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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 01:12:09
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| Thanks Janyafara for your active participation and your long essays or thesis. Tried to pull your legs with them but now backtracked and would like to acknowledge that you always provide nourishing information and share your knowledge in any topic you dealt with charisma. Keep up the good work and all active participants! |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 08:34:19
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Janyanfara did you ever think that women might want to be something more than a POSSESSION to be passed from father to husband!
She might NOT want to get married, she might NOT want to have children. She might NOT want to live on the compound. Perhaps she would like to live alone? Or travel? Or get an education? Or work in the city?
Perhaps she would like to choose her husband instead of HIM picking her!
A women should have choices the same as a man and the ONLY way to achieve that is to give EQUAL rights of inheritance and EQUAL rights to employment and pay.
Janyanfara
What you say is well intended I am sure. The women will be cared for and treated like a princess. DO you have ANY idea how patronising that is??!!!!
Jane Austens books were written in the 1700s in uk and that was the attitude to women then. THANKFULLY things have changed a bit here, even if pretty slowly!
Oh what a way to start the day. I need to go and take a shower and calm down a bit before I go to work! LOL!
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 09:52:52
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Briefly Quotaion from the Quraan:
"From what is left by parents And those nearest related"
(From my source: The interpreter resisted the temptation to translate "next to kin" as this phrase has a technical meaning in Indian Law, referring to certain kinds of jiers, whereas here the people meant are those whose inheritance is to be divided).
"There is a share for men And a share for women, wheter the property be small Or large,-a determinate share."
"But if at the time of division Other relatives, or orphans, Or poor, are present, Give them out of the (property), And speak to them Words of kindness and justice."
(The shares are specified. Here the general principles are laid down that females inherit as well as males, and that relatives who have no legal shares, orphans, and indigent people are not to be treated harshly, if present at the division.)
"Let those (disposing of an estate) Have the same fear in their minds As they would have for their own If they had left a helpless family behind: Let them fear Allah, and speak Appropriate words"
(It is a touching argument addressed to those who have to divide an estate. @How anxious would you be if you had left a helpless family behind? If others do so, help and be kind'.
To be continued! |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 10:57:41
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Jayanfara
once a gain you enlighten us all. but a common pattern of yours is to dilute the debate by broadening it. in Sharia law and islamic law of inheritance males and females don't have equal share.the Share of the Male is always greater than the female.
THIS IS A FACT AND FROM MY EXPERIENCE IN THE GAMBIA THATS HOW IT IS PRACTICED BY MUSLIMS AND IMAMS.
THE DEBATE IS NOT ABOUT ISLAM BUT INHERITANCE. A SIMPLE GOOGLE CLARIFIES THE DEBATE.
"Allah commands you regarding your children. For the male a share equivalent to that of two females. " [Quran 4:11]
http://www.islam101.com/sociology/inheritance.htm
PERHAPS YOU CAN CHECK THE SOURCE AND LET US KNOW IF IT IS VALID OR NOT RATHER THAN PATRONISE WOMEN TO STAY AT HOME AND BE PRINCESSES.
OFCOURSE WE MUST ALL ACCEPT THE RULES OF THE RELIGION WE BELONG TO. |
Edited by - njucks on 05 Jul 2006 11:00:26 |
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twinkly
United Kingdom
190 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 11:14:52
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quote:
Originally posted by gambiabev
Janyanfara did you ever think that women might want to be something more than a POSSESSION to be passed from father to husband!
Gambiabev, you seem to have serious negative issues with Islam.Try to educate yourself, instead of following some bad muslims attitudes.I used to have the same feelings and I said I could marry any man apart from a muslim, because they treat women unfairly.I feel ashamed now to have ever thought that because the more I learn, the more I see that I interpreted Islam very wrongly.
Janyafarang's words are very true, take them to heart.A good muslim will tell you exactly the same.
The good muslims can't be held responsible for the ones who are not following their religion properly.Get this out of your head, if you find a good, decent muslim, you would never want to make such comments again.
