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Momodou
Denmark
11512 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jun 2021 : 15:33:17
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GAMBIA-L Digest 57
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) We must reclaim our nation
by KTouray@aol.com
2) Re: Alieu Jawara's message
by Mostafa Jersey Marong <mbmarong@students.wisc.edu>
3) Local election
by "Jobarteh, Momodou" <Momodou.Jobarteh@hordaland.vegvesen.telemax.no>
4) Re: Local election
by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
5) Re: Vice-Presidency Issue
by Yaya Jallow <yj0001@jove.acs.unt.edu>
6) Sv: New members
by "Yusuph Jatta" <Payus@dk-online.dk>
7) Good to be back
by SBarry1035@aol.com
8) Response to Moe & others
by umjawara@cc.UManitoba.CA
9) Re: We must reclaim our nation
by Abdou Gibba <Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no>
10) Fwd: UNITED NATIONS: U.S. Continues to Grab Majpr U.N Contracts
by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
11) Fwd: SIERRA LEONE-POPULATION: Returning
by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
12) FW: a booklet on FGM
by =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Nordam?= <asbjorn.nordam@dif.dk>
13) introduction
by Gabriel Jatta <gabriel.jatta@helsingborg.se>
14) Re: Good to be back
by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
15) Re: Response to Moe & others
by Mostafa Jersey Marong <mbmarong@students.wisc.edu>
16) Is Western-Style Democracy suited for Africa?
by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
17) Re: Response to Moe & others
by Debbie Proctor <proctord@u.washington.edu>
18) Re: Response to Moe & others
by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
19) Re: Is Western-Style Democracy suited for Africa?
by BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH <KOLLS567@QATAR.NET.QA>
20) (Part1) POLYGAMY IN PERSPECTIVE!!
by BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH <KOLLS567@QATAR.NET.QA>
21) Re: Local election
by "Jobarteh, Momodou" <Momodou.Jobarteh@hordaland.vegvesen.telemax.no>
22) Re: Is Western-Style Democracy suited for Africa?
by Ylva Hernlund <yher@u.washington.edu>
23) Re: Local election
by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
24) Re: Is Western-Style Democracy suited for Africa?
by "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
25) Re: Is Western-Style Democracy suited for Africa?
by Yaya Jallow <yj0001@jove.acs.unt.edu>
26) New member
by "A. Loum" <tloum@u.washington.edu>
27) Re: Is Western-Style Democracy suited for Africa?
by BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH <KOLLS567@QATAR.NET.QA>
28) Update on Daily Observer Online (strat. com)
by "N'Deye Marie Njie" <njie.1@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>
29) Re: Response to Moe & others
by Serigne Mamadou <9220373@talabah.iiu.my>
30) Re: We must reclaim our nation
by MJagana@aol.com
31) Re: Is Western-Style Democracy suited for Africa?
by MJagana@aol.com
32) Re: We must reclaim our nation
by binta@iuj.ac.jp
33) Re: Is Western-Style Democracy suited for Africa?
by Abdou Gibba <Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no>
34) Re: We must reclaim our nation
by Abdou Gibba <Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no>
35) Should we be CLONING around???
by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
36) re Cloning
by "Per E. Grotnes" <perg@nfh.uit.no>
37) faith
by "M'BAI OF" <O.F.M'Bai@icsl.ac.uk>
38) polygamy, violence, troublemakers ...
by Andrea Klumpp <klumpp@kar.dec.com>
39) Re: Is Western-Style Democracy suited for Africa?
by Andrea Klumpp <klumpp@kar.dec.com>
40) Re: Serigne Mamadou's message
by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
41) Re: Serigne Mamadou's message
by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
42) (Part2) POLYGAMY IN PERSPECTIVE
by BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH <KOLLS567@QATAR.NET.QA>
43) Re: Is Western-Style Democracy suited for Africa?
by BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH <KOLLS567@QATAR.NET.QA>
44) Re: (Part2) POLYGAMY IN PERSPECTIVE
by Ylva Hernlund <yher@u.washington.edu>
45) Fwd: No Brainers !!! (fwd)
by binta@iuj.ac.jp
46) Re: We must reclaim our nation
by KTouray@aol.com
47) Problem:
by TOURAY1@aol.com
48) Re: (Part2) POLYGAMY IN PERSPECTIVE
by "Heidi Skramstad" <heidis@amadeus.cmi.no>
49) Re: Is Western-Style Democracy suited for Africa?
by Abdou Gibba <Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no>
50) Re: We must reclaim our nation
by Abdou Gibba <Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no>
51) RE: WESTERN-STYLE DEMOCRACY
by Olafiaklinikken Olafia <olafia@online.no>
52) RE: faith
by "Jobarteh, Momodou" <Momodou.Jobarteh@hordaland.vegvesen.telemax.no>
53) Re: (Part1+2) POLYGAMY IN PERSPECTIVE
by Andrea Klumpp <klumpp@kar.dec.com>
54) ANOTHER COUP PLOT?? GNG DETENTIONS AND SUSPENSIONS
by Ceesay Soffie <Ceesay_Soffie@ems.prc.com>
55) Re: Response to Moe & others
by "Per E. Grotnes" <perg@nfh.uit.no>
56) RE: faith
by "M'BAI OF" <O.F.M'Bai@icsl.ac.uk>
57) Business in The Gambia
by "Per E. Grotnes" <perg@nfh.uit.no>
58) Re: Reply to Moe S. Jallow on the Qur'an and science.
by Serigne Mamadou <9220373@talabah.iiu.my>
59) RE: WESTERN-STYLE DEMOCRACY
by Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net>
60) Re: Response to Moe & others
by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
61) Re: Business in The Gambia
by Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net>
62) FWD: PROGRAMMER/DATA ANALYST; Forestry Related (fwd)
by "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
63) New member
by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
64) New member
by "A.Dibba" <adibba@online.no>
65) Re: Business in The Gambia
by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
66) Re: Business in The Gambia
by "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
67) Re: Response to Moe & others
by "Numukunda Darboe" <ndarboe@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu>
68) Re: Business in The Gambia
by binta@iuj.ac.jp
69) Response to Per
by umjawara@cc.UManitoba.CA
70) Re: Alieu Jawara's message
by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
71) Re: New member
by Shieboyc@aol.com
72) Re: Business in The Gambia
by MJagana@aol.com
73) Re: New member
by MJagana@aol.com
74) Re: Business in The Gambia
by "Per E. Grotnes" <perg@nfh.uit.no>
75) Re: Business in The Gambia
by "Per E. Grotnes" <perg@nfh.uit.no>
76) Re: Response to Per
by BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH <KOLLS567@QATAR.NET.QA>
77) Science and religion
by "Per E. Grotnes" <perg@nfh.uit.no>
78) Re: Science and religion
by BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH <KOLLS567@QATAR.NET.QA>
79)
by Ceesay Soffie <Ceesay_Soffie@ems.prc.com>
80) Re: Business in The Gambia
by "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
81) FW: Petition (fwd)
by Isatou Bojang <isatoub@student.umass.edu>
82) FW: Immediate Help is needed. (fwd)
by Isatou Bojang <isatoub@student.umass.edu>
83) RE: faith
by "Jobarteh, Momodou" <Momodou.Jobarteh@hordaland.vegvesen.telemax.no>
84) Re: Business in The Gambia
by Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net>
85) Re: Business in The Gambia
by Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net>
86) UNDP Report on Energy
by Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net>
87) Independent celebrations - PDOIS Conspicuously Absent
by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
88) Libyan Leader On The Creation Of African Force.
