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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Oct 2010 : 22:27:54
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One thing for sure it shows the Chinese and Indian residents of the UK do better than anyone else,these kids are no more clever than other kids but their ambition to be the most successful in the world is showing through,probably due to the influence of their parents,and the loss of face they would suffer through failure.Who is going to build the next Empire India or China.?
FIRST BIT.
The commission does say that Britain is a largely "tolerant and open-minded society", which has become more socially liberal in recent decades. Opposition to working for an ethnic minority boss and aversion to mixed-race marriages has dropped. Gone too are the stereotypical views about the roles that men and women should play in family.
Second BIT
"The study says the biggest change has been the dramatic shift in attitudes to homosexuality. "A gap of less than 20 years separated the parliamentary debates about Section 28 [which banned councils from 'promoting' homosexuality] and civil partnership."
First bit Bad,? Second bit good ? Both Bits Good? Both Bits Bad?
Bear in mind that this was published in a left wing socialist leaning newspaper.
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 11 Oct 2010 22:55:20 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2010 : 02:06:52
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This graphic shows that there is a significant co-relation between 'wealth' and 'success in school'. Obviously, this may result similar result in crime too.
Other thing is that, it is given, intelligence is regardless of your race and ethnicity you have it equally. But, the collective intelligence could make significant differences. It seems like Jewish and Chinese communities are, collectively, have better rates in academic success than others. And there is no question, the education or lack of it has direct impact on crime. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2010 : 02:25:26
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"This graphic shows that there is a significant co-relation between 'wealth' and 'success in school'. Obviously, this may result similar result in crime too."
No it dosn't White British and All pupils are equal therefore according to you white British and All pupils are equally wealthy and good at school,whereas there is no mention at all in the figures presented about wealth,it follows therefore that there is no co-relation with crime,as crime isn't mentioned at all.All The Graph shows is that Chinese and Indian pupils are better at achieving the best results.I am at a loss to know why free school meals were included in the same graph maybe the authors of the graph wanted to show that eating curry or bean sprouts and noodles made you get better exam results.!
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2010 : 10:25:08
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Free school meals are used as an indicator of how poor the kids are that go to a school. It it is another indicator.
It could be the main factor in this graph is POVERTY!
Things aren't usually simple. To say it is ALL RACE is a BIG oversimplification.
There are differences in achievement between different racial groups. Is this just due to poverty or is there something else going on?Poverty doesnt seem to matter in Chinese population.
Religion? Whether 1st or 2nd generation immigrants, Male role models and so on........
Girls are consistently out achieving boys. It used to be the opposite when I was at school. Why is that?
For British society the issue is how to engage Black Caribbean, Pakistani and white POOR BOYS in the education system and society. Interestingly the worst achieving group of GIRLS is the POOR WHITE girls. Poverty of ambition. My gut feeliing is that they will also have the highest teenage pregnancy rates.  |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2010 : 13:07:19
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Gambiabev. That is what i said based on the school meals indicator. As you can see the graphic, those who receive school meals allowance, are doing worse than those who are not eligible. This is clear evidence that 'wealth' had impact on the success in education which is the best social policy to combat crime. And race as itself is not reason as I believe every individual has equal chance to success if outside/social factors do not have impact. Poverty is important factor but not the single one. There are lots of reasons. Example from Turkey. When you read history books, there are official history and Kurdish students feels like they do not have opportunity to learn, discuss about Kurdish history in details. Until recently, they were not able to learn Kurdish as a second language in private institution. The cultural identity is very important to the students and when they do not have the opportunity, this does not motivate them. Chinese and Jews are doing good, one of the reason is that, these students have strong communities which cover the need of students in terms of unique cultural education. In Toronto, we have a Jewish town, there are many Jewish schools, but in addition to that, Jewish families organize educational and cultural studies along with the family and students in coffee shop in the neighborhood to the kids about their history, culture, music poetry on Saturdays after their preying. Basically they go to coffee shop, some older dude talk about things to children. I found it to be very effective. What I am saying, the student must be satisfied about what he or she learn in school. If he or she is not satisfied this is not motivation. When you read English textbook, history books, are they objective about history? If the student is not satisfied what he or she is learning, there must be some alternative to motive this kid about learning.
And there could be different reason for other students. Maybe too much liberalism and partying. The academic success is based on several factors, the individual self, family, community, lack of government polity, curriculum, objectivity of the books specifically in history, arts. Many reason. That was the indent of my post.
The issue is very complex. There are several different reasons for different group failure. There are some common reasons impacting every group, there are unique reasons impacting different group differently. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 12 Oct 2010 13:11:29 |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2010 : 13:17:46
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Gambiabev;
"Things aren't usually simple. To say it is ALL RACE is a BIG oversimplification."
"There are differences in achievement between different racial groups. Is this just due to poverty or is there something else going on?Poverty doesnt seem to matter in Chinese population."
I think turk is getting into his usual mode of confusion and complex discussions that are for those who live just to use their brain and nothing else,no fun in that for me,if that's you bag great I agree with you observations that you have expressed above which show, to me anyway that these statistics are not capable of being interpreted in the way that the people commisioned them want,in other words upon closer inspection they do not show what was intended to be shown by those who commissioned the graph.As usual statistics can be made to show anything that you want depending on your point of view,you have seen that and so have I.
turk has highlighted the flaws in statistical analysis.
