. How come that we one day can turn violent against a women maybe
ones wife ?
A question: I know that in some Islands near West Africa we have a
matriarchy society. Does any one of you know how it is there about the
mens role as the agressor or the victim, if there exist domistic
violence that place ?
Asbj=F8rn
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 15:33:48 +0000 (GMT)
From: J GAYE <J.Gaye@Bradford.ac.uk>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: New Memeber
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970220153111.14085C-100000@kite.cen.brad.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Can you please add Nyakasi Jarju to the list? His address is
"N.JARJU"<CD6C6JNJ@swansea.ac.uk>
Regards
J.Gaye
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:14:52 +0000
From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: New members
Message-ID: <19970220161330.AAA27498@LOCALNAME>
Gambia-l,
Both Yusupha Jatta and Nyakasi Jarju have been added to the list and
as a custom, we expect to have introductions from them. Welcome to
the Gambia-l Payus and Nyakasi, please send your introductions to
the list and we look forward to your contributions.
Best regards
Momodou Camara
*******************************************************
http://home3.inet.tele.dk/mcamara
**"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's
possible and suddenly you are doing the impossible"***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:44:28 -0500
From: Ceesay Soffie <Ceesay_Soffie@ems.prc.com>
To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: Exporting Wives from home!
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=PRC%l=CRY1-970220164428Z-2524@mcl2.prc.com>
Ndey -
What I think it is, in some of the cases, is that sisters have stopped
accepting the short end of the stick, so to speak and it has much to do
with knowing and accepting what the HUMAN way of being treated is not
what you are used to seeing. After saying that, I shall proceed with
this:
The majority of us on this medium have had the opportunity to see the
other side of doing things and as such should incorporate the good we
knew and the good we discovered to do and be better. We can all become
fleas for justice - bite and bite until the rest become sensitized.
Until then, my brothers and sisters:
YOUR WIFE IS NOT YOUR MOM OR YOUR MAID; SHARE IN PARENTING YOUR KIDS
(you are not helping her, they are yours too); BE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR
MESS (for no where is it decreed that only women are capable of cooking,
cleaning, washing, etc.); BE FINANCIALLY RESPONSIBLE ( no where is it
decreed that only men should be the sole bread winners in a family);
TREAT YOUR HUSBAND AS YOU WOULD WANT TO BE TREATED AND VICE VERSA; HAVE
SELECTIVE AMNESIA (every wrong you bring forth further strains a
relationship); Lastly, MARRIAGE IS A PARTNERSHIP, YOU GIVE AND GIVE, AND
GIVE SOME MORE. WE WORK HARD FOR OUR SUCCESSES. WE CAN WORK HARD ON
OUR RELATIONSHIPS AS WELL.
Thank you - Soffie Ceesay
>----------
>From: Ndey Drammeh[SMTP:NDRAMME@wpo.it.luc.edu]
>Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 1997 10:25PM
>To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List
>Subject: Re: Exporting Wives from home!
>
>Gambia-L,
>
>The posting by Pa-Mambuna triggered this question: why do some
>of our men residing abroad decide to "export wives" (as Sarian Loum
>puts it) from home? Does this practice have anything to do with the
>delusion that the sisters in the diaspora have adopted so call "western
>values" in place of traditional African values? Comments, anyone?
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:31:35 -0500 (EST)
From: "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Cc: msjaiteh@mtu.edu (Malanding S. Jaiteh)
Subject: GPDM address
Message-ID: <199702201931.OAA07564@cedar.ffr.mtu.edu>
Content-Type: text
Hi folks,
Can someone confirm for me the existence of a Gambian Pro-Democracy
Movement based in the US. Also of interest to me is their
address or any contact person. Please send responses to
msjaiteh@mtu.edu
Thanks
Malanding
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 21:57:20 +0100
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Nordam?= <asbjorn.nordam@dif.dk>
To: "'gambia'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: ? polygamy
Message-ID: <c=DK%a=_%p=DIF%l=DKDIFS02-970220205720Z-131@dkdifs02.dif.dk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
After reading the below mentionned statement of MKCorra, I come to
think, if polygamy is only practised as a husband having 2 or more
wifes. Can any of you tell me, if you know about a wife having 2 or more
husbands ? I=B4ve never met that, why not ? Is this a ridiculous =
question
?
Asbj=F8rn Nordam
Quotation: "Again, I am not interested in making this a personal issue
or a personal attack. polygamy has been and is an institution in
Africa. Social institutions take the longest to change. Many of
my relatives, my father, brothers, cousins, nephews, etc., have
been in polygamous relationships and some still are. It is a
problem, never the less, that impacts all of our lives and, in my
opinion, it is a hinderance to the progress of that continent of
ours. No statement on such a system could be too harsh; for our
beloved continent is at a crucial stage, at a life and death
stage. We either take a direction toward the world scenery or
establish permanency in being the only continent disconnected
from economic and social development. We can choose to take
responsibility and move forward or be permanent laggards.
Indeed, it is a difficult task to recognize a system that one
benefits from as wrong; however, it takes a courageous person, a
strong person, one of intense resistance to see the truth even
when it affects him or her. In this regard, I commend Abdou for
bringing this important issue up and having the courage to do so."
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 16:10:25 -0500 (EST)
From: ASJanneh@aol.com
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: GPDM address
Message-ID: <970220161023_508577902@emout05.mail.aol.com>
Malanding:
The Gambia Pro-Democracy Movement was formed in 1994 to exert pressure on the
AFPRC to shorten the transition to civilian rule and to promote democracy in
The Gambia. The group issued a statement to the military to that respect and
some kind of exchange ensued, including a meeting in the USA with members of
a government delegation (the late Koro Ceesay being one of them).
The group included: Dr. Sulayman Nyang, Dr. Tijan Sallah, Dr. Amadou Janneh,
Dr. Sigga Jagne, Tombong Saidy, and many more. I don't have a list before
me, but I believe it should give you an idea. Ooops! Latjor, too!
The group has been largely inactive since the initial activities.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:17:32 -0800
From: sarian@osmosys.incog.com (Sarian Loum)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: ? polygamy
Message-ID: <199702202217.OAA03645@thesky.incog.com>
Hi,
This is not a ridiculous question. Indeed there is such thing as a woman having more than one husband, its called "POLYANDRY". Long time ago I came across this doing research in one of my English courses during my undergrad school days. Infact If I remember correctly people from Tibet (Asia) practiced this. The reason I recall was that the no of women outweighed the men.
Sarian
> From asbjorn.nordam@dif.dk Thu Feb 20 13:00:28 1997
> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 21:57:20 +0100
> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Nordam?= <asbjorn.nordam@dif.dk>
> To: "GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
> Subject: ? polygamy
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> X-To: "'gambia'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
> X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
>
> After reading the below mentionned statement of MKCorra, I come to
> think, if polygamy is only practised as a husband having 2 or more
> wifes. Can any of you tell me, if you know about a wife having 2 or more
> husbands ? I´ve never met that, why not ? Is this a ridiculous question
> ?
> Asbjørn Nordam
>
> Quotation: "Again, I am not interested in making this a personal issue
> or a personal attack. polygamy has been and is an institution in
> Africa. Social institutions take the longest to change. Many of
> my relatives, my father, brothers, cousins, nephews, etc., have
> been in polygamous relationships and some still are. It is a
> problem, never the less, that impacts all of our lives and, in my
> opinion, it is a hinderance to the progress of that continent of
> ours. No statement on such a system could be too harsh; for our
> beloved continent is at a crucial stage, at a life and death
> stage. We either take a direction toward the world scenery or
> establish permanency in being the only continent disconnected
> from economic and social development. We can choose to take
> responsibility and move forward or be permanent laggards.
> Indeed, it is a difficult task to recognize a system that one
> benefits from as wrong; however, it takes a courageous person, a
> strong person, one of intense resistance to see the truth even
> when it affects him or her. In this regard, I commend Abdou for
> bringing this important issue up and having the courage to do so."
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 23:42:21 +0000
From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: New members
Message-ID: <19970220224103.AAA23432@LOCALNAME>
Gambia-l,
Both Mactar Diagne and Sister Adama .S. Njie have been
added to the list and as a custom, we expect to have introductions
from them. Welcome to the Gambia-l , please send your introductions
to the list and we look forward to your contributions.
Best regards
Momodou Camara
*******************************************************
http://home3.inet.tele.dk/mcamara
**"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's
possible and suddenly you are doing the impossible"***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 16:45:00 +0000
From: "NJIE OMAR E" <964NJIE@alpha.nlu.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: RE: Exporting Wives from home!
Message-ID: <199702202246.OAA19778@mx3.u.washington.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
> >
> >The posting by Pa-Mambuna triggered this question: why do some
> >of our men residing abroad decide to "export wives" (as Sarian Loum
> >puts it) from home? Does this practice have anything to do with the
> >delusion that the sisters in the diaspora have adopted so call "western
> >values" in place of traditional African values? Comments, anyone?
> >
> >
These are interesting questions which I want to know the answers to.
Individuals who marry their wives (export??) from home may have
varying reasons for doing so. However, I for one is more interested
in marrying a sister in the diaspora who will understand and relate
to what it means to live and struggle in a foreign country.
Most people back home (perhaps including me while I was at home) have
an unrealistic idea as to how people "make it" abroad. They see the
end product of the new arrivals' (people returning home or visiting)
successes. What they don't see is that those people work perhaps 2-3
jobs almost 24 hours a day. Some with advanced education might have
worked as kitchen helpers or janitors just to finance their education
or to supplement whatever allowances and stipends they were
receiving.
Those unrealistic ideas may help explain the eventual marriage
conflicts Pa Mambuna talked about earlier. The fellow who've
*"exported" [*I hate to use that term] his wife from home is unable
to meet the lady's "great expectations".