by "Matarr M. Jeng." <mmjeng@image.dk>
89)
by "Matarr M. Jeng." <mmjeng@image.dk>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 03:31:22 -0500 (EST)
From: KTouray@aol.com
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: We must reclaim our nation
Message-ID: <970223033122_-1307011052@emout13.mail.aol.com>
I'll savely bet that some members of this list would find what I am
advocating here this time around either heretic or utterly nonesensical.I'll
confess reaching the conclusions I did wasn't easy for me either but i am
convinced we as a nation are confronted with situations that at the very
least demand extraordinary answers. Saddled with a leadership that muscled
itself to the top by jailing , excluding and harassing all it's opponents,
faced with an economy that is shrinking at a devastating rate with no
coherent hope of recovery and a general sense of hopelessness among the
majority of the population, I believe it is time to embark on a different
approach if we hope to live as a free people in a viable country. We must
walk away from the self defeating notion that serious defficiencies in gov't
would be addressed by the very people who perpetuate it . It has never
happened anywhere on the face of the earth. Throughout history people who
have found themselve encumbered by rot and misrule have taken it upon
themselves to temporarily step outside the law and force change not only
because it makes them feel good but they are often driven by the desire to
make life better for their children who inturn would be motivated to continue
progress.I submit to you ladies and gentlemen that we ought not be any
different. We have the wrong people at our leadership and the situation is
grave. If we chose the easy route as we have done for most of our recent
history and acquiesce to a group of people who clearly don't know what they
are doing then we would have brought unto our own people a huge travesty.
While i am not advocating an outright armed insurrection against our current
leadership, I would urge a strong and sustained civil disobedience structured
to chokeoff the operations of the gov't. Streaming in tens of thousands of
demonstrators to the capital everyday would quickly overwhelm authorities
because they will know that shooting that many people into submittion is not
a viable option. Brutality only succeeds when it is done on a relatively few
to scare the rest. But what can a few hundred well armed soldiers do to tens
of thousands of people overflowing office buildings and public places for
days? Nothing.
Barring such actions I'll venture to say our country would be on a protracted
path to destitution as harsh as that may sound. we will never forgive
ourselves for letting our nation nose dive for the worst because we were too
timid to confront a few hundred security goons. We are a proud people
entitled to the best leadership we can produce not the one that would impose
itself on us.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 07:11:18 -0600
From: Mostafa Jersey Marong <mbmarong@students.wisc.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Alieu Jawara's message
Message-ID: <199702231315.HAA22576@audumla.students.wisc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 02:40 AM 2/23/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Mr. Jawara, you wrote:
>
>> Hello everyone,
>> thank you very much Moe for a very educative piece. I enjoyed it a
>> lot but I feel few points need to be clarified. You mentioned a verse
>> (or part of a verse) from the Quran that says "we have not given you in
>> knowledge and science except very little". I suppose you are speaking
>> from chapter 17, Al Isra (The Night Journey). It might be helpful to
>> give the entire verse, "They ask you, O! Muhammad, about ROOH (the soul),
>> say the knowledge of it is with my lord and we have not given you in
>> knowledge thereof except very little". This doesn't mean that ALLAH (God)
>> has not given mankind much knowledge. The Quran actually has given a
>> lot of scientific knowledge. I know of some great scientists embracing
>> Islam after discovering great accuracy of scientific knowledge in the
>> Quran. I'll give you a few examples, unfortunately I can't elaborate on
>> them now due to time constraints.
>
>Thank you for your response. You are abosolutely right, I was referring to
>chapt. 17. I apologize for the brief summary I provided. I have always
>been looking muslim discussion groups where i can direct specific
>questions. Do you know of any?
>
>> I will give you the list of references for these and much more from
>> the Quran and the Hadith if you're interested. I just want to mention at
>> this point that all these were revealed onto a Prophet that can neither
>> read or write.
>
>I am very much interested and would appreciate any information you can
>provide me. If you need to e-mail me any files, you may use my personal
>addresses below.
>
>
>Mr. Jawara, I was recently asked a question by a friend who had just
>converted to
>Islam from Christianity. I helped him get an English translation of the
>Qur'an and as he read over it he had some questions that I was not able to
>answer. Can you help answer the question (1 of 2)? If not, can you direct
>me to a listserver that would be more appropriate?
>
>
>Here is the question:
>
> In chapter 15, verse 16 (and chapter 21, verse 31) mountains are
> referred to as holding the earth steady, preventing it from shaking. (A
> footnote refers to chapter 78, verse 7 where the mountains are compared
> to "pegs"). From a scientific point of view this appears to be a
> problem since mountains do not prevent the crust from moving over the
> mantle. In fact, it is because of this movement and the resulting
> earthquakes that mountains form. In what sense then is it meant that
> the mountains are "standing firm, lest it should shake with them"? They
> don't seem to be standing firm. They are pushed up, the rocks come
> tumbling down, in some cases, the strata which were originally
> horizontal are now standing vertically - IIIIII - like that.
>
>----------
>
>Your response will be very much appreciated.
>
>Regards,
>Moe S. Jallow
>
>==============================================================================
> mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr Jawara, I want to see your response to the question Moe asked. Since some
members might object to the "islamisation" of the bantaba, could you please
send your reply to my personal address. I know the Qur'an is the absolute
truth. With all the advances in science, we may still not have the capacity
to "see" some statements revealed in the Qur'an 14 centuries ago. I have
always had a strong desire to defend the sciences of the Quran but because
of my limited knowledge of it I could not. So let me hear you please. My
apologies to anyone who object to this.
Mostafa
------------------------------
Date: 23 Feb 1997 17:49:15 +0100
From: "Jobarteh, Momodou" <Momodou.Jobarteh@hordaland.vegvesen.telemax.no>
To: "Gambia-L -Internet... ." <Gambia-l@u.washington.edu> (Return requested)
Subject: Local election
Message-ID: <0456A3310750B001*/c=no/admd=telemax/prmd=vegvesen/o=hordaland/s=Jobarteh/g=Momodou/@MHS>
Content-Identifier: 0456A3310750B001
Content-Return: Allowed
Mime-Version: 1.0
Hello Gambia-L,
I wish to welcome all the new members who joined list.
A referendum for the new Constitution has been made and accepted by the
people. We have had Presidential and Parliamentary elections, but what about
the local election ?
According to the old Constitution, Minister could sack local counsellors
elected by the people. What does the New Constitution say on this point?
Furthermore some military officers are mayors and commissioners. We have now
got civil rule, when are they going to return to barracks so that civil
servants can take over?
Thanks
Alhagi
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 21:07:42 +0000
From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Local election
Message-ID: <19970223201649.AAA26506@LOCALNAME>
On 23 Feb 97 at 17:49, Jobarteh, Momodou wrote:
>
>
> Hello Gambia-L,
> I wish to welcome all the new members who joined list.
> A referendum for the new Constitution has been made and accepted by
> the people. We have had Presidential and Parliamentary elections,
> but what about the local election ? According to the old
> Constitution, Minister could sack local counsellors elected by the
> people. What does the New Constitution say on this point?
> Furthermore some military officers are mayors and commissioners. We
> have now got civil rule, when are they going to return to barracks
> so that civil servants can take over?
>
> Thanks
> Alhagi
Section 193 (1) of the constitution states that, "Local government
administration in The Gambia shall be based on a system of
democratically elected councils with a high degree of local
autonomy."