Educate yourself before you judge
quote:
She might NOT want to get married, she might NOT want to have children. She might NOT want to live on the compound. Perhaps she would like to live alone? Or travel? Or get an education? Or work in the city?
What a waste of a life.....
Why are we on this earth? Definitely not just to have fun!!!If everybody thought like that, the human race would not exist. But for most people nowdays life is ALL about having fun
quote:
Perhaps she would like to choose her husband instead of HIM picking her!
If you knew what you were talking about, you would not make this comment.I think your statement is more accurate for many hindus, who still force their daughters to marry a man of the parents choice.
I wish I could have had an arranged marriage, but unfortunately I come from a western background,but I see the positive side of it, there's no need to look around and date how many men until you found Mr. Right.
quote:
A women should have choices the same as a man and the ONLY way to achieve that is to give EQUAL rights of inheritance and EQUAL rights to employment and pay.
Janyanfara
What you say is well intended I am sure. The women will be cared for and treated like a princess. DO you have ANY idea how patronising that is??!!!!
Please find out about some decent families in Gambia before throwing disrespectful words into the air.There is nothing patronising about Janyanfra's statement, it is only stupid men who don't know the real meanings of Islam and how to treat a woman.The women in my family have every right to challenge their husbands if he steps out of line, they are no doormats who just have to say yes to everything.
We need to have differences between men and women, we can't be equal, otherwise we might aswell be a one-sex species.
A decent muslim will respect and treat his woman right....like a princess, and in turn the woman treats her man like a prince.It's a give and take, but you only seem to think it is "give" from the woman and a "take" from the man. Maybe you need to find a nice, decent man and your attitude would change.Not all men are bad
I find you statements very naive, disrespectful and uneducated, sorry.
Sorry for going off topic
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Edited by - twinkly on 05 Jul 2006 11:19:17 |
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 11:56:17
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Twinkly, i find some of YOUR statements very confusing (no need to say sorry, i think, if you have a different point of view). You tell us you wish you could have had an arranged marriage, so you wouldn't have had to date i don't know how many men to find Mr Right. Are you kidding us?
Is wanting to live alone and wanting to travel and be educated a wasted life? Who are you to presume to know what a worthwhile life is like? Aren't we all, men and women alike, persons of free will?
You say men and women are not equal. I hope you mean to say we are not the same (and i am very happy about that too), but of course we are equal and we have equal rights - one of those rights being the right to choose our partner in life.
But to get back to the topic: Rainbow, who is asking herself who should inherit her wealth, is telling us that she is afraid that if her husband (whom she loves) inherits it, he will use it to marry another woman and the woman will make Rainbow's children suffer. This idea made me sad: how could a man you love, neglect your children after you have died?
Of course he might need to find himself a new partner in time, but shouldn't he always see to it first of all that the children he had from his first marriage are not in lack of anything, material and immaterial like love and care?
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When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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Janyanfara
Tanzania
1350 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 13:33:51
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My dear gambiabev/anna ect,
I think you need to read the Holy Quran and understand.I slam has never said a woman should be given in marriage without her concent.Infact parents try convince their daughters to marry into families of respect and sometimes do everything to convince their daughters by every means so as not to produce criminals/lunatics and lawless terrorists out of their ofsprings.As you can see now with everything in chaos,we are divided and criminals butcher in the name of a faith[whether they be crusaiders/Islamic extremist ect].
Our forefathers and foremothers were rightly guided while we are left like animals to make our own decisions.[God has never sent any messanger to Animals has HE?Well if he had,not to my knowledge.We never had that before.
As for a son,yes the same treatment was given as equals to a daughter.You may not have read all my last text.I did mentioned that only men's greed led us to where we are today.
In Europe and America,you might have read to what became the reason for the now massive Protestant Christian faith?If you do,then you should not say what you are saying now.
Yes you also had arranged marriages.Yes you also had men highly favoured over women.Yes you also has women used as only house wives.My dears things only changes about fourty year ago don't forget.