As I said earlier, different individuals have different reasons for
marrying from home, whatever those reasons are, I don't know!!
Omar.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:02:48 +0000
From: "NJIE OMAR E" <964NJIE@alpha.nlu.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: ? polygamy
Message-ID: <199702202304.PAA21827@mx3.u.washington.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
> After reading the below mentionned statement of MKCorra, I come to
> think, if polygamy is only practised as a husband having 2 or more
> wifes. Can any of you tell me, if you know about a wife having 2 or more
> husbands ? I've never met that, why not ? Is this a ridiculous question
Asbjorn,
I have a good friend who attended the same undergraduate college with
me in Kentucky, a Tibetan but resided in India (and he's back home
now) who told me about a friend in India whose mother had 3 husbands.
He told me that it was not uncommon to find a woman married to more
than one husband in that part of India.
Omar.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 19:22:09 -0500 (EST)
From: "N'Deye Marie Njie" <njie.1@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Ndey, I agree, but disagree!
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19970220192301.25af470a@pop.service.ohio-state.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Isatou,
I'm sorry but I disagree! I think that it IS realistic for us to expect
women to overcome societal norms regarding domestic violence. The old
saying of "give her time, her day will come" is just that... old!! The
young sister who was killed in New York, her time ran out. And for most of
the women out there, their time will run out too if they don't stand up and
fight this. The death of this lady is something we should all learn from.
I am tired of hearing comments like "it's been in our culture for years..."
Just because it was the done thing does not make it right. It's way past
time for us as women to be responsible for our lives. It's true that it
takes great courage to break away from an abusive relationship, especially
when our peers and elders talk/intimidate and sometimes even force us into
staying in it. But as african women, we have been taught to hone, culture
and develop that innner strength and use it to its fullest potential
especially where it is most needed -- in the sanctuary of marriage. We are
all familliar with the phrase "Geegain dafaa mu'ngne!", meaning "a woman
must always learn tolerance". It is this very inner strength that women
should use to break away from abusive relationships.
As Ya Soffie said, we should begin this education with our brothers and
sisters, our sons and daughters and our 'compinns' and 'attaya' groups.
After all, charity begins at home!
Peace,
N'Deye Marie
At 11:18 AM 2/19/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On Tue, 18 Feb 1997, Ndey Drammeh wrote:
>>
>> Isatou,
>>
>> I beg to differ on this one! Just because men set the norms of our
>> society, does that mean that women have to go along with those norms?
>> I do not think so! Women contribute to domestic violence by not
>> challenging the norms that allow the male to be the dominant partner in
>> any relationship. By the way, I am in no shape or form condoning any
>> form of abuse against women. What I am saying is that, it is time for
>> women to take control of their lives and start making their own choices
>> rather than to accept choices made for them by society.
>>
>> It is important for us to realize that the current social setting is just a
>> system and thus can be changed, even if it means struggle and
>> sacrifice. In my opinion, the only way we can bring about social change
>> is by joining forces as men have done to preserve the status quo, which
>> is to their advantage. Just because society has said this is how the
>> system has operated for centuries, does not mean that we should
>> accept how the system has operated if the system does not treat
>> women fairly. It is time for us to question societal norms that put women
>> down if domestic violence or any other form of abuse against women is
>> to be eliminated.
>>
>> It is time for us as women to do the things WE WANT to do and NOT
>> what men want us to do. After all, we deserve to be happy as much as
>> men.
>>
>> Best Wishes!
>>
>>
>> Ndey Kumba
>>
> Ndey,
> I agree that it is time women challenged the status quo but as
>you acknowledge, things have been the way they've been for centuries so
>it is unrealistic to expect us as women to overcome them right away.
>Having said that, I still do not believe in blaming the victim for
>failing to stand up to the perpetrator. There is a difference between
>recognizing something and accepting it. Give her time, her day will come.
>
> Isatou
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 19:30:04 -0500 (EST)
From: "N'Deye Marie Njie" <njie.1@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu, africans@iastate.edu
Subject: Graduate Assistantship Announcements (fwd)
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19970220193055.26876ad6@pop.service.ohio-state.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>>
>>Two Graduate Research Assistantships Available
>>
>>Position 1: Graduate Research Assistant, 1/2 time
>>
>>Location: Department of Biosystems Science and Engineering
>> University of Maine, 5710 Bio-Resource Bldg.
>> Orono, ME 04469-5710
>> (207) 581-2709
>>
>>Job Responsibilities:
>> A student prepared to pursue an advanced degree in Bio-Resource
>> Engineering is sought to contribute research to a continuuing water
>> quality study. The research project deals with water quality
>> impacts of human activities, specifically, alternative cropping
>> systems for potato production and windrow composting facilities. The
>> applicant will be expected to pursue coursework and other
>> requirements to obtain a Master's Degree with a thesis.
>>
>>Qualifications:
>> Must have a B.S. in Agricultural Engineering, Biological Engineering
>> or other closesly related engineering field. The applicant should
>> have a strong interest and career objectives in the field of
>> environmental engineering.. Excellent verbal and written
>> communication skills are required. Applicant must meet University of
>> Maine Graduate School entrance requirements.
>>
>>Salary:
>>$10,000 annual stipend; and tuition
>>
>>Position Available: Currently until suitable candidate is found.
>>
>>Position 2: Graduate Research Assistant, 1/2 time
>>
>>Job Responsibilities:
>> A student prepared to pursue an advanced degree in Bio-Resource
>> Engineering is sought to contribute research to an in-vessel
>> composting study. The research project involves optimizing in-vessel
>> composting of crab processing wastes. The applicant will be
>> expected to pursue coursework and other requirements to obtain a
>> Master's Degree with a thesis.
>>
>>Qualifications:
>> Must have a B.S. in Agricultural Engineering, Biological Engineering
>> or other closesly related engineering field. The applicant should
>> have a strong interest and career objectives in the field of
>> environmental engineering and waste management. Excellent verbal and
>> written communication skills are required. Applicant must meet
>> University of Maine Graduate School entrance requirements.
>>
>>Salary:
>>$10,000 annual stipend; and tuition
>>
>>Position Available: May 30, 1997.
>>
>>Contact Information:
>>
>>Dr. Rose Mary Seymour
>>University of Maine
>>5710 Bio-Resource Bldg.
>>Orono, ME 04469-5710
>>Phone: (207) 581-2727
>>FAX: (207) 581-2725
>>email: rseymour@apollo.umenfa.maine.edu
>>
>>%%%%%%%%%
>>Rose Mary Seymour
>>5710 Bio-Resources Engineering Department
>>University of Maine
>>Orono, ME 04469-5710
>>Phone: 207-581-2727 FAX: 581-2725
>>rseymour@apollo.umenfa.maine.edu
>>"Opportunity is missed by most people because
>>it is dressed in overalls and looks like work."
>>--Thomas Edison
>>%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>>
>>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 05:07:42 +0300
From: BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH <KOLLS567@QATAR.NET.QA>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: ? polygamy
Message-ID: <312A7E6E.2828@QATAR.NET.QA>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sarian Loum wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> This is not a ridiculous question. Indeed there is such thing as a wom=
an having more than one husband, its called "POLYANDRY". Long time ago I=
came across this doing research in one of my English courses during my u=
ndergrad school days. Infact If I remember correctly people from Tibet (=
Asia) practiced this. The reason I recall was that the no of women outw=
eighed the men.
>=20
> Sarian
>=20
> > From asbjorn.nordam@dif.dk Thu Feb 20 13:00:28 1997
> > Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 21:57:20 +0100
> > From: =3D?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=3DF8rn_Nordam?=3D <asbjorn.nordam@dif.dk>
> > To: "GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List" <gambia-l@=
u.washington.edu>
> > Subject: ? polygamy
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> > X-To: "'gambia'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
> > X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
> >
> > After reading the below mentionned statement of MKCorra, I come to
> > think, if polygamy is only practised as a husband having 2 or more
> > wifes. Can any of you tell me, if you know about a wife having 2 or m=
ore
> > husbands ? I=B4ve never met that, why not ? Is this a ridiculous ques=
tion
> > ?
> > Asbj=F8rn Nordam
> >
> > Quotation: "Again, I am not interested in making this a personal is=
sue
> > or a personal attack. polygamy has been and is an institution in
> > Africa. Social institutions take the longest to change. Many of
> > my relatives, my father, brothers, cousins, nephews, etc., have
> > been in polygamous relationships and some still are. It is a
> > problem, never the less, that impacts all of our lives and, in my
> > opinion, it is a hinderance to the progress of that continent of
> > ours. No statement on such a system could be too harsh; for our
> > beloved continent is at a crucial stage, at a life and death
> > stage. We either take a direction toward the world scenery or
> > establish permanency in being the only continent disconnected
> > from economic and social development. We can choose to take
> > responsibility and move forward or be permanent laggards.
> > Indeed, it is a difficult task to recognize a system that one
> > benefits from as wrong; however, it takes a courageous person, a
> > strong person, one of intense resistance to see the truth even
> > when it affects him or her. In this regard, I commend Abdou for
> > bringing this important issue up and having the courage to do so."
> >
SARIAN!!
JUST TO EXPAND A LITTLE BIT ON WHAT YOU HAVE JUST SAID.YOU ARE
ABSOLUTELY RIGHT,THERE IS INDEED A PRACTICE CALLED Polyandry,IN WHICH A=20
FEMALE OFFICIALLY TAKES UP MORE THAN ONE MALE MATE AT THE SAME TIME AND
BE RECOGNIZED BY SOCIETY.
AS YOU SAID,SOME TRIBES IN TIBET PRACTISE IT.BUT IN TIBET'S CASE THE
WOMAN SLEEPS ONLY WITH THE YOUNGER BROTHERS OF THE HUSBAND;NOT WITH THE
ELDER BROTHERS AND NOT WITH ANY OTHER MEN NOT RELATED TO THE HUSNBAND.