The constitution, however leaves it to the National assembly to pass
a Bill which if assented to becomes an Act of the National Assembly
to establish councils.
Once the Constitution is in force, the office of Chief,which has been
made vacant by the removal of the previous holder must be filled by
election within one hundred and twenty days or four months after the
date of removal of the chief.
"The election of an Alkalo shall also be by secret ballot."
The government and the National assembly need to work on a Bill as
quickly as possible to ensure the democratization of local government
structures and thus complete the transition to a democratic and
constitutional order.
I hope that the above answered some of the questions you raised.
Peace
Momodou Camara
*******************************************************
http://home3.inet.tele.dk/mcamara
**"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's
possible and suddenly you are doing the impossible"***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 15:17:23 -0600 (CST)
From: Yaya Jallow <yj0001@jove.acs.unt.edu>
To: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Vice-Presidency Issue
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970223145247.4551A-100000@jove.acs.unt.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hello List Members,
Jammeh's stalling tactics in fully implementing the constitution of our
land, can either be read as a blatant attempt by him to fulfill a "quid
pro quo" for his military cohorts or he seriously needs to take a course
in Government 101. As it stands now, he is the only member of the past
military junta who has managed to legitimize his authority, of course by
the help of his cohorts. And they are crying foul now, realizing that in a
constitutional state, governmental positions and authority are mandated by
the "peoples law" and not some arbitrary decrees.
God forbid if this new assembly is to amend a sacred document for the sole
purpose of bowing down to the wishes of few military elites. Otherwise my
fellow Gambians our nation may as well go back to the drawing board for
another constitutional document. Let us hope that our National
assembly will stand above the politics of the Generals and the Captains.
Have a good day.
Yaya
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 22:53:20 +0100
From: "Yusuph Jatta" <Payus@dk-online.dk>
To: <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Sv: New members
Message-ID: <199702232205.OAA18523@mx5.u.washington.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hello Everyone!
My name is Yusuph Jatta Known as Payus Jatta. I am from Serrekunda-Bundung
and had my childhood at Brufut Village. I am now staying in Denmak and have
been here for almost 9 years.
I am happy to be a member of Gambia-L.
Cheers
Payus Jatta
----------
> Fra: Camara, Momodou <momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk>
> Til: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List
<gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
> Emne: New members
> Dato: 20. februar 1997 18:14
>
> Gambia-l,
> Both Yusupha Jatta and Nyakasi Jarju have been added to the list and
> as a custom, we expect to have introductions from them. Welcome to
> the Gambia-l Payus and Nyakasi, please send your introductions to
> the list and we look forward to your contributions.
>
>
> Best regards
> Momodou Camara
>
> *******************************************************
> http://home3.inet.tele.dk/mcamara
>
> **"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's
> possible and suddenly you are doing the impossible"***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 23:42:25 -0500 (EST)
From: SBarry1035@aol.com
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Good to be back
Message-ID: <970223234225_1315840402@emout01.mail.aol.com>
Hello Gambia-l,
It's been a while since I unsubcribed from the list, and I missed every bit
of it.
For the new members or old members with a short memory, my name is
Sal Barry. I attended Gambia high/St. Aug.I Grew up in Banjul . I went to
Arkansas State University where I graduated with a Bachelors in finance and
banking.
Looking forward to participating in future discussions.
Good to be back.
Sal Barry
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 23:57:45 -0600 (CST)
From: umjawara@cc.UManitoba.CA
To: Gambia-l <Gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Response to Moe & others
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970223222820.18336C-100000@castor.cc.umanitoba.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
Hello Brothers and Sisters,
=09I decided to write this response to Gambia -L because there are a=20
lot more people interseted in hearing the Qur=E1n's point of view in=20
geology of mountains. I appologise if this isn't appropriate. Moe, the=20
verse that you mentioned in chapter 21, verse 31 is actually a=20
continuation of the preceding verse. That verse, number 30 contains=20
information which was only discovered in 1973 (in science) and a nobel=20
prize was awarded to the two scientists that did the research. The verse=
=20
reads "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were=20
joined together as one united piece, then We clove them asunder, and made=
=20
from water every living thing? Will they not then believe?" The Qur=E1n=
=20
reveals the origin of the universe - how it began from one piece. =20
Additionally,Proof of the fact that all life originated from water was=20
not available until the invention of the microscope. People had to wait=20
to find out that cytoplasm, the basic substance of the cell, is made up=20
of 80% water.
=09Verse 31 reads "And we have placed on the earth firm Mountains, lest=20
it should shake with them......" "them" here refers back to "they" at=20
the end of the preceding verse, meaning "unbelivers" (it might be=20
mankind in general).
=09I have a book regarding geology and the Qur=E1n but unfortunately I=20
don't have it handy right now so I'll just give you a partial answer=20
to your question at this point. A student in geology once told me that=20
mountains, even though they form at weak spots help stabilize that=20
part of the earth. A valcano for example forms due to extremely high=20
temperatures in the earth's core and the lava finds the weakest spot on=20
the surface of the earth to come out. This results in the formation of=20
a mountain over time. A great quantity of the lava solidifies=20
under the ground surface and therefore the whole mountain acts like a=20
"peg" as described in chapter 78, verse 7.
=09An interesting thing about the Qur=E1n is that it constantly advices=20
the reader to ask those who have knowledge if they want to know more=20
about what it says or are in doubt. A few years ago a group of men in=20
Saudi Arabia collected all the verses in the Qur=E1n which discuss=20
embryology. They chose, as it happened, a non-Muslim who is a=20
proffessor of embryology (Dr. keith Moore). They invited him to Saudi=20
and said, "this is what the Qur=E1n says about your subject, is it=20
true?" He was so surprised at what he found in the Qur=E1n. At one item=20
in particular - the Qur=E1n's description of the human being as a=20
"leach-like clot"(alaqah) at one stage - was new to him; but when he=20
checked on it, he found that it was true and so he added it to his=20
book. He went to the zoology department and asked for a picture of=20
a leach. When he found that it looked just like a human embryo, he=20
decided to include both pictures in one of his textbooks. I can go=20
on forever! I will certainly post the names of these books and=20
some url's where you can get more information. =20
ASSALAMU ALAIKUM (PIECE)
pl. Moe, I can mail you some piblications if you're interested in stuff=20
like this. Just send me your mailing address.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 09:11:51 +0000
From: Abdou Gibba <Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: We must reclaim our nation
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19970224101117.200f4420@alfred.uib.no>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 03:31 23.02.97 -0500, K Touray wrote:
>While i am not advocating an outright armed insurrection against our current
>leadership, I would urge a strong and sustained civil disobedience structured
>to chokeoff the operations of the gov't. Streaming in tens of thousands of
>demonstrators to the capital everyday would quickly overwhelm authorities
>because they will know that shooting that many people into submittion is not
>a viable option. Brutality only succeeds when it is done on a relatively few
>to scare the rest. But what can a few hundred well armed soldiers do to tens
>of thousands of people overflowing office buildings and public places for
>days? Nothing.
Mr. Touray, I suggest you revisit Halifa Sallah's letter to the President
and Dr. S.G. Kammara's cautious contribution. These are the kind of hands we
need to have a civil and just society rather than advocating for some civil
unrest.
I don't think our country can afford a civil unrest at this point after two
years of political and economic "uncertainty". The scrutiny of our political
situation should be taken in a such cautious manner as Halifa and some
members of Gambia-l (Dr. Kamara, for instance) tend to be doing. In this way
piecemeal developments could achieve the type of political maturity we are
all yearning for.
