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Momodou
Denmark
11512 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Jun 2021 : 21:55:23
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GAMBIA-L Digest 5
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Subscriptions ...
by binta@iuj.ac.jp
2) Halifas letter (continuation)
by momodou@inform-bbs.dk (Momodou Camara)
3) The July 22nd Movement: political party or what?
by "Roddie L. Cole" <rcole@ced.berkeley.edu>
4) re: Subscriptions ...
by "Roddie L. Cole" <rcole@ced.berkeley.edu>
5) Fwd: Re: Halifas letter (continuation)
by momodou@inform-bbs.dk (Momodou Camara)
6) new member
by ABDOU <at137@columbia.edu>
7) Re: Fwd: Re: Halifas letter (continuation)
by ABDOU <at137@columbia.edu>
8) Forwarded posting to an error message
by "A. Loum" <tloum@u.washington.edu>
9) Re: Fwd: Re: Halifas letter (continuation)
by momodou@inform-bbs.dk (Momodou Camara)
10) re: The July 22nd Movement: political party or what?
by "Dana Ott" <dott@usaid.gov>
11) Re: Subscriptions ...
by MANSALA@aol.com
12) Re: The July 22nd Movement: political party or what?
by "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
13) Re: new member
by Gabriel Ndow <gndow@auc.edu>
14) Re: new member
by MANSALA@aol.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 18:13:41
From: binta@iuj.ac.jp
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Subscriptions ...
Message-ID: <199602250911.SAA02968@mlsv.iuj.ac.jp>
Hi,
I could remember raising a question on this very issue some time ago.
Now that we have it right on our hands it should be finalised once and
for all. I agree with most of the people who have already expressed
their opinions on it. Let us go by equity and assume that all people
are true contributors to Gambia-l until found otherwise. To my mind,
this is the only option we have,and doing anything else would not only
undermine the much cherished ideal of free speech, but also compromise
the very fabrics on which Gambia-l was established.
I also say welcome to Dana and I hope that we will learn a lot from
each other, particularly how other nationals feel about the day-to-day
happenings in our country. On the issue of the July 22nd Movement, I
would say that it is a `de facto' political party created and being
nurtured by the AFPRC and its cohort to eventually assume the running
of the country under the guise of democracy. As the situation subsists
today, unless Gambians take adequate measures we may have to do with
Jammeh or his like for the next 10 years. All the activities of AFPRC
bear the hallmark of political rhetorics and it is increasing in
momentum. However, if I may throw the question back to Dana, I may
ask: What do you think about the AFPRC in general, and particularly
vis-a vis the `sheduled' elections?
Hi all of you. How is the weather out there, aggressive? It is quite
cold over here!
Bye!
Lamin.
------------------------------
Date: 25 Feb 1996 14:59:32 GMT
From: momodou@inform-bbs.dk (Momodou Camara)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Halifas letter (continuation)
Message-ID: <151322590.11083290@inform-bbs.dk>
Hi Gambia-l!
Here is the continuation of Halifa Sallah's letter to the AFPRC.
Continued from my last mail to the list.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
In our view, the no election agenda is not likely to win the
AFPRC international credibility. In short, while the international norm
states that people should determine their manner of government, it also
adds that it should be through secret ballot. Hence, no respectable
government is choosen by people raising placards.
Suffice it to say, to have an election or no election referendum
will raise questions of credibility when people can simply vote for the
government they want to to stay in power through free and fair elections.
The AFPRC has a programme. It has a platform. It can simply transform
itself into a party and tell people that if they are happy with its work so
far they should vote for it to continue. If the people vote for it, it
would have a popular and stable base to implement its programme. This is
the best way.
It is the best way because a national consultative excercise has
been done and the transition programme calls for elections which results
not in the consultation of a few but a broader consultation in secret. It
may be envisaged that if the transition programme is not adhhered to all
forces which had been avoiding isolation for opposing a peaceful transition
would be able to say that this is what was expected; that criticism of
Jawara for not holding free and fair elections was not meant to rectify a
system and put in place a free and fair voting system.
Common sense teaches that no elections is not a way of rectifying
elections with question marks. If the AFPRC wants credibility, it should
adhere to the programme. It should bear in mind that there are hawks and
doves in the international community. The hawks do not even want the AFPRC
to carry out the transition programme succesfully. They wanted
international sanctions to have been intensified from the very begining and
promote intervention. The doves are capable of wavering from hardened
position when they have doubts and compromising position when they see
progress. AFPRC should continue to earn the confidence of such people.