THE Toda AND Nayar TRIBES IN INDIA PRACTISE THE SAME THING LIKEWISE THE
WELL-KNOWN Sinhalese TRIBE IN Sri Lanka.IN THE CASE OF THE LATTER,THE
HUSBANDS MAY NOT COME FROM THE SAME FAMILY,BUT THE FIRST HUSBANDS SEXUAL
NEEEDS TAKES PRECEDENCE OVER THE OTHER HUSBANDS, AND THEY MUST ALWAYS
SEEK HIS PERMISSION WHENEVER THEY WANT TO SLEEP WITH THE WIFE.
ALMOST ALL THE SOCIETIES THAT PRACTISE Polyandry ARE MATRILINIAL,THE
CHILD BELONGS TO THE FAMILY OF THE WOMAN,AND IN ALMOST ALL SOCIETIES
THAT PRACTISE Polyandry THERE IS NORMALLY AN ACUTE SHORTAGE OF WOMEN
EITHER AS A RESULT OF FEMALE INFANTICIDE OR DESEASE THAT KILL WOMEN.
REGARDS BASSS
--=20
SZDD=88=F0'3Af=A8=03
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 21:47:24 -0500 (EST)
From: MJagana@aol.com
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND ISLAM, CULTURE
Message-ID: <970220214722_-1005543686@emout06.mail.aol.com>
In a message dated 97-02-18 00:19:00 EST, MJagana writes:
<< Subj: Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
Date: 97-02-18 00:19:00 EST
From: MJagana
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Dear Gambia L,
I just have a small contribution to give on this topic. I see very
interesting discussions in relation to Islam, rights of women, abusive men
and domestic violence.
I must say the main problem in the gambia ( mostly around the wold of
Islam), those who apply the laws ( the so called Learned), DO NOT DISTINGUISH
BETWEEN THE CULTURE ( IE TRADITION ) AND ISLAM.
I must say Islam is very protective of women, there is a whole SURAH IN THE
QURAN ( AL-NISA -WOMEN) which describe the right of a woman from marriage to
inheritance. If you guys read that surah you shall surely realise the
respeact Islam gives to women, contary to many believs.
I know that most of these believies are delevopped because of the way women
are treated (which is supported) by the traditional beleives.
For example in the gambia, if a woman has a problem with the husband and the
relation is turning abusesive. The most support she might get is " bear for
him he is your husband".
So i strongly believe we should separate what Islam lays down as a guide (in
the quran and the hadith) and what our cultures makes as belive.
>>
RESPECT TO ALL MUMS.
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Re: Domestic Violence - again -Reply
Date: 97-02-18 00:19:00 EST
From: MJagana
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Dear Gambia L,
I just have a small contributions to give on this topic. I see very
interesting discussions in relation to Islam, rights of women, abusive men
and domestic violence.
I must say the main problem in the gambia ( mostly around the wold of Islam),
those who apply the laws ( the so called Learned), DO NOT DISTINGUISH BETWEEN
THE CULTURE ( IE TRADITION ) AND ISLAM.
I must say Islam is very protective of women, there is a hole SURAH IN THE
QURAN ( AL-NISA -WOMEN) which describe the right of a woman from marriage to
inheritance. If you guys read that surah you shall surely realise the
respeact Islam gives to women, contary to many believs.
I know that most of these believies are delevopped because of the way women
are treated (which is supported) by the traditional beleives.
For example in the gambia, if a woman has a problem with the husband and the
relation is turning abusesive. The most support she might get is " bear for
him he is your husband".
So i strongly believe we should separate what Islam lays down as a giude (in
the quran and the hadith) and what our cultures makes as belive.
I PERSONAL BELIEVE THAT WOMEN HAVE A RIGHT IN THIS WORLD, AND I AM PROUD OF
MY DAD FOR GIVING MY MUM ALL THE SUPPORT IN THIER LIFES. FOR ALLOWING HER TO
RUN HER OWN BUSINESS FOR THE PAST TWENTY YEARS. ALTHOUGH A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE
AGAINST IT WHEN SHE FIRST STARTED.
MOMODOU A M JAGANA
MJagana@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 01:28:19 -0500 (EST)
From: ASJanneh@aol.com
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: "When the Military Rules"
Message-ID: <970221012818_-804398089@emout02.mail.aol.com>
GAMBIA-L:
I hope you find the following excerpts useful.
From:
"Concepts and Issues in Comparative Politics," p.140-141
"In most cases, the military takes governmental power with modest objectives
to remedy the immediate causes of its intervention. Once the military has
seized power, it sets up a political system of its own. As it does so, it
becomes more involved in politics and its objectives expand.....
Most military coups are nearly bloodless. Opponents to the military rarely
have the arms needed to resist the army; the army is unwilling to add to its
problems of establishing legitimacy by killing a lot of citizens. Of course,
there are exceptions...
The military usually works in close cooperation with the civil service...
Military leaders give the bureaucrats many of the high-level government
positions formerly held by politicians, including ministerial portfolios....
When the military rules, the country's resources are directed
disproportionately toward the armed forces in higher wages, better benefits,
new weapons, and more soldiers. This diverts funds that might otherwise have
been used to promote economic development. The military's vaunted
organizational efficiency and style are not easily transferred to the
economy. In spite of the military's belief in its own ability to stand aloof
from graft, officers appear to be as open to corruption as civilians."
WELL, WE MAY HAVE A CIVILIANIZED REGIME IN PLACE BUT FOR ALL PRACTICAL
PURPOSES IT'S STILL THE SAME JUNTA.
Salaam!
Amadou Scattred Janneh
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 03:19:10 -0500 (EST)
From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Domestic Violence, Polygamy...etc.
Message-ID: <9702210819.AA24282@st6000.sct.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Dear List members of GL,
Your educated contribution to this list on this topic is something that
has a touch of its own. We have heard from both sides of the arguments and
have learned and gained quite a bit of knowledge from the contributors.
Thank you to all of you.
Being a muslim who was born and raised in the Gambia, and now living in
the US, I read your questions and comments with great admiration. I am
neither a writer nor a scientist but a man who happens to have a great
obsession for the internet. However, I must admit that I enjoy being a
part of this group which brings people with common sense and vision together.
This topic of Domestic abuse and/or Polygamy has by far been the most
interesting topic ever discussed on this list as far as I can recall. I
would like to think that this is not the end of it as we still have not
come up with a clear concesus of it roots and causes. But I am delighted
to see that we are discussing ways to prevent rather cure the disease.
There are those who blame our cultural diversities and who claim that our
elders may have been responsible for the traditional values they carried
on from their elders. To this stance, I could not possibly comment on.
There are also those who accuse Islam, either by way of misinterpretation
from our elders or by our own misunderstanding of the Quran, for the
exploitation and oppression in our societies.
However, It is this second group of people that I would like to challenge
to bring forth a comprehensive and coherent framework of moral and ethical
standards that will be beneficial to all. I am not in any way directing
any personal attacks but simply speaking what I feel is logic and sense as
measured by our human standards. Anyone who identifies himself as
religious must also have a well-defined set of rules of moral and ethical
implications. Based on what has transpired, I feel that we are not
embracing religion to be the central core of our ethical and moral
obligations.
What we fail to see is that the Bible and the Quran are the words of Allah
who said in the Quran " You have been given from science and knowledge
nothing but so little". Now isn't that something we need to seriously
think about? Whenever we attempt to talk about Allah's words and try to
find reasoning and build what we think is right, we tend to make mistakes
as humans. There are some meanings of the Quran that Allah has ordered us
not to even question because HE has only given us a certain amount of
knowledge.
But my friends, most of us are only practising what I call "blind faith"
in which we do not question our religion in other to gain in-depth
knowledge of its philosopy, vison, values and laws. Islam for example,
teaches us to organize our entire life according to it. But if we have
doubts about it, then our liberty is at stake and we may never be true
believers. What then is the purpose of being a muslim with such doubts on
our minds? What will really be the need to believe in Islam and its
teachings?
Thus we need to be clear and honest to ourselves for a "cleaner" faith.
The Quran and the Bible are a pure form of medium of communication from
Allah to us. They are HOLY because they are originated from Allah and
contains many explanations that we may never realize in our time. However,
instead of erroneous teachings that have transgress from generations to
generations, a first- hand knowledge of the Quran and the Bible is very
essential to our understanding of Islamic and Christian laws. Hence, to
talk about certain laws of the Quran and passing justification and/or
explanation and then relating it to our own theories would almost not be
logical. It is very rare to find one single scientific fact that has not
been altered or changed by newer generations. The Quran has been here for
more almost 1400 years without alteration but man-kind has the ability to
err when dealing with our self-interests.
In conclusion, therefore, I would like to urge us to stop accusing each
other and start investigating the facts for ourselves. We should not be
disrespectful to our elders for their ways of lives. Instead, we should be
thankful to our parents for teaching us the Quran but we must also take it
upon ourselves to read and understand its meanings so that we can
interpret its values and laws first-hand. It is unfortunately a basic
failure of those among us who are educated and/or scholars, especially
from a religious viewpoint, to educate the masses the importance of
fundamental values. Since this is a discussion list as well as a learning
resource center, my recommendation is to get out an Arabic to English
dictionary and translate the words in Arabic for yourselves. Sometimes it
is a puzzle of connotations that must be assumed but soon you may find a
combination that fits together. Let's keep in mind that the Quran was
revealed to us for the purpose of learning and understanding the teachings
of Islam in our full spectrum of life. Therefore, we should treat it as a
tool for comprehensive guidance for human life and a problem-solving tool
for our lives in this world.
Thank you again.