Do you really see a civil unrest as a reality in our country? Will you be on
the ground while the unrest is going on or will you be watching or listening
to CNN, BBC.... or reading news from Gambia-l on the developments if such an
unrest should emerge? What will be the consequences of such an unrest, at
least for those back home, socio-economically? Would the state of our
political affairs not be worse than what it is as you would like us to
believe? Such questions must be asked when one is agitating such moves.
While we caution the moves of our politicians without rest, let's just hope
and pray for the best outcome rather than advocate for some unrest which's
magnitude we don't even have the clue on. Civil unrest in all societies has
always been the very last solution to chronic political problems. Please
don't tell me that we have come to that stage.
LET US SEARCH FOR BETTER SOILUTIONS.
***************************************************************
* SI JAMMA!! KAIRABA KONOH!! DI MASUMEH!!..... IN PEACE!! *
* ::)))Abdou Oujimai *
* ------------------------------------------------------- *
* Centre for Studies of Environment and Resources *
* University of Bergen *
* Bergen High-Tech. Centre Ltd. *
* N-5020 BERGEN *
* NORWAY *
* *
* Tel: +47 55584214 Fax: +47 55589687 *
* Email: Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no *
***************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 16:36:49 +0000
From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Fwd: UNITED NATIONS: U.S. Continues to Grab Majpr U.N Contracts
Message-ID: <19970224153452.AAA6848@LOCALNAME>
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Copyright 1997 InterPress Service, all rights reserved.
Worldwide distribution via the APC networks.
*** 16-Feb-97 ***
Title: UNITED NATIONS: U.S. Continues to Grab Major U.N. Contracts
By Thalif Deen
UNITED NATIONS, Feb 16 (IPS) - The biggest single deadbeat in the
United Nations is grabbing lucrative contracts offered by the world
body, according to figures released by the U.N. Association of USA
(UNA-USA).
UNA-USA, a New York-based non-governmental body, says its latest
data shows the United States was the number one supplier of goods
and services to the world body in 1995 for the second year running.
About 18 percent of all U.N. contracts went to United States which
remained the largest U.N. debtor, with an outstanding bill of
nearly 1.6 billion dollars. The U.S. supplied 658 million dollars'
worth of goods and services in 1995 compared with 448 million
dollars by Italy, 171 million dollars by Britain, 137 million
dollars by France, and 134 million dollars by Germany.
These U.N. purchases included food, logistics services, drugs,
medical equipment, sea and air freight, vehicles, vaccines,
computers and software, contraceptives, and communications
equipment.
Ralph Cwerman of UNA-USA told IPS that the U.S. Congress, which
has been withholding funds from the world body, was greatly
interested in the procurement figures. ''Simply put, U.N.
procurement contracts mean American jobs,'' he said.
Some of the lawmakers, Cwerman said, were not even aware of the
contracts won by their constituents. For example, the state of New
York alone won 140.4 million dollars in contracts in the U.N.
Procurement and Transportation Division.
The Association says the real figure for U.S. sales to the U.N.
system, however, continues to hover around one billion dollars.
''This difference (from the 658 million dollar figure) is
attributed to the fact that U.N. statisticians do not count the
value of purchases from U.S. subsidiaries in foreign countries as
sales from the United States,'' the UNA-USA says in the latest
edition of its annual publication 'How to do Business with the
United Nations'.
According to the payment scale at the United Nations, the
United States is supposed to pay 25 percent of the 1.3-billion-
dollar annual budget. But because it withholds funds, Washington
really pays only about 12 percent.
According to a U.N. system-wide breakdown provided by UNA-USA,
Washington got a return of about 41 cents on every dollar it
contributed to the world body. But on peacekeeping, the return was
about 61 cents for every dollar.
The 15-member European Union (EU) has argued that if a member-
state does not pay its dues, it has no moral right to profit from
the United Nations. The EU accused Washington last year of making
money from the United Nations even while falling behind in its
financial obligations to the cash-strapped world body.
Ambassador Paolo Fulci of Italy said U.S. payments to the
world body were more than offset by the earnings from goods and
services supplied to U.N. agencies by U.S. companies.
''With American arrears mounting, Italian legislators are
asking why they should pay their dues to the United Nations on
time, while the leader and its biggest procurements beneficiary
was not doing so,'' he said.
Urging a system of incentives and penalties to resolve its
financial crisis, the EU wants the United Nations to bar suppliers
>From countries in arrears to the world body.
But the United States says any attempts to penalise defaulting
members would be a violation of the U.N. charter which guarantees
the equality of all states before the world body.
''The award of contracts should be based on objective
commercial criteria,'' says U.S. diplomat William Grant.
''Imposing a penalty on member-states would go beyond the
Charter.''
Ghanaian diplomat Morgan Brown told a U.N. Committee last year
that his country would seek a review of the awarding of contracts
in the U.N. system.
''It is glaring that a few of the defaulting states are reaping
>From the organisation, far more than they are giving to it,'' he
said. ''Those who come to equity must come with clean hands. Thus,
those who want contracts from the United Nations must ensure that
they are not indebted to the organisation, at least as far as
their assessed dues are concerned.''
Sandrine Tesner of UNA-USA says it would not be feasible to
shut out U.S. companies from the U.N. procurement process. Tesner
says that although the United States withdrew from the U.N.
Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organisation (UNESCO) in
1984, the Paris-based agency still buys most of its goods and
services from Washington.
''They need extremely specialised computers which are available
only in the United States,'' she pointed out.
Of a total of 15.4 million dollars in UNESCO contracts in 1995,
about 6.8 million dollars went to Washington. France was next with
1.4 million dollars.
The bottom line, says Cwerman, is that it is the United Nations
that needs the United States - not the other way around.
(END/IPS/TD/YJC/97)
Origin: Rome/UNITED NATIONS/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 16:36:48 +0000
From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Fwd: SIERRA LEONE-POPULATION: Returning
Message-ID: <19970224153452.AAB6848@LOCALNAME>
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Copyright 1997 InterPress Service, all rights reserved.
Worldwide distribution via the APC networks.
*** 17-Feb-97 ***
Title: SIERRA LEONE-POPULATION: Returning to an Uncertain Future
By Lansana Fofana
FREETOWN, Feb 17 (IPS) - The thousands of former refugees who have
been returning here this month had little choice but to take up
offers by the UNHCR and their government to repatriate them.
Not that they were forced -- the repatriation was voluntary --
but the country they have left, Liberia, is hardly safer than
their own since it is still struggling to achieve peace following
a civil war that lasted from 1989 to 1996. In mid-1996, Monrovia,
where most of the 120,000 Sierra Leonean refugees in Liberia are
concentrated, was hit by fighting between two rebel factions
''I decided to return home because life is no better in
Liberian camps,'' says 46-year-old Baindu Sannoh, one of about
2,000 Sierra Leoneans airlifted and boated in from Liberia over
the past two weeks. After all, I hope to go back to farming, even
though our family home was burnt down by the rebels.''
Over half a million Sierra Leoneans are scattered in
neighbouring Guinea and Liberia, Cote d'Ivoire, Gambia, Senegal
and Mali. They fled to those countries to escape the five-year war
waged by the Revolutionary United Front (RUF) rebels against the
state.
The two sides signed a cease-fire in November 1996, but it has
been violated on a many occasions, a fact that had worried some of
the organisers of this month's repatriation, conducted by the UN
High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) in collaboration with the
Sierra Leonean government.