The AFPRC should go on with its programme with determination for the
doves to give it support. However, if it does not proceed with the
transition programme, all forces are likely to be set loose. They will have
the hawks to back them. Psycological warfare may start. All sorts of
information will be used to discredit it. Since the AFPRC is the government
of the day while Jawara's regime is the overthrown government, one could
even envisage him being allowed to form a government in exile.All forms of
negative propaganda could be utilized to try to devide the Gambian people.
You are aware, as much as we do, of the type of propaganda just before the
November 11 incident. This is why the AFPRC was warning the Gambian people
about Rwanda. The AFPRC should not win a battle just to lose the war
because of adopting a wrong programme of action. Many people cling to
success but few people take a stand in case of adversity. The Council
should ask itself how many people who are promoting a "no election" agenda
will be ready to defend the country in case of adversity. Will it win the
confidence of its neighbours like Abdiu Diouf with "no elections" agenda.
Four years from now The Gambia will enter the twenty first
Century. If democratic structures are built now which will stand the test
of time, those who do it will earn the love and respect of generations yet
unborn. This is the time to put a genuine electoral system in place. This
is the time to give the people enlightenment so that they will start to
participate in determining their destiny. This is the cross road. We can
move foward with the 21st Century or fall back to the Century when Africans
have so far failed to carve a dignified place under the sun but had been
consigned among the most wretched of the earth.
This is the time to be faithful to the country and her people. This
is the time for our hearths to beat in unision with the rythms of the
National Anthem:
Let justice guide our actions
Towards the common good.
And join our diverse people
To prove man's brotherhood.
To conclude, it is necessary to ask: What is life but a journey from birth
to death. It can be a journey with or without purpose. To serve humanity is
a purposeful journey. To betray humanity is a purposeless journey.
What is the human being but flesh and bones. What is his or her
significance if he or she spreads suffering and mischief on earth? The
noble thing is to be remembered for the joy we have brought to our people
rather than the havoc and misery we have caused.
We trust that you will give our concerns the consideration due them.
Then if the AFPRC happens to be elected to run the country in a free and
fair elections, if it so desires, it will lead with honour. If it loses or
decides not to participate, it will go with honour.
Please, accept the assuranceces of my highest consideration.
Halifa Sallah
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The entire letter can be read in FOROYAA issue of 8-15 February, 1996.
Momodou Camara
E-mail:- Momodou@Inform-bbs.dk;Internet
--- OffRoad 1.9n registered to Momodou Camara
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 11:40:23 -0800 (PST)
From: "Roddie L. Cole" <rcole@ced.berkeley.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Cc: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: The July 22nd Movement: political party or what?
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.90.960225112139.9570A-100000@chabot.ced.berkeley.edu>
Tony is right in asserting that (with the exception of Zambia and a few
other countries) regime change through the ballot box is not the norm
in Sub-Saharan Africa. Numerous factors can be cited the most
important being the failure to distinguish between "political party"
and "state". In Africa, the party in power IS the state. Thus, it
utilizes its access to state apparatuses to ensure regime
longevity and to destroy its opponents.
There is also the "winner take all" approach to African politics.
The Opposition in the west may form a shadow government and
otherwise maintain some public profile. In Africa, at best you're
harassed and marginalized (Kaunda in Zambia), at worse imprisoned or
killed.
I therefore would throw the question back to Dana. If democratic
elections are clearly grounded on a grossly
uneven playing field, how do we explain the US-AID (and other bilateral
donors) emphasis on "signs of democracy" (such as elections) as opposed to
more deeply grounded democractic processes. (I am not impying that
your view coincides with theirs: but as you work with USAID,you may
have a more evolved sense of their approach to the governance issue)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 11:45:14 -0800 (PST)
From: "Roddie L. Cole" <rcole@ced.berkeley.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Cc: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: re: Subscriptions ...
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.90.960225114141.9570B-100000@chabot.ced.berkeley.edu>
have more to do with potential repercussions and actions taken in The
Gambia for free speech (by Gambians) in the US.
------------------------------
Date: 26 Feb 1996 19:16:25 GMT
From: momodou@inform-bbs.dk (Momodou Camara)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Fwd: Re: Halifas letter (continuation)
Message-ID: <3641769950.17142331@inform-bbs.dk>
Forwarded by Momodou Camara.