Regards,
Moe S. Jallow
==============================================================================
mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 03:29:15 -0600
From: Tamsir Mbai <mba4224@etbu.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Family Reunion
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970221030900.2bef6cb6@etbu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
HEY OMAR, WHAT'S UP? I HOPE YOU ARE DOING FINE. IT WAS AN AMAZING SURPRISE
TO GET YOUR POSTING. I HAVEN'T SPOKEN TO YOU IN OVER 3 YEARS. WHAT'S BEEN
GOING ON WITH YOU, BAI, OUSMAN, BAI NYASS, AND YOUR MOM? HOW IS YOUR DAD? I
AM IN A LITTLE BIT OF A RUSH BECAUSE I HAVE TO TRAVEL TO DALLAS FOR THE
WEEKEND. I WOULD NOT BE BACK UNTIL MONDAY AFTERNOON. WHILE I'M AWAY I WOULD
NOT HAVE ACCESS TO THE NET, SO BE PATIENT IF YOU DO NOT RECEIVE A REPLY TO A
POSTING THAT YOU MAY EVENTUALLY HAVE MADE. KEEP IN TOUCH AND SAY HELLO TO
THE WHOLE FAMILY DOWN THERE.
WRITE TO ME DIRECTLY AT <TAMSIR@HOTMAIL.COM> AND GIVE ME YOUR DIRECT
MAIL ADDRESS. I TRIED <O.F.M'Bai@ics1.ac.uk> BUT IT WAS RETURNED. BEST
WISHES, OMAR................ IT'S TAMSIR.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 09:30:55 +0000
From: "M'BAI OF" <O.F.M'Bai@icsl.ac.uk>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Vice-Presidency Issue
Message-ID: <199702210931.JAA16464@netmail.city.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Amadou , I think you've got a remarkable sense of humour if you
know what I mean. Keep it goin'.
Regards ,
Omar F. M'bai.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 16:07:05 +0100
From: Omar Gaye d3a <omar3@afrodite.hibu.no>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Welcome to the Bantaba
Message-ID: <330DBA18.73A7@afrodite.hibu.no>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Adama Njie & all the new members, welcome to the "bantaba" and
goodluck!!
Omar
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 10:30:34 -0500 (EST)
From: "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Cc: msjaiteh@mtu.edu
Subject: Re: Domestic Violence, Polygamy...etc.
Message-ID: <199702211530.KAA02113@oak.ffr.mtu.edu>
Content-Type: text
Hi folks, I have noticed that combining domestic violence and polygamy
is not helping the discussion. Yes some polygamous marriages can
be easily referred to as abusive but it does not mean that all
polygamous marriages are. Also as some already mentioned, polygamy may
exist in Islamic societies but it does not have its origin in Islam.
Evidence of this can be found in the practice being in areas of Africa
yet to be influenced by Islam. Even the bible referred to the practice
up to the time of Solomon. Yes people are using the religion (Islam
being tolerant of it in the Qur'an ) to justify it. Can someone tell
us how and when monogamy became part of Christian life?
>From a theortical stand point, the practice could have started from a
purely biological reason (no offense!). The human animal without any
individual, family, societal and religious pressure would be happy to
be in a polygamous relation. Also, the need for human resources
(labor on farms and home) made it an advantage to have polygamous
relations. Coming from a family not blessed (or perhaps lucky) to come
from a polygamous relations, we were living at or below poverty line
because we had few helping hands on the farm. With me to school it was
in the words of my grandma "foolishness" on the side of my father to
think that he can feed the family single handed. Looking back at it I
am still of the opinion that my mum would be in greater physical
strength today if she had a maid (my father having a second wife) to
share the domestic work she had to do. I am sure my grandma (in her
grave) was not surprised to see that her son my dad died at such an
early age because of physical exshaution.
I guess a point I want to make is that we can become very good
judges if we have gone through a situation. Many of us (or all of
us) on this list are fortunate to be people of many worlds. We have
the previledge of learning from the past and present, from home and
abroard to be wise enough to see the the side effect of what I would
call a "painful but useful" solution to the propblem of disease and
poverty.
We can do a great deal for the cause if we convince those who practice
polygamy that the time to rely on many kids as security have passed. I
always believe that if someone knows all that you know that person
will think all that you think!
Malnding
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 11:12:24 -0500
From: Ceesay Soffie <Ceesay_Soffie@ems.prc.com>
To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: Domestic Violence, Polygamy...etc.
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=PRC%l=CRY1-970221161224Z-3212@mcl2.prc.com>
>----------
>From: Malanding S. Jaiteh[SMTP:msjaiteh@mtu.edu]
>Sent: Friday, February 21, 1997 10:30AM
>To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List
>Subject: Re: Domestic Violence, Polygamy...etc.
>
> Looking back at it I
>am still of the opinion that my mum would be in greater physical
>strength today if she had a maid (my father having a second wife) to
>share the domestic work she had to do.
Malanding, I hope you do not, really, believe in what you said above.
Please, an answer has to be that the husband take on some of the
responsibilities of the household. Are you saying that a second wife is
to be procured for the purpose of being a maid to the first wife? Are
you of the opinion that when the husband leaves in the morning for work
and comes home, he is to be waited on hand and foot? What do you think
the wife has been doing the whole while the husband was out working!
Most wives supplement what their husbands bring home. What most of our
men think is the manly thing to do is to go the "vou" after dinner or
lunch and think nothing of whether my wife is tired, sick, the kids need
a story told them, etc. We need you to assist in changing the mentality
that makes our mothers old before their time; which hasten their journey
to the grave. Please!
Soffie
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 15:54:04 GMT0BST
From: "N.JARJU" <CD6C6JNJ@swansea.ac.uk>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: ? polygamy
Message-ID: <19DB2CE2943@CCUGRAD2.SWAN.AC.UK>
The topic is interesting. However, I think the issue to be addressed
is beyond polygamy. Poverty and unemployment; underemployment and
lack of social facilities to keep one occupied leaves one looking for
some activity. With human contact as the only solution, we rap and
tend to love different people.
Under such circumstances, it is better to marry them rather than tip
and run. I hope we have a way out. It is better to marry my daughter
thank be-friend her only to satisfy your needs. Let us cut on the
number of children per women.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 12:17:40 -0500 (EST)
From: "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Cc: msjaiteh@mtu.edu
Subject: Re: Domestic Violence, Polygamy...etc.
Message-ID: <199702211717.MAA02327@oak.ffr.mtu.edu>
Content-Type: text
Soffie, I hope you will agree with me that family life in modern
peri-urban and urban Gambia does not represent tradition nor the whole
country. I am sure you will agree with me that labor in the Gambia is
strictly divided. There are traditional things that men do and
traditional things that women do. Even at farm level crops men grow
and those grown by women are different.Under the traditional setting,
men clear the bush at the end of the dry season, in all fields, grow
upland crops during rains, mend houses and compounds early dry season
and travel to other places (the Kombos or Cssamance) for petty
trading. This is a common traditional way of living for men. On the
side of women we come to see them do all the food preparation and
water fetching and working on rice fields and on and on the list goes
on.
A problem in todays family life and the apparent 'laziness' observed
in the male world are caused by changing situations. At the farm
level techology change, farm implements, crop types and values have
made mens task much more easy. They don't need to spend more time on
their fields, or mend houses and compounds (thanks to cement and
corrugated iron) and don't need to travel back and forth to the Kombos
(they can stay there instead) to the Kombos (they can stay there
instead). All these that kept traditional men busy are not there to
keep todays men busy. Unfortunately, the female folks of the society
are late in getting the technology change they need.Food processing
is not very much different from what it used to be 50 years ago. Hoewever, we
should not ignore that much changed in the women's world too. Water
taps and gridding machines, and local markets are gradually changing there
lives. As these changes (though I must admit slow to come) take effect
ther status will also change. I am pretty sure that my wives life is
certainly different from my poor mom's. I say that because I see them
all.
Coming to the issue of whether I mean what I say when I refered to the
physical conditions of some women and how that may have changed if there
were a second wife. Please excuse me if the use of maid was
misleading. I just don't know of any english word for a second wife
or a third. However, I do know that the physical existence of a second
wife in the traditional home is certainly an advantage. We may not
agree on the disadvantages which I am sure there lots of them.
Malanding
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 12:19:47 -0500 (EST)
From: "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Cc: msjaiteh@mtu.edu
Subject: GPDM address (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702211719.MAA02333@oak.ffr.mtu.edu>
Content-Type: text
Forwarded message:
> From msjaiteh@mtu.edu Thu Feb 20 14:31:39 1997
> From: "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
> Message-Id: <199702201931.OAA07564@cedar.ffr.mtu.edu>
> Subject: GPDM address
> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:31:35 -0500 (EST)
> Cc: msjaiteh@mtu.edu (Malanding S. Jaiteh)
> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24]
> Content-Type: text
> Content-Length: 230
>
> Hi folks,
> Can someone confirm for me the existence of a Gambian Pro-Democracy
> Movement based in the US. Also of interest to me is their
> address or any contact person. Please send responses to
>
> msjaiteh@mtu.edu
>
> Thanks
>
> Malanding
>
Thanks to all those who responded to my request.
Malanding
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 14:33:40 -0500 (EST)
From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: "When the Military Rules"
Message-ID: <9702211933.AA56468@st6000.sct.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
A.S Janneh wrote:
> GAMBIA-L:
> I hope you find the following excerpts useful.
>
> From:
> "Concepts and Issues in Comparative Politics," p.140-141
>
> "In most cases, the military takes governmental power with modest objectives
> to remedy the immediate causes of its intervention. Once the military has
> seized power, it sets up a political system of its own.