I practice Islam/Christianity and judaism and also respect these religions and would always defend their oreginal texts as sent by God to mankind.For God never sent the wrong people to us.[All these religiions only ask us one thing]== Submit to the will of God who creates
You know and I know that Christianity,like Islam and Judaism, has also changed beyong recognisation and vast majority of the christian faith can't even tell you what is stated on the first page of the Holy Bible.They will tell you they last visited Church with their parents when they were young.This is sad isn't it?Christ never said you can build your own church in your house.
And our dear priests, oh God!They've turned the church into their cabinet offices imposing their will over God's subjects.True or false?[I have a diploma in bible studies]So I think I know what I talk about.Where in the bible is it stated that we can have gay priests?It is a human choise to become Gay or les. But if you read the story of Lot,you will know what am talking about.
Marriages and inheritances in these religions have changed from their oreginal texts and men should only try and turn back have respect for themselves and fear/respect God.
You might ask yourselves why do women see their monthly periods and men don't?
You might ask yourselves why a single small sperm cell out of 93million cells turns to become us from man to woman?
You might ask yourselves why an unborn baby in the womb turns away from heat when the mother turns towards fire?
You might ask yourselves why women have 10 ribson both left and rights whilst men have 10 on the right and 9 on the left?
God never does any thing for nothing.
Read,Read,Read,Read Read...and you shall know that not only science,literature,history,mathematics,physics/chemestry/Biology ect are our basic things we need to know on earth but KNOW YOUR CREATOR.
"KNOW ME B4 YOU WORSHIP ME.YOU CANNOT WORSHIP ME IF YOU DON'T KNOW ME"
"KNOW YOUR FATHER WHO CREATES"
peace
Janyanfara |
Edited by - Janyanfara on 05 Jul 2006 13:47:32 |
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serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 13:38:16
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quote:
Originally posted by twinkly
I said I could marry any man apart from a muslim, because they treat women unfairly.
I thought the same, and except for some things that remain strange to me, I was surprised to see that my (Muslim) husband didn't fit this image. We should be aware that there is and has always been a lot of negative propaganda against muslim men in the west.
quote:
Originally posted by twinkly
What a waste of a life.....
Twinkly, you don't want to tell us that a working, unmarried woman is wasting her life, do you?
quote:
Originally posted by twinkly
I wish I could have had an arranged marriage, but unfortunately I come from a western background,but I see the positive side of it, there's no need to look around and date how many men until you found Mr. Right.
An experimental phase is important for young people, boys and girls alike, and they should have it. Many cultures grant this to their youth. Concerning marriage I agree insofar as 'arranged' does not mean 'forced', as parents could make proposals, nothing more, nothing less. But unfortunately it seems as if not many parents are able to withstand the temptation to force their children... |
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serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 13:44:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Janyanfara
[size=3]My dear gambiabev/anna ect,
I think you need to read the Holy Quran and understand.I slam has never said a woman should be given in marriage without her concent.
Yes you also had arranged marriages.Yes you also had men highly favoured over women.Yes you also has women used as only house wives.My dears things only changes about fourty year ago don't forget.
You are perfectly right, Janyanfara. |
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Janyanfara
Tanzania
1350 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 13:50:33
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| You welcomed my dear Satang[serenata] |
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Formby
United Kingdom
246 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 15:57:22
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| Oh Twinkly...what an attitude you have! Well, define that role for yourself but please do not try to make out that it is the right way. You automatically jump down the throat of anyone who suggest that a woman's role should be anything but passive and accepting of a man's will. That's just so, so sad. Actually, Islam doesn't even do that, it just seems to be what your opinion of a woman's role is. Why, are you afraid to try unless you fail? Is it better for you to just sit passive? |
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twinkly
United Kingdom
190 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 16:07:55
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Anna
Yes, I do say that men and women are not equal and we shouldn't be.We should both be treated with respect and dignity, but we are never equal.