---forwarded mail START---
From: Malanding S. Jaiteh,msjaiteh@mtu.edu,Internet
To: Momodou Camara
Date: 26.02.96 19:34
Subject: Re: Halifas letter (continuation)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
First, I commend My Sallah for the reconcilliatory stance he took in
this letter against Jammeh and his colleagues. I home the message is
well understood by them and adhered to.
However, we may over optimistic to assume that these fellows would
leave office without struggle. For they do not know such.
My point of disaggreement is that the AFPRC should not be allowed to
contest in any election even if they form a party for a number of reasons.
1)They have in the past shown little respect for the constitution of the
Gambia. They were, at the time of joining the army sworn to protect and
defend our constitution. They fail to do just that when they install
themselves in power with the barrel of the gun and suspended the same
constitution they plegde to protect.
2) they have always played foul since coming to
power, detentions without trial, unexplained deaths including ht
that of a cabinet minister.
Until they become law abiding citizens they should not be allowed to
assume any puplic office much more executive office.
3) By letting them participate in any future elections we will only
help them claim legitimacy.
The really is that even though jammeh and his collegues are in power
without opposition they are still an illegitimate government. There is
no provision in our constitution that allows groups to take it upon
themselves to overthrow governments (can a someone correct me on
that if I am wrong) if they go wrong.
Before I go, a big welcome to our newest members and ofcourse I hope everone
had a wonderful KORITEH!
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Subject: Re: Halifas letter (continuation)
To: momodou@inform-bbs.dk
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 13:15:14 -0500 (EST)
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In-Reply-To: <151322590.11083290@inform-bbs.dk> from "Momodou Camara" at Feb
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 16:44:09 -0500 (EST)
From: ABDOU <at137@columbia.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: new member
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960226164210.12423B-100000@bonjour.cc.columbia.edu>
Hi Latjor,
Can you please include Bamba in the list. I will ask him to send
his intro.
His address is above.
-Abdou.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 26 Feb 96 12:29:38
From: Bamba NGum <Bamba_NGum@cch.com>
To: ABDOU <at137@columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: DISCONTINUATION
Hi Abdou,
It's been a while since we get in touch. I've been so busy lately and, I can
hardly find time away from my work.
Well, I just want to be added in your new mail listing. Hope to here from you
soon.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 16:57:48 -0500 (EST)
From: ABDOU <at137@columbia.edu>
To: Momodou Camara <momodou@inform-bbs.dk>
Cc: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Halifas letter (continuation)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960226164902.12423D-100000@bonjour.cc.columbia.edu>
Hi,
Mr Camara, I only wish there were more Gambians like you! You are
right; the issue is legitimacy. Jammeh and his thugs remain criminals no
matter what they say. They violated the sanctity of The Gambian
constitution and we should never forget that. I think one of the most
important elements in a nation/state is the existence of the notion
constitutionality.
We should however take heart for Jammeh can still be tried in the
future. A case in point is South Korea where the generals Woo and Hwan
are being tried for their roles in overthrowing the Korean government in
1979. They took over power, totured, and killed peopled. They have just
begun to pay the price for their illegal acts. The same fate should not
escape Jammeh.
-Abdou
*******************************************************************************
A. TOURAY.
(718)904-0215.
MY URL ON THE WWW= http://www.cc.columbia.edu/~at137
A FINITE IN A LAND OF INFINITY.
SEEKING BUT THE REACHABLE.
I WANDER AND I WONDER.
ALL RESPITE IS FINAL.
*******************************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 14:27:37 -0800 (PST)
From: "A. Loum" <tloum@u.washington.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Forwarded posting to an error message
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Subject: Error Condition Re: Returned mail - nameserver error report
Rejected message: sent to gambia-l@u.washington.edu by MAILER-DAEMON@mail.tamu.edu follows.
Reason for rejection: message addressed to owners.
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From: momodou@inform-bbs.dk (Momodou Camara)
To: "GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Halifas letter (continuation)
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Forwarded by Momodou Camara.
---forwarded mail START---
From: Malanding S. Jaiteh,msjaiteh@mtu.edu,Internet
To: Momodou Camara
Date: 26.02.96 19:34
Subject: Re: Halifas letter (continuation)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
First, I commend My Sallah for the reconcilliatory stance he took in
this letter against Jammeh and his colleagues. I home the message is
well understood by them and adhered to.