They have objectives all right but the "immediate cause of its
intervention" is normally staged in the name of economic reform and social
justice. But are these objectives ever achieved? Africa or more commonly
Sub-Saharan Africa did enjoy its first years of independence. But ever
since the first coup and the assassination of Togo's president, Olympio,
in 1963, African soldiers have turned into savages because they found out
how easy it was to topple a head of state. How ridiculous of them to kill
their own president just because he has managed to balaced the country's
budget but refused to increase their wages. Sounds pretty stupid!
Ever since then, we have seen the emergence of Africa's instability that
has happened no where else in the world. From the radical political
orientation of ex-presidents like Ethiopia's emperor Silassie to Uganda's
Amin "the Butcher", Africa has transformed itself into a continent that
has established its power on the strength of nothing but the gun.
The question again is: Why do we have so many coups even though the
consequences are almost always horrible (as in the case of Liberia)? Is it
because of our tribalistic and linguistic deversity....or is it because
the colonialists never erected a steady economic foundation for us?
Regards,
Moe S. Jallow
==============================================================================
mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 21 Feb 97 15:01:16 EST
From: "Dr. S. G. Kamara" <73244.2701@CompuServe.COM>
To: GAMBIA-L <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Jammeh's Cabinet Delay
Message-ID: <970221200115_73244.2701_FHO66-2@CompuServe.COM>
Hello All!
Some postings have asked for comments on the reasons
presented for President Jammeh's delay in forming a new
government.
The most important comment I have is a word of caution
regarding the statement that Parliament may be considering
changing the consitutional age stipulation of the 30-year
minimum to enable President Jammeh to appoint
Singhateh as Vice-President. This will be a very dangerous
precedent!
If Parliament should bow down to President Jammeh's
demands on this issue, then The Gambia's second
democratic experiment would clearly be a failure, at least
under President Jammeh. Here are my reasons:
1. The constitution is a sacred document, and it is
the supreme law of the land. This means that
even the President and Parliament are bound to
to adhere to it strictly without trying to tinker with
for their expediency. Even Parliament must not
be accorded the absolute power to alter any
constitutional stipulation without the approval/
ratification of the people.
2. In some constitutions, a change requires approval
by two different Parliaments, followed by the
ratification of the people in a general election or
referendum. This means that a significant amount
of time has to elapse with substantial debate to
ensure that no change is adopted in haste and
that it is for the good of the nation as a whole.
(Someone needs to enlighten us on the the
provisions of the Gambian constitution on this.)
However change that is adopted to ensure an
immediate appointment is no doubt very hasty.
3. The consitutional stipulation of the 30-year age
minimum for the Vice-President was made to
ascertain the maturity of the leaders as reflected
by age. If the precedent is set by changing it to
accomodate a 27-year old, what guarantee is
there not to change it in the future to accomodate
a younger age?
4. If this Parliament should allow this tinkering to
happen, then its effectiveness would be called to
question as it would have reduced its role to one
of rubber-stamping Presidential decrees.
5. If this tinkering should occur, there will no longer
be any guarantee that any part of the constitution
would not be changed similarly, or that the whole
"sacred document" will not be voted out of existence
altogether.
6. If Parliament assumes this power, then it is
tantamount to assuming dictatorial, rather than
democratic, powers.
WHAT THEN IS PRESIDENT JAMMEH'S CHOICE?
President Jammeh's choice is to appoint someone else
older than 30 years to assume the responsibility of Vice-
President. He may appoint Singhateh to the next highest
highest cabinet position with all the responsibilities and
benefits the law allows. If he chooses, in three years
when Singhateh would attain age 30, he could appoint
him to the V-P post.
The constitution of the new democracy must be respected.
Remember that expediency is no substitute for justice. And
when Parliament votes on a decision out of expediency, it
does not necessarily become law if it conflicts with the
constitution. This is where the courts (especially the
Supreme Court) come into play. Theoretically, every citizen
has the right to challenge a Parliamentary decision in court.
If the challenge is upheld by the courts (all the way up to the
Supreme Court in case of appeals), the decision is foiled.
In this case, if Parliament makes this decision, the opposition
party is the most likely group to take the issue to court. This
would be most unnecessary as it will bug down Gambia's
maiden democracy.
Regards,
Sheikh Gibril.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 14:35:48 +0000
From: "NJIE OMAR E" <964NJIE@alpha.nlu.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: "When the Military Rules"
Message-ID: <199702212037.MAA02910@mx5.u.washington.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Moe Jallow wrote:
> The question again is: Why do we have so many coups even though the
> consequences are almost always horrible (as in the case of Liberia)? Is it
> because of our tribalistic and linguistic deversity....or is it because
> the colonialists never erected a steady economic foundation for us?
>
To me, the answer is simple: GREED!!! Jammeh, like almost all over
coup leaders do it in the name of "eradicating corruption" only to eventually fill
their Swiss bank accounts i.e., the Ebou Jallow/Jammeh scandal.
Peace,
Omar
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 16:39:08 -0500
From: "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Jammeh's Cabinet Delay
Message-ID: <199702212139.QAA06527@spruce.ffr.mtu.edu>
Dr Kamara, what makes our (the Gambian) constitution different from others is that its tailor made for Jammeh and Friends to "feel at ease". It should not surprise to see the parliament ammending it to please Jammeh's choice .
One thing I always asked myself is what was so wrong with the old constitution that Jammeh found it necessary to revise it if the intension was to clean the country of corruption?
Another interesting issue is one raised by Lat. That is who is the real power house in the Gambia today? While one should not speculate, it would be nice to see the reactions when parliament refuses to bulge in (an unlikely situation!).
Malanding
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 97 17:12:48 EST
From: MKCORRA@VM.SC.EDU
To: GAMBIA-L@U.WASHINGTON.EDU
Subject: Vice Presidency Issue
Message-ID: <199702212213.OAA17046@mx4.u.washington.edu>
On the vise president issue: I do not think that the
government and the country should be occupied with such an issue.
A progressive country has to be a country of laws. Laws that
govern all citizens equally without exception. A country that
laws do not transcend above all will not be a progressive one.
The constitution of a country is suppose to be the supreme law of
the country; it is the document that all actions are governed by.
The new Gambia constitution was crafted with the full
participation of the AFPRC. If the constitution states that the
vise president of the country must be 30 years of age, if it is a
"constitution", there should not be much to say about that.
Provisions for amendments to constitutions are made so that
critical mistakes that have the potential to affect the whole
country and its people can be corrected. Amendments to
constitutions are rare occasions, as can be evidenced by limited
number of amendments made to the American constitution that is
200 years old.
Now, on the talked about amendment to the Gambian
constitution: It seems to be an absolutely absurd thought.
Changing the constitution for one person as if there is no other
Gambian capable of being a vise president seems to be insulting
to me, to say the least. If the interest of the country and the
Gambian people is what the current government has at heart, then
I think the government should be very cautious about this issue.
Singhateh should consider taking the credibility of that document
at stake and step aside. There are many other positions that he
can have and serve the country better. Does anyone on the list
know what Singhateh is saying about this issue? For I believe if
he has the interest of the country at heart he should be the one
argue for not tampering with the constitution.
I am fascinated by how important the constitution is to the
American people and how "living" by the constitution is crucial
to everyone. If actions of people in the highest positions in
the United States are found to be unconstitutional by courts,
such high officials just learn to live with; they do not attempt
to change the constitution. Certainly there are times that such
an amendment is put forth. However, they do not even go any
further than basic statements. I was intrigued by the following:
The US constitution says that the president of the United States
must be sworn in by noon, January 20th, after each presidential
election. This January 20th the president was scheduled to
attend many festivities that he was late for many. I was struck,
however, by the fact that for the constitutionally mandated
swearing in ceremony, the president made show he was on time.
The swearing in, may be a minute or a few seconds off, was
performed at noon, exactly. Had this been a constitutionally
mandated act and our president's schedule had been that cramped,
the swearing in ceremony would have had to wait. What I am
saying is that a country has to run by laws and the citizens have
to respect the laws of the country.
If the Gambian constitution can be amended in such a fashion
for individual interests then it is not a constitution. It is
not even a published essay; it is a working unpublished document.
This situation is really a joke and I the Jammeh government will
be better advised to abide by the constitution that they helped
draft. It will be foolish for the legislature to even consider
taking up such an absurd issue. The legislature and Singhateh
should be occupied with the business of the people and not with
Singhateh's. It would be sad if the constitution is amended for
such a reason at such an early stage of its inception. Of
course, African governments and leaders are known to be notorious
violators of laws instituted by themselves. I hope Jammeh and
his crew do take the courage to live by their own laws. We will
wait and see.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 23:17:18 +0000
From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Halifa's Letter to President Jammeh on 31 January, 1997
Message-ID: <19970221221611.AAA19678@LOCALNAME>
THE MIND WHICH REBELS AGAINST TRUTH MUST GROPE IN THE DARK
Letter To President Jammeh On The Need To Appoint Secretaries of
---------------------------------------------------------------------
State 31 January, 1997.
You would agree with me that the mind which rebels against truth
must grope in the dark. This is precisely the reason why it is
necessary for your government to pay heed to the wise counsel
whenever it springs forth.
It goes without saying that wether one likes it or not, historical
circumstances have put you at the helm of the state. In this respect,
your actions must affect all of us. We, therefore, have the
collective responsibility to scrutinize your actions and offer our
suggestions so as to give guidance to what could ultimately amount to
a misguided destiny if we fail to do what is to be done, when it is
to be done and how it is to be done. Wether we succeed or fail
depends on your attitude to criticisms.
Tyrants break the pens of critics and force them to cleave their
tongues at the roof their mouths just to silence them. In this way,
they become oblivious to the truth until it becomes too powerful to
resist. When such inevitable historical circumstances arises, tyrants
must also fall victim of their own follies.
The just and the wise, however, do pay heed to criticisms, the well
meant as well as the ill conceived. They rely on the former to
correct mistakes and the later to guard against them.