A man's physics is already different to a womans, men are said to have the muscles, women have the heartly, emotional things.And why can only women have babies?This is an important factor and should not be ignored.What's the point in bringing children into this world only to have to give them away to strangers to look after so the woman can go to work and be free?
We can't be equal because we have different duties in live to fulfill.
quote:
You tell us you wish you could have had an arranged marriage, so you wouldn't have had to date i don't know how many men to find Mr Right. Are you kidding us?
No I'm not kidding you
Wouldn't it be easier if you could marry a man you or your parents know from the beginning is suitable for you instead of having to go through the whole process of getting to know one another and in the end it turns out you don't match?Maybe there will be children involved already who will suffer from the break-up and they have to go through the same procedure of getting to know a "new" dad.......
Luckily Anna, I didn't have to date many men, I chose my only other man before my husband very carefully, but his strong Asian background would not allow a white into the family.
quote:
Twinkly, you don't want to tell us that a working, unmarried woman is wasting her life, do you?
No Serenata, I certainly didn't mean it that way.
But many women nowadays waste their lives on great careers and when it comes to having family, they either have to sacrifice the upbringing of their children or they don't have any at all.My ex-boss deeply regrets now at the age of 40, working her way up to be a self-made millionaire, but not having a man and worst of all not being able to have kids for some physical reason now.(probably worked too hard)
I hope I'm being understood properly now, because I'm way off topic now
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Rainbow
Gambia
114 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 16:31:16
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| All your contributions are very important but the topic is .... Who do you think should inherit your wealth children, partner,parents or relatives? |
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twinkly
United Kingdom
190 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 16:45:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Formby
Oh Twinkly...what an attitude you have!
You automatically jump down the throat of anyone who suggest that a woman's role should be anything but passive and accepting of a man's will. That's just so, so sad. Actually, Islam doesn't even do that, it just seems to be what your opinion of a woman's role is. Why, are you afraid to try unless you fail? Is it better for you to just sit passive?
I must be expressing myself so wrongly.....
Where did you ever read in any of my statements that a woman should be passive?Just because I'm not forcing my power over my man and I don't have to show him that I wear the trousers doesn't mean I'm not active.I have my role and he has his.Simple.
Many relationships would last longer if women wouldn't keep trying to force their power over him.We are equal in our relationship, I have my role, he has his.
That way there is no power struggle because we both know what is expected of us.
Having different roles doesn't mean I am the weaker one or have less say.I can't understand why women have to do exactly the same as men.
After all, men don't feel the need to do exactly as women do, so why should we have to copy men? A decent man treats his woman right so she will never feel the need to be superior...And a decent man would not give the woman the feeling that he is superior.
In connection with Islam, I feel very proud to be in charge of my roles and duties and glady leave the man's duties to him, they seem a lot more stressful and responsible.
Sorry Rainbow, I'll keep quiet now and let the other bash my words as much as they like
Your topic is a very tricky one because the situation in Africa and Europe is very different.I will go from an african point of view.
What kind of a man would leave his children to suffer under a new wife anyway?That is pretty bad, and this is not at all a good man who would let such a thing happen.The family should make sure that this wouldn't happen.
With my european thinking I would say the inheritance has to go to the husband and children, but with the situation you pointed out it is very difficult to decide.The same goes for a widow, she should be getting the husbands wealth instead of being driven away to leave her children behind and having to find another man.Unless the woman can and wants to stay in the family, I find this a horrible thing for many african women to go through. |
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serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 17:09:00
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Rainbow, my deaf-aid is ON! But maybe yours is not , so: 1. Your children 2. Your parents, and 3. Your husband should have your wealth!
I mean that your children should have the biggest part. If your parents are needy, they should have the second biggest part, and your partner should have the rest.
By no means is it right that relatives, like in your example, or greedy co-wifes take what is not their share. Also it is a crying shame that widows are left with nothing. If it is too expensive for widows to go to courts, in case of quarrels (or open theft) alkalos or other local authorities should have the right to set things in order. |
Edited by - serenata on 05 Jul 2006 17:21:09 |
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