''We were not entirely sure about how it would turn out given
the bursts of skirmishes in some parts of the country,'' said
Joseph Cline-Thomas, one of the co-ordinators of the repatriation.
''But, on the whole, it's so far been going good.''
Officials of the Ministry of Rehabilitation, Reconstruction and
Resettlement -- the government department partnering the UNHCR in
the repatriation drive -- told IPS Friday that all was set for the
return of the many Sierra Leoneans who fled their country over the
past five years.
One official said a batch of refugees from Mali ''is due to
arrive anytime from today (Friday) under the auspices of the
UNHCR'' while some of the 200,000-odd Sierra Leoneans housed in a
camp in Guinea were next in line.
The UNHCR's country representative in Sierra Leone, Akilaja
Akiwumi, said bringing back all the refugees from the six
countries is expected to take a year. The UNHCR official added
that, having been informed by the military high command that 90
percent of the country was now safe, the UN agency had sent out
appeals to the Sierra Leoneans to return home.
''The repatriation of refugees from Monrovia would send the
correct signal to all the refugees in neighbouring countries,''
Akiwumi said.
But some of the returnees are worried about their future in
Sierra Leone, especially since their homes and villages were burnt
or pillaged by rebels and renegade soldiers who took advantage of
the civil war to attack and plunder settlements as well as road
convoys.
John Bona, who left his home in the eastern district of
Kailahun a few years ago because of rebel attacks, complained that
the supplies he and the other returnees received from aid agencies
were not enough for people turned into paupers by the war.
''Where would I sleep with my family of 10?'' he asked. ''Do I
have to reside in a refugee camp again in my own country?''
He argued that ''donors'' should help rebuild the returnees'
burnt homes and supply them with farming tools and seeds. ''This
would help us forget the psychological traumas associated with the
war and we would be able to resettle,'' he said.
Hundreds of people repatriated this month have already left the
Waterloo Camp -- 25 kms east of here and where the returnees are
being accomodated -- for their home towns and villages in the
southeast and north of the country. The elderly and other
vulnerable groups such as children receive food rations from the
World Food Programme (WFP) and the International Committee of the
Red Cross in collaboration with local relief organisations.
One of the returnees' biggest fears is that they may once again
be affected by the insecurity in some parts of the country,
especially the north and the east.
In Kailahun, which the RUF claims as its headquarters, there
have been reports of clashes recently between the rebels and
Kamajors, local hunters who fought alongside the national army
during the civil war.
People who have gone back to their homes in the north have
complained of organised attacks on their villages and the theft of
their property.
''What seems to be happening,'' says Peter Kana, a political
analyst here, ''is that criminals in the countryside are
organising gangs and attacking returnes for their basic
possessions. This has to be halted by the government if the
returnees are to have faith in the whole process.''
(END/IPS/LF/KB/97)
*******************************************************
http://home3.inet.tele.dk/mcamara
**"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's
possible and suddenly you are doing the impossible"***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 16:48:26 +0100
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Nordam?= <asbjorn.nordam@dif.dk>
To: "'gambia'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: FW: a booklet on FGM
Message-ID: <c=DK%a=_%p=DIF%l=DKDIFS02-970224154826Z-281@dkdifs02.dif.dk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry I made a mistake. Here it is. Asbj=F8rn
>----------
>From: Asbj=F8rn Nordam
>Sent: 19. February 1997 11.16
>To: 'gambia'
>Subject: a booklet on FGM
>
>Just a short comment on FGM. I read all the comments and information =
given
>here, and I just want to tell those of you who are interested, that the
>danish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, DANIDA has published a small =
booklet 45
>pages on that topic:
> "Guidelines on the Prevention of Female Genital Mutilation" ISBN 87 - =
7265
>- 359 0
>
>The Content is: 1. guidelines 2. Background information Appendixes and
>Bibliography, in which I can see that Heidi Skramstad "The Fluid =
Meanings of
>Female Circumcision in a Multiethnic Context in Gambia." DERAP, Chr.
>Michelsen Institute, Norway, 1990 is included.
>
>On the list of selected NGOs and advocacy groups involved in the =
prevention
>of FGM under Gambia: Mrs. Amie Joof-Cole, GAMCOTRAP, P.O. Box Serre =
Kunda
>2854, Kanifing phone: (0033) 143481087
>
>I=B4m sorry that I have no access to a scanner, which could be usefull =
for
>those of you you are interested in this booklet. Then I could transfer =
it.
>But you can get it from:
>
>Bech Distribution a/s, Himmelevvej 2, P.O.Box 318, DK 4000 Roskilde, =
Denmark.
>fax (+45 ) 46 75 32 22
>
>It=B4s free and I thing it=B4s very informative.
>
>It opens with a quotation =20
>"Female genital mutilation will not be eradicated unless those who are
>fighting for change understand the deeply felt beleifs of the people =
who
>practise it " Nahid Toubiam, 1993
>
>
>Asbj=F8rn Nordam
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 17:02:31 +0100 (MET)
From: Gabriel Jatta <gabriel.jatta@helsingborg.se>
To: Gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: introduction
Message-ID: <199702241602.RAA25220@hbgstad.helsingborg.se>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
My name is gabou jatta and i=B4ve just been added to the list. i=B4m living=
in
sweden on a beautiful little town call helsingborg. i was born in Banjul,
but did most of my growing up in the world most wonderful town, BAKAU. i=B4m
sure it=B4s going to be a pleasure sharing views with you.
I thank you Matarr Jeng and Modou Camara for your efforts.
Much respect to the co-ordinators of this list.
Respect!
gabou.=20
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 11:20:20 -0500 (EST)
From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Good to be back
Message-ID: <9702241620.AA35542@st6000.sct.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Tom, welcome back and congrats. for the Bachelors....
Regards,
Moe S. Jallow
==============================================================================
mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 11:59:42 -0600
From: Mostafa Jersey Marong <mbmarong@students.wisc.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Response to Moe & others
Message-ID: <199702241804.MAA47706@audumla.students.wisc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At 11:57 PM 2/23/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Hello Brothers and Sisters,
> I decided to write this response to Gambia -L because there are a=20
>lot more people interseted in hearing the Qur=E1n's point of view in=20
>geology of mountains. I appologise if this isn't appropriate. Moe, the=20
>verse that you mentioned in chapter 21, verse 31 is actually a=20
>continuation of the preceding verse. That verse, number 30 contains=20
>information which was only discovered in 1973 (in science) and a nobel=20
>prize was awarded to the two scientists that did the research. The verse=
=20
>reads "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were=20
>joined together as one united piece, then We clove them asunder, and made=
=20
>from water every living thing? Will they not then believe?" The Qur=E1n=
=20
>reveals the origin of the universe - how it began from one piece. =20
>Additionally,Proof of the fact that all life originated from water was=20
>not available until the invention of the microscope. People had to wait=20
>to find out that cytoplasm, the basic substance of the cell, is made up=20
>of 80% water.
> Verse 31 reads "And we have placed on the earth firm Mountains, lest=20
>it should shake with them......" "them" here refers back to "they" at=20
>the end of the preceding verse, meaning "unbelivers" (it might be=20
>mankind in general).