The issues we have been raising since your election may be
considered by those without foresight as trivial or something of
little political weight. However, common sense teaches us that it is
the seemingly trivial which we choose to ignore which develops into
the major political crises which we cannot ignore. It is, therefore,
necessary to take these issues very seriously if a new method of work
is to develop that would provide a foundation for a new point of
departure for the Second Republic.
Institutions such as the executive, the National Assembly and the
judiciary are structures of a State. Constitutions are architectural
sketch plans. Once the blue prints of the structures are honoured
with disregard the structures must become deformed. Bending the rule
providing for constituted authority leads to arbitrariness and
unpredictability in managing the affairs of government. What has been
proven with remarkable thoroughness is that ignoring what appears to
be trivival can have devastating impact.
Take the advice that was given in October before you were sworn in
on the basis of Decree 95. If this advice was taken and the swearing
postponed until after the National Assembly elections, there would
have been a smooth constitutional transition to the Second Republic.
Suffice it to say, the failure to adhere to wise counsel and not
appoint nominated members or convene the first sitting of the
NAtional Assembly until you were sworn in to defend the Constitution
has led to a constitutional crises where a Speaker is elected and
members of the National Assembly sworn in without any constitutional
basis.
Obviously, this did put the integrity of an institution into
question before it is constitutionally established. All these could
have been averted if the right steps were taken at the right
time. One would have thought that given the delicate situation you
are confronted with you would have established a task force to see
over the transition to a constitutional mode of governance.
It is evident that the Constitutional is a new instrument. It also
comes with specific tasks such as the enactment of Acts or laws
providing for the establishment of city councils, municipalities and
area councils, the office of Ombudsman or a National Council for
Civic Education are all to be established by Acts within six months
of the coming into force of the Constitution.
All these things require a time table which must be followed to the
letter if the Second Republic is to come into being as
constitutionally envisaged.
The points stated, of course, are of great concern. However, what
is of immediate importance is the establishment of a new Cabinet. The
executive branch of Government cannot function without a Cabinet. the
National Assembly cannot monitor the work of the executive without a
Cabinet. Section 73, subsection (1) of the Constitution states
categorically:
"There shall be a Cabinet which shall consist of the
President, the Vice President and Secretaries of State."
Section 74 states:
"The Vice President and Secretaries of State shall be collectively
responsible to the National Assembly for any advice given to the
President in Cabinet, and the Vice President and each Secretary of
State shall be accountable to the President and National Assembly for
the administration of the departments and other businesses of
Government committed to his or her charge." Here, it is clear that
the Secretaries of State are to be held accountable for the
administration of departments and other businesses of
government.
This is further buttressed in Section 77, subsection (3)
of the Constitution which states:
"The Vice President shall answer in the National Assembly for
matters affecting the President, and the President shall be entitled
to send a message to the National Assembly to be read on his or her
behalf by the Vice President."
Hence without a Vice President, who shall answer for matters
affecting the President in the National Assembly?
Section 77, subsection (4) adds:
"The Vice President or a Secretary of State shall, when requested by
the National Assembly, report to the National Assembly on any matter
concerning a department or other business of Government committed to
his or her charge, and shall be entitled to attend and speak in the
National Assembly whenever any Bill or other matter concerning such
business is being debated."
Hence, without Secretaries of State there will be a gulf between the
executive and the National Assembly.
What defies comprehension, however, is that you have suspended what
should have been your first executive responsibility after your
swearing in so as to put the constitution into force.
The impression is promoted that the former cabinet can perform the
functions of the Cabinet under the Second Republic. This is a
misconception. The transitional Provisions under the Schedule 2
states categorically that once the Constitution comes into force you
must appoint a new Secretary General and new Secretaries of State.
While the Transitional provisions state under paragraph 9 of
Schedule 2 that certain appointments made before the coming into
force of the Constitution shall be sustained, it states categorically
in paragraph 9, subparagraph 1 (c) that,
"nothing in this paragraph shall apply to the office of Minister or
Secretary General."
This simply means that your present Cabinet is
unconstitutional.
It is evident that the National Assembly have to display
tremendous creativity in order to work out rules, procedures or
methods of work which would enable them to evolve the new governance
environment envisaged by the Constitution. This is manifested in the
following declaration of intent in the Preamble:
"The functions of the arms of government have been clearly defined,
their independence amply secured with adequate checks and balances to
ensure that they all work harmoniously together toward our common
good."
At the moment, there appears to be a relapse into the old
mode of governance. If this persists instead of catapulting into a
new mode of governance as we enter the twenty first Century, we shall
only succeed in plunging deeper into what should have become a
defunct epoch.
The pen is a recorder of significant events which when
transformed into mind images may render significant lessons to guide
the affairs of people.
It is hoped that the lesson is clear. It is hoped that history
will have records that the correct path had not only been mapped out
but that it has also been followed. History shall indict all those
whose complacency lead to the retrogression of society rather than
its progress. The future is the judge.
Halifa Sallah
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 18:38:19 -0500
From: Raymond Trapp <rayt@digital.net>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: The Gambia
Message-ID: <330E31EB.2530@digital.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hello all,
My name is Ray and I live in Florida. I work at the Kennedy Space
Center. My job takes me to different countries in Europe and Africa.
One of those is The Gambia. NASA has utilized The Gambia as an
emergency landing site for the Space Shuttle. We have only been back
once since the coup. I will be going to The Gambia in March, for what I
hope to be a revitalization of our presence in the country.
I learned about this group from a friend of mine at Columbia. If anyone
could provide me with a brief overview of what is going on in the
country now I would appreciate it. I understand that there is an
Gambian hope page. Has anyone seen it?
Thanks to all,
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 17:55:21 -0600
From: Ndey Drammeh <NDRAMME@wpo.it.luc.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: foday musa suso -Reply -Reply
Message-ID: <s30de1a1.091@wpo.it.luc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Disposition: inline
Momodou Camara,
I have been informed that Foday Musa is currently in the Gambia and
should be back sometime next month. As soon as he gets back, I will
give you his telephone number if that's okay with him.
Enjoy the weekend.
Ndey Kumba
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 19:52:22 -0500 (EST)
From: ABALM@aol.com
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: New Member
Message-ID: <970221195221_1812486972@emout07.mail.aol.com>
Hi gambia-l
I tried to sign up a new member yesterday and i dont know if my mail wen
through, so at the risk of repeating myself i'll do it again.
His name is EAKS SANNEH, and he lives in Brikama, his e-mail address is :
106111.3451@compuserve.com
Please Tony or Abdou acknowledge if you got this message.
thank you
ABBA
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 21:05:45 -0600 (CST)
From: umjawara@cc.UManitoba.CA
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Domestic Violence, Polygamy...etc.
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970221100623.17135A-100000@castor.cc.umanitoba.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hello everyone,
thank you very much Moe for a very educative piece. I enjoyed it a
lot but I feel few points need to be clarified. You mentioned a verse
(or part of a verse) from the Quran that says "we have not given you in
knowledge and science except very little". I suppose you are speaking
from chapter 17, Al Isra (The Night Journey). It might be helpful to
give the entire verse, "They ask you, O! Muhammad, about ROOH (the soul),
say the knowledge of it is with my lord and we have not given you in
knowledge thereof except very little". This doesn't mean that ALLAH (God)
has not given mankind much knowledge. The Quran actually has given a
lot of scientific knowledge. I know of some great scientists embracing
Islam after discovering great accuracy of scientific knowledge in the
Quran. I'll give you a few examples, unfortunately I can't elaborate on
them now due to time constraints.
1- The Quran and Modern Embryology: You'll be surprised how the Quran
14 centuries ago very accurately describes the state and developments of
the foetus...these things were only proved after the invention of the
microscope.
2- The Quran and Cosmology: the Quran gives accurate description of the
speed of light to the nearest cm per second, which is known today as
2.9***** m/s.
3- The Quran mentions that "those who fear ALLAH among his servants are the
ULAMA' (the knowledgable or could also mean scientists)" Note "fear" in this
verse means those who are most God conscious that they would do very little
wrong
I will give you the list of references for these and much more from
the Quran and the Hadith if you're interested. I just want to mention at
this point that all these were revealed onto a Prophet that can neither
read or write.
Most of you have talked very well about domestic violence and how
this is a very serious crime in Islam. If you take the ultimate role
model for the Muslim for example, Prophet Muhamad, he never beat any of
his wives, not even once and neither did any of his companions. He was
quoted saying on several occasions that "the best of you (men) are the
best towards their women/family"
I have to quit now, Assalam (piece) on all of you.
Alieu.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 16:50:48 JST +900
From: binta@iuj.ac.jp
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: "When the Military Rules"
Message-ID: <199702220746.QAA29417@mlsv.iuj.ac.jp>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Moe wrote:
>The question again is: Why do we have so many coups even though the
>consequences are almost always horrible (as in the case of Liberia)? Is it
>because of our tribalistic and linguistic deversity....or is it because
>the colonialists never erected a steady economic foundation for us?
>
>
>Regards,
>Moe S. Jallow
>
Moe,
The answers for coups in Africa lie neither in the linguistic or
tribal differences nor in the much hated colonial legacy. Just look
around the world---Indonesia, China, Malaysia etc. etc. All diverse
and one time colonised/invaded! The problem is African selfishness.
It is a pity that our communalism is swallowed by our individualism.
What an irony!
Lamin.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 03:05:08 -0500
From: Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Vice Presidency Issue
Message-ID: <330EA8B4.70B4@earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
The crisis at hand now is one that I believe is the cumulation of events
in the last year that up until today may have seemed irrelevant. I
would like add to the discussion by sharing some thoughts and
information on these events in the hope that this may be of some
interest.