However, we may over optimistic to assume that these fellows would
leave office without struggle. For they do not know such.
My point of disaggreement is that the AFPRC should not be allowed to
contest in any election even if they form a party for a number of reasons.
1)They have in the past shown little respect for the constitution of the
Gambia. They were, at the time of joining the army sworn to protect and
defend our constitution. They fail to do just that when they install
themselves in power with the barrel of the gun and suspended the same
constitution they plegde to protect.
2) they have always played foul since coming to
power, detentions without trial, unexplained deaths including ht
that of a cabinet minister.
Until they become law abiding citizens they should not be allowed to
assume any puplic office much more executive office.
3) By letting them participate in any future elections we will only
help them claim legitimacy.
The really is that even though jammeh and his collegues are in power
without opposition they are still an illegitimate government. There is
no provision in our constitution that allows groups to take it upon
themselves to overthrow governments (can a someone correct me on
that if I am wrong) if they go wrong.
Before I go, a big welcome to our newest members and ofcourse I hope everone
had a wonderful KORITEH!
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Subject: Re: Halifas letter (continuation)
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------------------------------
Date: 27 Feb 1996 08:34:11 GMT
From: momodou@inform-bbs.dk (Momodou Camara)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Halifas letter (continuation)
Message-ID: <3641769950.20062667@inform-bbs.dk>
>Hi,
>Mr Camara, I only wish there were more Gambians like you! You are
>right; the issue is legitimacy. Jammeh and his thugs remain criminals no
>matter what they say. They violated the sanctity of The Gambian
>constitution and we should never forget that. I think one of the most
>important elements in a nation/state is the existence of the notion
>constitutionality.
>We should however take heart for Jammeh can still be tried in the
>future. A case in point is South Korea where the generals Woo and Hwan
>are being tried for their roles in overthrowing the Korean government in
>1979. They took over power, totured, and killed peopled. They have just
>begun to pay the price for their illegal acts. The same fate should not
>escape Jammeh.
>-Abdou
>*******************************************************************************
>*******************************************************************************
>A. TOURAY.
>(718)904-0215.
>MY URL ON THE WWW= http://www.cc.columbia.edu/~at137
>
>A FINITE IN A LAND OF INFINITY.
>SEEKING BUT THE REACHABLE.
>I WANDER AND I WONDER.
>ALL RESPITE IS FINAL.
>*******************************************************************************
>*******************************************************************************
>
-----------------------------
Hi Abdou,
Thanks for the compliment but the fowarded mail you are refering to,
was written by Malanding. The mail was meant for the list but sent to me.
Momodou Camara
--- OffRoad 1.9n registered to Momodou Camara
**************************************
Sent via Inform-BBS
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Information: info@inform-bbs.dk
**************************************
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 8:01:38 -0500
From: "Dana Ott" <dott@usaid.gov>
To: <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: re: The July 22nd Movement: political party or what?
Message-ID: <vines.WBy7+0DPAlb@BASA14037.usaid.gov>
Hello all:
First let me emphasize strongly that nothing I say should be construed to
represent the opinions of USAID or the US government, I'm only a lowly
contractor, and any opinions I offer are my own
Having said all that, my impression is that the July22 Movement is indeed a
political party in everything but name, and I suspect that when parties are
unbanned in March we will see some signs of this. It's ironic that one of
the accusations that is leveled against the Jawara regime is that the
opposition had no chance against their patronage activities, when the current
regime appears to be engaging in the same thing.
Tony:
I believe that anyone should be allowed to contest the elections, after all
if the PPP is as corrupt as the AFPRC claims, who would vote for them? We
allow people to run for office who are certainly bizarre (I won't name any
names) but that is the nature of freedom.
Lamin:
I think the AFPRC is well intentioned in some ways, but very naive and there
are elements of it I find disturbing. It's not accurate to speak of it as
one entity - I don't think - there are so many factions within the AFPRC that
it's unclear to me how the dynamic works in that group. I think the
elections in July are very problemmatic given recent events, but this is a
difficult thing...on the one hand - is it better to hold elections at the
cost of a fair process potentially? Or is it better to try and delay the
process and potentially not have it happen at all? I don't know the answers
to these questions but I understand that many Gambians feel strongly about
having the elections in July and I can understand that. But it will be a
difficult path, to accomplish so much with so little time left.