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2010 : 13:18:32
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touby, touby, touby
quote:
No it dosn't White British and All pupils are equal therefore according to you white British and All pupils are equally wealthy and good at school,whereas there is no mention at all in the figures presented about wealth,it follows therefore that there is no co-relation with crime,as crime isn't mentioned at all.
The first article clearly presents that the 'education is key' to combat crime. So that is why, the first thing I wanted to see the education (and there was actually a link in crime page to education page) to understand why some are failing in education. Because without education it is more difficult to deal with the issues life presents to you. There could be several reasons for crime, but lack of education is one of the most important onces.
quote:
All The Graph shows is that Chinese and Indian pupils are better at achieving the best results.I am at a loss to know why free school meals were included in the same graph maybe the authors of the graph wanted to show that eating curry or bean sprouts and noodles made you get better exam results.!
The meals indicates the 'wealth', if student eligible free meals, that means the student belongs to lower income family. If not, the student does not belong to lower income family. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2010 : 13:47:31
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Turk,your own words:
This graphic shows that there is a significant co-relation between 'wealth' and 'success in school'. Obviously, this may result similar result in crime too."
You should note your first two words and it was on that basis that I responded,you cannot change the goal posts and write "The first article clearly presents that the 'education is key' to combat crime."
(I rest my case.  )
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2010 : 15:11:47
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What case? I did not understand what the case is. I did not change anything. You have to re-explain because I don't get what you are saying neither what your case is.
The graphic shows 'wealth' and 'success in school' is related. Indirectly 'wealth' may have impact on crime. Graph could have a general meaning. And there are always exceptions. One would argue, that wealth and success in school is related which is illustrated in this article with the exception of Chinese. The exception itself does not invalidate relationship. The exception may mean Chinese community could have another element that removing the relationship between 'wealth and academic success'. And considering Chinese success in business and those migrated from Honk Kong are being very wealthy people, Chinese are also indeed wealthy.
Based on your argument, one would say. There isn't relationship between 'wealth and academic success, look at Chinese are poor. And I would say, this can't be general statement, it is an exception, because other ethnic groups demonstrate that there is a relationship.
Touby, social science is not like positive science. There are lots of grey areas. Statistics, measures, may be used to understand 'general' trends, and there are always exceptions, that is what makes social science 'grey', instead of black and white.
So the argument could be
-Wealth and academic success have relationship, for example african/pakistani/caribbean population are falling behind as they are have socio-economically behind other groups.
- One would speculate this would be due to race which is as Gambiabev indicated oversimplification. This has nothing to do with race in terms of DNA but it is closely related the social circumstances of immigrants which happen to relates to race. Most immigrants, recent comer, new comer, first and second generations are immigrants of different racial background. the reason specific group falling behind in academic success not because of the ethnicity, these groups are recent immigrants, new comer, due to financial and settlement difficulties, cultural integration issues, the pupils could have more challenges to be successful in school system.
Let me give you myself as an example. I had difficulty completing my master degree, as I was also working at time. I was the only immigrant in one class and other students mostly white folks who have been there for a long time, third, forth generation. They did not have to work. A few of them were staying with the parents, a few of them already have condo due to their parents. I had to work. So, it is difficult to new comer to establish a life in another country. Most new comers have many issues from 'money' 'accommodation' 'finding job', parents working long hours, this difficulties impact on students too. Most immigrants to England come from either Africa, Pakistan or other places, they do have similar issues. They have less time to prioritize the quality of education. Now, i am more establish and stable in terms of income and settlement. But I can't imagine how hard it would be when i migrated 10 years ago having my daughter. I would not have provided the same quality parenting and education as now. I was working and going school with little money. While my daughter would have same intelligence, it could have been different rate in academic success as the circumstances do impact on students.
When I look search for a school, I used the board of education success statistics. Some schools have higher rate of success, some are very low. And I did intensive search and higher success areas usually wealthy neighborhood and lower success of rate not-so-wealthy neighborhood. When I get my place, I had to consider the school my daughter is going to attend.
This is only the education side of the story. Crime and Race in UK situation would be based on several factors.
- Integration problems
- Institutional Racism
- Social problems like poverty
- Others
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 12 Oct 2010 19:15:02 |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2010 : 17:43:57
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OK "this graphic" certainly shows British White = All pupils ie the same position on the graph. Indian and Chinese are shown as much above in position on the graph to British White and all pupils,that will make my posting easier for you to understand.I did not reply at all to your first link because your words said "this graph" and not in the first link I have posted etc... so I responded to the graph results,you are derailing things again and I am not going to be derailed,you are wrong turk, thats it .
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2010 : 18:49:38
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| Sorry, I did not understand what you are saying. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2010 : 18:59:35
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That's Ok,topic ended for me anyway, too deep and complicated, a mind excercise,don't want that, I am a simple person,my grey cells get overloaded very quickly sorry.
quote:
Originally posted by turk
Sorry, I did not understand what you are saying.
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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