> I have a book regarding geology and the Qur=E1n but unfortunately I=20
>don't have it handy right now so I'll just give you a partial answer=20
>to your question at this point. A student in geology once told me that=20
>mountains, even though they form at weak spots help stabilize that=20
>part of the earth. A valcano for example forms due to extremely high=20
>temperatures in the earth's core and the lava finds the weakest spot on=20
>the surface of the earth to come out. This results in the formation of=20
>a mountain over time. A great quantity of the lava solidifies=20
>under the ground surface and therefore the whole mountain acts like a=20
>"peg" as described in chapter 78, verse 7.
> An interesting thing about the Qur=E1n is that it constantly advices=20
>the reader to ask those who have knowledge if they want to know more=20
>about what it says or are in doubt. A few years ago a group of men in=20
>Saudi Arabia collected all the verses in the Qur=E1n which discuss=20
>embryology. They chose, as it happened, a non-Muslim who is a=20
>proffessor of embryology (Dr. keith Moore). They invited him to Saudi=20
>and said, "this is what the Qur=E1n says about your subject, is it=20
>true?" He was so surprised at what he found in the Qur=E1n. At one item=20
>in particular - the Qur=E1n's description of the human being as a=20
>"leach-like clot"(alaqah) at one stage - was new to him; but when he=20
>checked on it, he found that it was true and so he added it to his=20
>book. He went to the zoology department and asked for a picture of=20
>a leach. When he found that it looked just like a human embryo, he=20
>decided to include both pictures in one of his textbooks. I can go=20
>on forever! I will certainly post the names of these books and=20
>some url's where you can get more information. =20
>
>ASSALAMU ALAIKUM (PIECE)
>
>pl. Moe, I can mail you some piblications if you're interested in stuff=20
>like this. Just send me your mailing address.
Brother!
ALLAHU AKBAR, ALLAHU AKBAR!!!
Please send me the URLs.
Mostafa
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 13:15:01 -0500 (EST)
From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Is Western-Style Democracy suited for Africa?
Message-ID: <9702241815.AA51374@st6000.sct.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hello Gambia-l,
Below is an excerpt from David Lamb, an author of the Africans and the
Arabs who has traveled extensively and lived for many years in Africa as a
correspondent and bureau chief for the Los Angeles Times.
When asked:
"Is a Western-style democracy pertinent to the needs of Africa?"
He had this to say:
" I don't think so. Not now, anyway. The splintered, struggling Africa of
today cannot afford the luxury of multiparties and independent presses and
honest debate. In countries where national goals are not clearly defined,
such freedoms enable the various factions to fight for self-interests at
the expense of majority concerns. National Institutions are not strong
enough to withsttand these pressures. And Governments are not cohesive
enough enough to endure forces motivated by anything less than
nationalistic concerns.
" At this stage most African countries are best served by benign dictators.
Democracy can come later, if it is to come at all. But for now democracy
is no more a pancea for Africa's ills than is communism. What Africa needs
to develop is an AFRICAN political system, imported from neither East nor
West, that combines elements of capitalism and socialism, both of which
are inherent to the African character. It should include two concepts that
Africans today mistakenly view as contradictory - economic incentive and
social justice.
" The pity of contemporary Africa is that few presidents are secure enough
to pursue policies or experiment with systems that might diminish their own
power. And fewer still displayed benevolence or wisdom in carrying out the
affairs of the state. The result is that many countries are run by men who
are little more than clerks with guns."
- - - - - -
How true can this be? It's certainly nothing to be proud of but somewhere
between the lines there is proof of some truth. Because of the high degree
of illitracy in Africa, these problems will not be easily wiped out but I
would dare hope for a better Africa. Certainly no one could fault the
society that the men on top created but everyone has an ample share of the
blame. Until we can win the fight against the our three enemies, namely,
poverty, ignorance and diseases, I am tempted to agree with Julius Nyerere
who once said, "Let others go to the moon, We must work to feed ourselves
first".
Any comments?
Regards,
Moe S. Jallow
==============================================================================
mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 10:55:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Debbie Proctor <proctord@u.washington.edu>
To: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Response to Moe & others
Message-ID: <Pine.PTX.3.95c.970224105500.23789K-100000@carson.u.washington.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Thank you for sending your reply to all.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Debbie Proctor, Administrator U of W Conference Housing
(206) 543-8443 McCarty Hall, Box 354471
(206) 543-4094 Seattle, Wa. 98l95
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 13:53:21 -0500 (EST)
From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Response to Moe & others
Message-ID: <9702241853.AA56660@st6000.sct.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Mr. Jawara, you wrote:
> >Hello Brothers and Sisters,
> > I decided to write this response to Gambia -L because there are
> >lot more people interseted in hearing the Qur=E1n's point of view
> >geology of mountains. I appologise if this isn't appropriate. Moe, the
> >verse that you mentioned in chapter 21, verse 31 is actually
> >continuation of the preceding verse. That verse, number 30 contains
> >information which was only discovered in 1973 (in science) and a nobel
> >prize was awarded to the two scientists that did the research.
> >
> >pl. Moe, I can mail you some piblications if you're interested in stuff=20
> >like this. Just send me your mailing address.
Brother Jawara, thank you very much for your educative reponse. I must say
your knowledge of the Quran is indeed overwhelming. I would love to get
any publications that you may want to share. My address is below.
Once again, thank you for sharing the imformation with us.
Wa Salaam
Regards,
Moe S. Jallow
861 Franklin Road 18-8
Marietta, GA 30067
U.S.A
==============================================================================
mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 23:18:18 +0300
From: BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH <KOLLS567@QATAR.NET.QA>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Is Western-Style Democracy suited for Africa?
Message-ID: <312F728A.2E34@QATAR.NET.QA>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Modou Jallow wrote:
>=20
> Hello Gambia-l,
>=20
> Below is an excerpt from David Lamb, an author of the Africans and the
> Arabs who has traveled extensively and lived for many years in Africa a=
s a
> correspondent and bureau chief for the Los Angeles Times.
>=20
> When asked:
>=20
> "Is a Western-style democracy pertinent to the needs of Africa?"
>=20
> He had this to say:
>=20
> " I don't think so. Not now, anyway. The splintered, struggling Africa =
of
> today cannot afford the luxury of multiparties and independent presses =
and
> honest debate. In countries where national goals are not clearly define=
d,
> such freedoms enable the various factions to fight for self-interests a=
t
> the expense of majority concerns. National Institutions are not strong
> enough to withsttand these pressures. And Governments are not cohesive
> enough enough to endure forces motivated by anything less than
> nationalistic concerns.
>=20
> " At this stage most African countries are best served by benign dictat=
ors.
> Democracy can come later, if it is to come at all. But for now democrac=
y
> is no more a pancea for Africa's ills than is communism. What Africa ne=
eds
> to develop is an AFRICAN political system, imported from neither East n=
or
> West, that combines elements of capitalism and socialism, both of which
> are inherent to the African character. It should include two concepts t=
hat
> Africans today mistakenly view as contradictory - economic incentive a=
nd
> social justice.
>=20
> " The pity of contemporary Africa is that few presidents are secure eno=
ugh
> to pursue policies or experiment with systems that might diminish their=
own
> power. And fewer still displayed benevolence or wisdom in carrying out =
the
> affairs of the state. The result is that many countries are run by men =
who
> are little more than clerks with guns."
>=20
> - - - - - -
>=20
> How true can this be? It's certainly nothing to be proud of but somewhe=
re
> between the lines there is proof of some truth. Because of the high deg=
ree
> of illitracy in Africa, these problems will not be easily wiped out but=
I
> would dare hope for a better Africa. Certainly no one could fault the
> society that the men on top created but everyone has an ample share of =
the
> blame. Until we can win the fight against the our three enemies, namely=
,
> poverty, ignorance and diseases, I am tempted to agree with Julius Nyer=
ere
> who once said, "Let others go to the moon, We must work to feed ourselv=
es
> first".