Roddie:
I understand your frustration but I can tell you that this is a highly
debated topic here...why such reliance on elections? Largely because in an
era where USAID has to account for every dollar it spends overseas, elections
produce an easily measurable result. Unfortunately it is much harder to go
to Congress and say well, we helped develop civil society. The reaction is
that this is not measurable and tangible and therefore not worth funding.
Please understand that this is not an official view, just my impression of
why things are done the way they are. Believe me when I tell you that the
people here understand that democracy is a long-term intensive development
process that is extremely complex, but the limitations of the real world
prevent such a comprehensive approach. We all recognize that democracy took
hundreds of years to develop in Europe and yet are frustrated when we have
not achieved results in 30 years in Africa! Unfortunately when people feel
as though their standard of living is threatened, the first impulse is to say
lets deal with problems here rather than giving to others. This is a problem
everywhere, even the European donors are having to defend their spending
overseas. As I said, this is just my impression of why things work the way
they do.
I don't think African states are unique in their statist approach - again
this is very typical of European regimes which only changed gradually over
time. My question is, how do we reconcile the need for economic and
political development? In most places economic development came first, but
this is no longer acceptable to the peoples of the world. So how do we
prevent the two goals for being contradictory?
Enough.
Dana Ott Phone: (703) 312-7192
Research Analyst Fax: (703) 312-7199
Africa Bureau Information Center Email: dott@usaid.gov
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 18:13:01 -0500
From: MANSALA@aol.com
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Subscriptions ...
Message-ID: <960229181300_337085957@emout10.mail.aol.com>
The main idea behind forming the the Gambia on line is to share information
and enlighten each other about Current events in the Gambia. I for one do
not believe one should fear being persecuted. I also do not think the list
should be limited to Gambians only. The information and exprience we get
will not only help us know more about the activities in the Gambian, but also
help build unity among us abroad.
I hope every one had a happy "koriteh" better late than never.
bye you all.
Mansala.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 11:13:53 -0500 (EST)
From: "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: The July 22nd Movement: political party or what?
Message-ID: <199603011613.LAA02474@aspen>
Dana, as you rightly said the answers to the questions you raised
about holding the election now or later can not be straight forward.
Personally I believe that given hte current situation, the results
would not be significantly different. Any elections held now with
AFPRC involvement would certainly suffer from interference and
malpractices. AFPRC participation would intimidate an already
frightened people. Any outcome favourable to the AFPRC course would
give them the legitimacy the want in the eyes of the international
community. That in my view would bring us to hte world of late Master
Sergeant Doe.
Delaying elections on hte otherhand might in the long run be a
blessing in disguise for the Gambia. It would certainly deny the
the AFPRC any legitimacy they would want.
Some would say that this would only increase the suffering of the
Gambian people. In any case the Gambian poor have suffered long. We
have witnessed during Jawara years, the Gambian poor have seen their
livelihood changed from one of self-sufficient to
extra-hardworking, foreign food-aid dependent. Our apparent
inability to make Jawara appear inadequate and less caring made it
possible for him to stay in power for 32 years.
Unfortunately this is the future for the Gambian people with an
elected AFPRC government.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 15:57:42 -0500
From: Gabriel Ndow <gndow@auc.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: new member
Message-ID: <199603022057.PAA21149@auc.edu>
Hi folks,
I'm back after a week long absence. I have included chris phillips in our
list and look forward to him giving us an introduction. I have also included
Bamba Ngum, however I am not sure if he will be included since I do not
oversee those under .com. (My domain is .org, the americas and others) I believe this is Sarian's domain. Sarian, you might have to include him if
mine did not work. It all depends on how Katim or Tony has the list set up.
I would also like to welcome Dana to our group.
LatJor.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 23:25:42 -0500
From: MANSALA@aol.com
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: new member
Message-ID: <960302232541_158593214@emout07.mail.aol.com>
Hi new member,
Wecome to the Gambia on L. Program. As a Gambian, we hope to benefit from
you. As you may have already know, the main idea behind this organization is
sharing of infromation and unbias opinion. It is an open forum. Every topic
is open for debate or discussion.
Thanks,
Mansala.
------------------------------
End of GAMBIA-L Digest 5
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gambia-l: LOG9603B - Digest 5