Last year, I had the opportunity to listen to the majority of then
Captain Jammeh's public speeches and noticed after a while that he was
pretty much consistent on the issue of his running for president. There
were a series of meetings with "Opinion Leaders" and a country wide tour
where the subject came up.
The basic theme at most these venues by those who attended was that
either Jammeh step down and run for president or elections should not
take place at all and the AFPRC should continue as they were. To that
end Jammeh answered with amazing regularity that he was not interested
in politics, that he did not want to run with "crooks" and that it was
up the "people" to decide.
Most people interpreted, "it was up to the people to decide" as "I don't
want run to run but if YOU really want me to, I will." I did not. I
thought that he was saying, "I am not running. Whether or not elections
are held, well, that's up to you." History now shows that I was
probably wrong but the current crisis causes me to wonder.
The problem now being faced with the Vice-presidency issue is just the
latest of many that could have been avoided had they did indeed intended
on staying on as civilians.
The clearest example of this is exactly the problem at hand now: The
Constitution.
Although the Constitution was supposed to be (and to large extent is)
based on the recommendations of the Constitutional Review Committee
(CRC), some of the recommendations were not included in the draft and
the revised version that is now the supreme law of the land.
The CRC toured the country canvassing opinion on what was wrong with the
older, suspended 1970 Republican Constitution and based on that made
their recomendations which, for example, included a provision that a
president can only serve two terms. This was in fact a confirmation of
what resulted from an earlier tour of the National Consultative
Committee(?) (NCC) in Dec. '94 - Jan. '95 where a countrywide
canvassing of opinion also took place to find out whether the AFPRC
should rule for two or four years. In that more public tour it was made
clear by the majority of people who attended the meetings convened by
the NCC that our former president had stayed in power for long and that
future presidents should not be allowed to do so.
After, the CRC's recommendations were submitted to Council, a draft was
issued for public debate that did not include that provision. Questions
were raised on this issue in public forums that included the civic
education programmes on the various radio stations and even The Gambia
TV. The members of the Provisional Independent Electoral Commission
(PIEC) and government officials made the point of stating clearly that
the provisions in the Draft Constitution were not "written in stone" and
that recomendations for changes could be submitted to a department in
the Min. of Justice and that basic public opinion would also be
considered in the drafting of the final version that would be put up for
vote in the Referendum in August.
The term limit provision was never included in face of what seemed like
overwhelming support for it. This was clear example of the AFPRC
manipulating the constitution. The point I'm trying to make is that at
the time Singhateh was Vice-Chairman and if AFPRC really wanted to
continue as civilians they could have omitted the clause about the age
restriction for the Vice-president then but failed to do so. Either
they did not plan on staying in power at that time or they were not
sensible enough and they lacked basic foresight for their own good.
Of course perhaps at that time, it was thought that Singhateh would
continue as a member of the armed forces and thus not be permitted by
law to become Vice-president. If that was the case then the present
situation is further complicated because it confirms what some perceived
was crisis later on that year.
Prior to the Council members actual retirement from the Army before
Jammeh was officially nominated by the APRC as their presidential
candidate, rumours were that then Captain Singhateh did not want to
resign. In fact as the story goes, only Jammeh was supposed to resign
in accordance with the electoral decree that states that an official of
the Armed Forces could not be nominated as a candidate for elected
office. Indeed, word from sources at the Printing Dept. was that the
initial programmes for the ceremony marking his retirement that were
already in the press stated clearly that only Jammeh was due to
"retire."
People say that the event that changed things was the UDP rally/lauching
in Brikama the weekend before where something like a shocking 70,000
people turned up in support of Lawyer Darboe. This supposedly scared
the living daylights out of the AFPRC Chairman. When his official
retirement documents were brought to his office for his signature the
day before the ceremony and two days before 'Nomination Day', it is said
that he demanded that all the other council members join him in
resigning or he would not sign anything. *Perhaps* this was out of fear
that in the face of a possible defeat he may be "hung out to dry" all by
himself in a counter coup by his comrades.
Having been "pushed" to resign from the Army and ineligible to continue
as "No. 2", Singhateh's status and power was and continues to be in
limbo. It would seem as though Jammeh has no choice but to put his
entire weight in the effort to amend the constitution as a compromise
for having somewhat forced his former 'Vice' out his cherished position
in the Gambia National Army. I don't believe he would see
'reinstalling' Singhateh in the Army as a possible resolution of the
problem because of the potential risks such an action could bring vis a
vis another coup against himself.
As an important side note, we should also consider the role of retired
Captain Yankuba Touray, the former 'original' AFPRC member responsible
for the transition programme, Min. of Lands and Local Government and, I
believe, APRC Party Chairman. He led the move for Jammeh to run for
President in the late stages of the transition period and actually
chaired the 'meeting of all meetings' with the so-called "Opinion
Leaders" when Jammeh finally succumbed to the their wishes to run. Word
is back home he has been making it clear that he should be
Vice-president (he may even be older than Jammeh) and given his
position, he must hold considerable power within the party.
It will be interesting to hear how things turn out but I would argue
that all this is evidence that a crisis is at hand. Apart from that,
the current problem also leaves the government in a state of limbo, as
Halifa Sallah stated in his letter to the President, which could lead to
serious stagnation. I'm sure you would all agree, this not the way to
launch a Republic.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 97 00:54:59 PST
From: MAKE THAT VISION A REALITY <ABARROW@rr5.rr.intel.com>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: career opportunity
Message-ID: <9702220854.utk19132@RR5.intel.com>
From: 4703::"devries@warlock.eece.unm.edu" "Ronald DeVries" 21-FEB-1997 13:02:57.88
To: abarrow@rr5.rr.intel.com
CC:
Subj: Full-time Job Opportunity with Maxwell Technologies
Abdou,
The work would be on a contract with Air Force Phillips Lab at Kirtland
AFB. Work involves design of microprocessor-based control circuits.
Analog and digital electronics and programming in C and C++ required.
Knowledge of 8051 microcontrollers and PIC 16-bit microcontrollers and
well as experience with programming DSP processors is a plus.
BS in EE or other tech area or lots of experience is required.
Contact: Norm Anderson
Phone: 846-7895
E-mail: andersnc@maxwell.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 06:42:09 -0300 (ADT)
From: Cherno Waka Jagne <C_JAGNE@tuna.stmarys.ca>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: domestic violence, polygamy
Message-ID: <449D2128C1@tuna.stmarys.ca>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Not so long ago, PA-MAMBUNA asked:
>The question now is: WHO SHOULD BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR THE
>SO CALLED DOMESTIC VIOLENCE THAT ARISE BETWEEN ME AND MY WIFE?
I think three parties are more or less to blame in situations
like this: the husband, with the yea-I'ma-work-hard-make-me-
some-loot-buy-me-a-slave--er-wife-and-kick-back attitude; the
wife, who agrees to a marriage for all the wrong reasons; and
invariably the parents, who don't seem to realize that they
are NOT the ones getting married...
OK, maybe I'm being a tad naive and irrational here, but
realize my point. In marriages that turn out this way, more
often than not, someone (or both) was not entirely honest or
realistic about their expectations. Conversely, they might
just conceptualize a marriage differently.
Outlandish as it might sound, maybe a bid for marriage should
involve each party unequivocally stating exactly what they
expect in partnership, and just what their understanding of
such partnership is. Such a marriage, based on a mutual
understanding of what is involved, and anticipated compromises
among other things, might save many a broken heart, a broken
home, or not too sarcastically a broken jaw!
=====================
Cherno Waka Jagne.
St. Mary's University
Halifax, N.S.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 23:49:47 JST +900
From: binta@iuj.ac.jp
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: domestic violence, polygamy
Message-ID: <199702221444.XAA02040@mlsv.iuj.ac.jp>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
>I think three parties are more or less to blame in situations
>like this: the husband, with the yea-I'ma-work-hard-make-me-
>some-loot-buy-me-a-slave--er-wife-and-kick-back attitude; the
>wife, who agrees to a marriage for all the wrong reasons; and
>invariably the parents, who don't seem to realize that they
>are NOT the ones getting married...
>
>OK, maybe I'm being a tad naive and irrational here, but
>realize my point. In marriages that turn out this way, more
>often than not, someone (or both) was not entirely honest or
>realistic about their expectations. Conversely, they might
>just conceptualize a marriage differently.
>
>Outlandish as it might sound, maybe a bid for marriage should
>involve each party unequivocally stating exactly what they
>expect in partnership, and just what their understanding of
>such partnership is. Such a marriage, based on a mutual
>understanding of what is involved, and anticipated compromises
>among other things, might save many a broken heart, a broken
>home, or not too sarcastically a broken jaw!
>
>=====================
>Cherno Waka Jagne.
>St. Mary's University
>Halifax, N.S.
>
>
>Mr Jagne,
I tend to agree with you except that whenever man becomes the object
of study it is the case that both the object and the subject are one
and the same. You can see where I am going. That study remains
inconclusive! No wonder we have these social 'sciences'! What baffles
me is the (in)stability of marriages in say India, The Gambia and
US. Note that I am moving from one extreme to the other..from
arranged marriages, a hybrid type, and to consensual. Or did I miss
your point? Just a little thought.
Lamin.
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 16:37:26 GMT
From: AISHA CAMARA <Camara@cardiff.ac.uk>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Introductory Note.
Message-ID: <77E70FE72B2@pabio-class.cf.ac.uk>
Hello Everyone!
My name is Aisha Camara commonly known as Grace Camara. I am
presently at the University of Wales, Cardiff doing an MSC. in
Population Studies.
I must say that I am enjoying the debate that is going on with
regards to Polygamy and Domestic Violence, especially Domestic
Violence which is a topical issue.I am happy to note that there are
Gambians out there who are concerned about this issue.
Cheers to everyone!!!