>=20
> Any comments?
>=20
> Regards,
> Moe S. Jallow
>=20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
> mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Mr.Jallow!!
I have read this Man's book,the Africans, more than six times.As far
as the the answers to these particular questions are concerned,I am much
more inclined to agree with him.But as far as the rest of the book is
concerned,there are lots of analytical errors.In
many of the cases,he was absolutely incapable of comprehending and
explaining why black africans behave the way they do in many instances
esp.if such behavoral paterns have no paralelles in Anglo-Saxon
culture.Basil Davidson is much more profound and much closer to the the
Black African reality.
Regards Basss!!=20
--=20
SZDD=88=F0'3Af=A8=03
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 23:36:43 +0300
From: BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH <KOLLS567@QATAR.NET.QA>
To: GAMBIA-L@U.WASHINGTON.EDU
Subject: (Part1) POLYGAMY IN PERSPECTIVE!!
Message-ID: <312F76DB.5432@QATAR.NET.QA>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH wrote:
>=20
> "The function of the ethical system in any given society is to sustain
>=20
> the life of that particular society.But such socially immanent ethics i=
s
>=20
> also in the interest of the individual;since the society is
>=20
> structured in a certain way,which he as an individual cannot change,his
>=20
> individual interest is bound up with the society's"
>=20
> ERIC FROMM
>=20
> Before we can fairly and objectively look at both sides of the argument
>=20
> about POLYGAMY,
>=20
> we need to remember two concepts here,namely,COLLECTIVISM and
>=20
> INDIVIDUALISM.Gambian and African culture in general belong to the firs=
t
> category,
>=20
> whereas the so-called free world belong to the second.So even though a
>=20
> society that is collectivistic may not be mindless of
>=20
> the interest of the individual,it tends to give precedence to the
>=20
> welfare of the society as a whole whenever there is a clash between
>=20
> SOCIETY'S interest and that of the INDIVIDUAL ;and in an
>=20
> INDIVIDUALISTIC culture,the very opposite is the case. In a
>=20
> collectivistic culture like GAMBIA,Polygamy, even though hurtful to som=
e
>=20
> men,women and children,it can,after a proper analysis,be shown that it
>=20
> has many good
>=20
> qualities that make GAMBIA what it is today,and a lot of that is
>=20
> good.And in an Individualistic America,even though the freedom to buy
>=20
> and bear arms can and does lead to the premature and senseless
>=20
> distruction of many young lives,the very notion that the
>=20
> individual's freedom must be protected no matter
>=20
> what,is also what
>=20
> makes America what it is,and a lot of that too is good.
>=20
> It is a well documented fact that, except for a very few places, the
> mode
>=20
> of marriage in
>=20
> all human societies around the world was initially polygamous,and that
>=20
> cannot be surprising given the very simple fact that the number of
> female
>=20
> children that are born in any given society is almost always higher tha=
n
>=20
> the number of male children;that,in addition to the fact that women on
>=20
> the average live longer than men because of their
>=20
> stronger immunity system than that of men.So,under ideal conditions,the
>=20
> social instituitions that evolve in any given society do so as a direct
>=20
> response to the needs
>=20
> of that particular society.But whereas the basic facts about human
>=20
> beings are the same everywhere, the physical and material conditions
>=20
> that surround any group of human beings living together tend to differ
>=20
> from one place to another,and it is the interaction that result between
>=20
> the people in a given society and their relatively unique physical
>=20
> environment that must account for the difference between the social
>=20
> instituitions of any two societies.So that even if both America and
>=20
> Gambia initially improvisionally evolved polygamy as a mode of
>=20
> marriage,America may unconsciously realise that this system needs some
>=20
> modifications to suit its own needs since it is somehow not perfectly s=
uited=20
to the kind of
>=20
> life it wants to lead,and ,on the other hand,Gambia could decide to kee=
p
>=20
> it for the very opposite reason.This,in short,is the kind of analysis I
>=20
> want to use to explore this very Gambian and African subject called
>=20
> POLYGAMY.
>=20
> But before delving into the social and historical mechanisms that make
>=20
> POLYGAMY so African
>=20
> and so enduring in that culture,I want to dispel few misconceptions
>=20
> here.It is true that Domestic Violence takes place in some Polygamous
>=20
> relationships,but the notion that
>=20
> Polygamy per se is responsible for it is a distorted logic,you can
>=20
> easily refute such arguments by simply looking at the frightening
>=20
> statistics of Domestic Abuse in the predominantly monogamous
>=20
> societies.In 1992,for example,190,000 British women suffered
>=20
> various kinds of physical abuse from their mates,starting from verbal
>=20
> abuse, to a blow to the jaw, to murder.And the British numbers are a
>=20
> picnic compared to the North American ones.It is also inaccurate to
>=20
> assume that it is mostly the more-than-one-sex-partner aspect of it tha=
t
>=20
> draws most Gambian men to it; because ,as any womanizer would tell
> you,its far more
> cheaper and even exciting to be legally responsible for only one woman
> in your
> home and then use your extra time and resources to get female playmates
> outside
> from time to time on a temporary basis,and it provides you with more
> options than only four.It is also a gross misconception to assume that
> if given the chance all Gambian women would opt for a Monogamous mode o=
f
> marriage,because each and everyone of us knows at least one instance
> whereby a Gambian woman would be presented with the chance of marrying
> either a single man or an already married man in which she would decide
> to
> throw her lot with the married man.That is because some Gambian women
> simply love and are excited by the mischievous pampering that both the
> husband and society confers on the second wife(SATE),and others still
> love and appreciate the honour and respectability that automatically
> come with being the first wife(AAWO),and being the mother of the first
> born and heir of the husband.And ,finally,the generally held view that =
a
> Gambian man would start looking for a second spouse as soon as he can a=
fford it
> is simply wrong.Because ,its probably the other way round,most of those
> who can afford are very reluctant to do it for the reason mentioned
> above, and many of them eventually do it as a result of pressure either
> from their mothers or sisters.And many who jump to it
> are mostly materially and morally ill equipped for it.
>=20
> Still,before coming closer to home,I need to mention a couple of things
> about MONOGAMY.
> There is nothing inherently Good in monogamy that makes it better than
> Polygamy.The allure and attractiveness of monogamy lies mainly in the
> fact that it is the mode of marriage practised by the most powerful and
> affluent countries of the world and that
> polygamy would have had similar respectability if it were the mode of
> marriage in America ,for example.Both Polygamy and Monogamy are
> defective and both of them are profoundly unsuited for Human beings,but
> ,for some reasons, the human mind has still not been able to replace
> them with a better one.Monogamy is based on the assumption that a
> particular individual can love just one person and keep on loving that
> one person for the rest of his or her life,which is definitely not true
> for the simple reason that the average life span of love,(sexual
> love),is from four to six years.The dark side of Polygamy on the other
> hand is that it unfairly gives more than one sex partners to the man
> without providing similar options for the women.It may be true that
> women in general have a tendency to be more monogamous than men,but it
> is still not inconceivable that some of them would still like to have
> the same kind of options available to them as the men.But all of these
> less than perfect forms of relationships
> would have been totally unnecessary if it had not been for the fact tha=
t
> it takes the Human child at least eighteen eternal years before he/she
> could fend for herself,and if we contrast that with the relatively shor=
t
> period of time it takes the offsprings of our lower cousins,the other
> primates,we could see why it became necessary for humans to sign some
> kind of contract of a longterm committment whenever a man and a woman
> wanted to have a relationship which could result in procreaion.So,if th=
e
> development,bringing up and teaching of the human child were that
> quick,the need to
> stick to one partner for one's whole life would not have arisen,and one
> would have been
> able to change one's lover and sexual partner perhaps on every social
> occasion,that would have been closer and much truthful to human nature.=
So,the
> unnatural and defective nature of both POLYGAMY and MONOGAMY come from
> the simple fact
> that they are the two sides of the same coin and the name of that coin
> is MARRIAGE.And
> as we explained above,Marriage is very unnatural and alien to human
> nature.