Regards
Aisha
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 17:38:21 GMT
From: "Per E. Grotnes" <perg@nfh.uit.no>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: a lightheade comment on the poly-situatrion
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970222185603.27371cbe@draugen.nfh.uit.no>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I probably should not add to the confusion about many wives(husbands)
Actually I opt for the polygamy myself, out of egoistical reasons. But I
would like to point out that in the socalled christin communitites a far
more insincere form of poly-whatever exists. Men tend to have lovers on the
side, and certainly women do a little philandering at times. I have no
proper reference to it, but it is maintained that about 30% of children born
in the western hemisphere are not the offspring of their presumed father.
Monogamy is a nice idea maybe.
Biologically, the mothers should find various attractive fathers for their
children, as this would improve the chance of at least one good genetical
mix. The married men on the other hand would not like this as they are
supposed to protect and feed their own offspring to secure their genes in
the next generations.
It should therefore be the women that should be promiscuous, while the men
should be jealous of their women.
Please don't take the above too seriously, but it may start some persons
rethinking their positions.
I asked a gambian woman that is the second wife of a friend of mine why she
married my friend and did not find a single man for herself. She laughed and
said she could not afford it. Now she could share the expenses of a husband
with another woman, and she did not need a man more than thrice a week
anyhow. Surely she was joking with me, but still??
I have noticed that it is mainly women who do consistent work in The Gambia
(my wife would say that this not very different from the norwegian situation
), and are often the real breadwinner of the houshold. In a macho world this
easily leads to an inferiority complex for men. This in turn may well
express itself as physical violence.
Now physical violence against wives (and children) signals that the men feel
inferior. You dont beat up someone you feel superior to. It might be that
the stress that muslim custom put on the man to be the provider and the
master at home makes it easy to use force as a means of authority. That this
is a loss of face in some cultures (viz. the socalled christian societies)
may be less so in others. Still many cases of abuse are every year reported
in the scandinavian countries. It is not a specific gambian problem and
psycologists everywhere are pretty concered about it.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 19:13:12 +0000
From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: New Member
Message-ID: <19970222181214.AAA16164@LOCALNAME>
Gambia-l,
EAKS SANNEH has been added to the list. Welcome to Gambia-l Eaks,
please send an introduction of yourself to the list. We look forward
to you contribution.
Regards
Momodou Camara
*******************************************************
http://home3.inet.tele.dk/mcamara
**"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's
possible and suddenly you are doing the impossible"***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 15:20:35 -0500 (EST)
From: "Fatou N'Jie" <gs01fnn@panther.Gsu.EDU>
To: "N'Della N'Jie" <ndella@iastate.edu>,
Victoria Lynn Miller <gs03vlm@panther.Gsu.EDU>,
Subject: Forwarded mail.... (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970222151919.6307C-100000@panther.Gsu.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
********************************************
* Fatou N'Jie *
* Decision Sciences Department *
* Georgia State University *
* *
* Email: fanjie@gsu.edu *
* http://www.gsu.edu/~gs01fnn/index.html *
********************************************
A confused boy asked his mom: "Is God male or female?"
Mom thought about a minutes and replied. "He is both male and female."
The boy got more confused. "Is God black or white?"
Mom answered. "He is both black and white."
Boy asked again. "Is He gay or straight?"
Mom got concerned look on her face and thought about it a minute, but
she answered again. "He is both gay and straight."
Boy's face brightened as he realized the truth and he exclaimed.
"Is God Michael Jackson??!"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 23:19:55 -0500 (EST)
From: MJagana@aol.com
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: NEW MEMBER
Message-ID: <970222231954_-1909630271@emout19.mail.aol.com>
Dear Momodou Jallow,
please enlist S Barry, e-mail SBarry1035@aol.com
thank you
mj
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 01:09:09 -0500 (EST)
From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Thermodynamics and Life (fwd)
Message-ID: <9702230609.AA28628@st6000.sct.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
A thermodynamics professor had written
a take home exam for his graduate students. It had
one question:
Is hell exothermic or endothermic?
Support your answer with a proof.
Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs
using Boyle's Law or some variant. One student,
however wrote the following:
First, we postulate that if souls exist, then
they must have some mass.
If they do, then a mole of souls can also have
a mass. So, at what rate are souls moving into
hell and at what rate are souls leaving? I think
that we can safely assume that once a soul gets
to hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls
are leaving.
As for souls entering hell, lets look at the
different religions that exist in the world today.
Some of these religions state that if you are not
a member of their religion, you will go to hell.
Since there are more than one of these religions
and people do not belong to more than one religion,
we can project that all people and all souls go to
hell.
With birth and death rates as they are, we can
expect the number of souls in hell to increase
exponentially.
Now, we look at the rate of change in volume in
hell. Boyle's Law states that in order for the
temperature and pressure in hell to stay the same,
the ratio of the mass of souls and volume needs
to stay constant.
So, if hell is expanding at a slower rate than
the rate at which souls enter hell, then the
temperature and pressure in hell will increase
until all hell breaks loose.
Of course, if hell is expanding at a rate faster
than the increase of souls in hell, than the
temperature and pressure will drop until hell
freezes over.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
It was not revealed what grade the student got.
What grade would you give?
Peace!
Moe S. Jallow
==============================================================================
mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 01:56:54 -0500 (EST)
From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Forwarded Mail.....(fwd)
Message-ID: <9702230656.AA09950@st6000.sct.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Fatou N'jie wrote:
>A confused boy asked his mom: "Is God male or female?"
>Mom thought about a minutes and replied. "He is both male and female."
>The boy got more confused. "Is God black or white?"
>Mom answered. "He is both black and white."
>Boy asked again. "Is He gay or straight?"
>Mom got concerned look on her face and thought about it a minute, but
>she answered again. "He is both gay and straight."
>Boy's face brightened as he realized the truth and he exclaimed.
>"Is God Michael Jackson??!"
Fatou, I must admit that was a pretty good one. I happened to be a great
fan of Michael Jackson for his contribution to music and entertainment
around the globe (maybe that's why I liked it). Except for being God, I
have always wondered if Michael is black or white and/or gay or straight.
Now, here is a similar one. I hope that you do not find the language too
explicit in nature. Please, excuse!
A few days after Christmas, a Mother working in her kitchen was
listening to her son playing with his new electric train set in the
livingroom.
She heard the train stop and then heard her son say, "All of you
sons-of-****es who want off, get the hell off now, 'cause this is the
last stop. And, all of you sons-of-****es who are gettin' on, get your
asses in the train 'cause we're leaving!"
The Mother went in and told Little Johnny. "We don't use that kind of
language in this house. Now, I want you to go to your room for two
hours. When you come out, you may play with your train, but I want you
to use nicer language."
Two hours later, Little Johnny came out of the bedroom and resumed
playing with his train. Soon the train stopped and the Mother heard her
son say, "All passengers who are disembarking the train, please remember
to take all of your belongings with you. We thank you for riding with us
today, and we hope that you will ride with us again soon. For those of
you just boarding, we ask that you stow all of your hand luggage under
your seat or in the overhead racks. Remember that there is no smoking
except in the Club Car. We hope that you will have a pleasant and
relaxing journey with us today. For those of you who are pissed off
because of the two hour delay, please see the **** in the kitchen."
Peace!
Moe s. Jallow
==============================================================================
mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 02:40:01 -0500 (EST)
From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Alieu Jawara's message
Message-ID: <9702230740.AA32796@st6000.sct.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Mr. Jawara, you wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> thank you very much Moe for a very educative piece. I enjoyed it a
> lot but I feel few points need to be clarified. You mentioned a verse
> (or part of a verse) from the Quran that says "we have not given you in
> knowledge and science except very little". I suppose you are speaking
> from chapter 17, Al Isra (The Night Journey). It might be helpful to
> give the entire verse, "They ask you, O! Muhammad, about ROOH (the soul),
> say the knowledge of it is with my lord and we have not given you in
> knowledge thereof except very little". This doesn't mean that ALLAH (God)
> has not given mankind much knowledge. The Quran actually has given a
> lot of scientific knowledge. I know of some great scientists embracing
> Islam after discovering great accuracy of scientific knowledge in the
> Quran. I'll give you a few examples, unfortunately I can't elaborate on
> them now due to time constraints.
Thank you for your response. You are abosolutely right, I was referring to
chapt. 17. I apologize for the brief summary I provided. I have always
been looking muslim discussion groups where i can direct specific
questions. Do you know of any?
> I will give you the list of references for these and much more from
> the Quran and the Hadith if you're interested. I just want to mention at
> this point that all these were revealed onto a Prophet that can neither
> read or write.
I am very much interested and would appreciate any information you can
provide me. If you need to e-mail me any files, you may use my personal
addresses below.
Mr. Jawara, I was recently asked a question by a friend who had just
converted to
Islam from Christianity. I helped him get an English translation of the
Qur'an and as he read over it he had some questions that I was not able to
answer. Can you help answer the question (1 of 2)? If not, can you direct
me to a listserver that would be more appropriate?
Here is the question:
In chapter 15, verse 16 (and chapter 21, verse 31) mountains are
referred to as holding the earth steady, preventing it from shaking. (A
footnote refers to chapter 78, verse 7 where the mountains are compared
to "pegs"). From a scientific point of view this appears to be a
problem since mountains do not prevent the crust from moving over the
mantle. In fact, it is because of this movement and the resulting
earthquakes that mountains form. In what sense then is it meant that
the mountains are "standing firm, lest it should shake with them"? They
don't seem to be standing firm. They are pushed up, the rocks come
tumbling down, in some cases, the strata which were originally
horizontal are now standing vertically - IIIIII - like that.
----------
Your response will be very much appreciated.
Regards,
Moe S. Jallow
==============================================================================
mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
End of GAMBIA-L Digest 56
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gambia-l: LOG9702E - Digest 56