>=20
>=20
> To BE CONTINUED ....
Regards Basss!!
--=20
SZDD=88=F0'3Af=A8=03
------------------------------
Date: 24 Feb 1997 23:18:43 +0100
From: "Jobarteh, Momodou" <Momodou.Jobarteh@hordaland.vegvesen.telemax.no>
To: "Gambia-L -Internet... ." <Gambia-l@u.washington.edu> (Return requested)
Subject: Re: Local election
Message-ID: <07034331213C3005*/c=no/admd=telemax/prmd=vegvesen/o=hordaland/s=Jobarteh/g=Momodou/@MHS>
Content-Identifier: 07034331213C3005
Content-Return: Allowed
Mime-Version: 1.0
Momodou wrote:
> Once the Constitution is in force, the office of Chief,which has been
> made vacant by the removal of the previous holder must be filled by
> election within one hundred and twenty days or four months after the
> date of removal of the chief.
>
> "The election of an Alkalo shall also be by secret ballot."
______________________________________________________________________
You mention that only through the removal of the office of Chief can he be
replaced. The question is who is responsible for the removal of the Chief?
Seeing as the people have elected this Chief surely it must also be the
people who are responsible for his removal, except in special circumstances?
What type of circumstances would warrant his removal by other than the
people?
The election of an Alkalo cannot lead to a removal unless there are good
grounds because he is elected by the people.
Thanks
Alhagi
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 14:28:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Ylva Hernlund <yher@u.washington.edu>
To: BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH <KOLLS567@QATAR.NET.QA>
Cc: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>, ;
Subject: Re: Is Western-Style Democracy suited for Africa?
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95b.970224142728.34004A-100000@dante04.u.washington.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
Somewhat related...I am wondering if anyone has read and has reactions to
Jean-Francois Bayart's "The State in Africa: The Politics of the Belly"
Ylva
On Sat, 24 Feb 1996, BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH wrote:
> Modou Jallow wrote:
> >=20
> > Hello Gambia-l,
> >=20
> > Below is an excerpt from David Lamb, an author of the Africans and the
> > Arabs who has traveled extensively and lived for many years in Africa a=
s a
> > correspondent and bureau chief for the Los Angeles Times.
> >=20
> > When asked:
> >=20
> > "Is a Western-style democracy pertinent to the needs of Africa?"
> >=20
> > He had this to say:
> >=20
> > " I don't think so. Not now, anyway. The splintered, struggling Africa =
of
> > today cannot afford the luxury of multiparties and independent presses =
and
> > honest debate. In countries where national goals are not clearly define=
d,
> > such freedoms enable the various factions to fight for self-interests a=
t
> > the expense of majority concerns. National Institutions are not strong
> > enough to withsttand these pressures. And Governments are not cohesive
> > enough enough to endure forces motivated by anything less than
> > nationalistic concerns.
> >=20
> > " At this stage most African countries are best served by benign dictat=
ors.
> > Democracy can come later, if it is to come at all. But for now democrac=
y
> > is no more a pancea for Africa's ills than is communism. What Africa ne=
eds
> > to develop is an AFRICAN political system, imported from neither East n=
or
> > West, that combines elements of capitalism and socialism, both of which
> > are inherent to the African character. It should include two concepts t=
hat
> > Africans today mistakenly view as contradictory - economic incentive a=
nd
> > social justice.
> >=20
> > " The pity of contemporary Africa is that few presidents are secure eno=
ugh
> > to pursue policies or experiment with systems that might diminish their=
own
> > power. And fewer still displayed benevolence or wisdom in carrying out =
the
> > affairs of the state. The result is that many countries are run by men =
who
> > are little more than clerks with guns."
> >=20
> > - - - - - -
> >=20
> > How true can this be? It's certainly nothing to be proud of but somewhe=
re
> > between the lines there is proof of some truth. Because of the high deg=
ree
> > of illitracy in Africa, these problems will not be easily wiped out but=
I
> > would dare hope for a better Africa. Certainly no one could fault the
> > society that the men on top created but everyone has an ample share of =
the
> > blame. Until we can win the fight against the our three enemies, namely=
,
> > poverty, ignorance and diseases, I am tempted to agree with Julius Nyer=
ere
> > who once said, "Let others go to the moon, We must work to feed ourselv=
es
> > first".
> >=20
> > Any comments?
> >=20
> > Regards,
> > Moe S. Jallow
> >=20
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
> Mr.Jallow!!
> =09=09I have read this Man's book,the Africans, more than six times.As fa=
r
> as the the answers to these particular questions are concerned,I am much
> more inclined to agree with him.But as far as the rest of the book is
> concerned,there are lots of analytical errors.In
> many of the cases,he was absolutely incapable of comprehending and
> explaining why black africans behave the way they do in many instances
> esp.if such behavoral paterns have no paralelles in Anglo-Saxon
> culture.Basil Davidson is much more profound and much closer to the the
> Black African reality.
>=20
> =09=09=09=09=09Regards Basss!!=20
> --=20
> SZDD=88=F0'3Af=A8=03
>=20
>=20
>=20
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 00:20:25 +0000
From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Local election
Message-ID: <19970224231830.AAA15896@LOCALNAME>
On 24 Feb 97 at 23:18, Jobarteh, Momodou wrote:
> You mention that only through the removal of the office of Chief can
> he be replaced. The question is who is responsible for the removal
> of the Chief? Seeing as the people have elected this Chief surely it
> must also be the people who are responsible for his removal, except
> in special circumstances? What type of circumstances would warrant
> his removal by other than the people? The election of an Alkalo
> cannot lead to a removal unless there are good grounds because he is
> elected by the people.
>
> Thanks
> Alhagi
I am referring to the chiefs and Alkalolu who were removed from
office before the coming in force of the constitution and whose
positions are vacant right now. There are reports that some chiefs
and Alkalolu had been dismissed.
The constitution does not establish the tenure of office of chiefs.
The first draft did, but the second draft leaves the matter to the
legislators. In the first draft, a chief, once elected, would be in
office up to the age of 70 years.
Section 194, subsection (5) states that: " A District Chief may be
removed from office by the President on the advice of Secretary of
State responsibly for local Government, or on the recommendation of
not less than two-thirds of the members of the Area Council on
grounds -
a) of misconduct or incopetence;
b) of inability to perform the functions of his or her office wether
arising from infirmity of mind or body or any other case;
c) that he or she has become a member of a registered political
party, has been appointed vice-President or Secretary of State or to
an office in the public service or has contested an election for
President or National Assembly;
d) that he or she has been convicted of an offence punishable by
imprisonment.
Subsection (6) states that: "In this section, "misconduct" means
conduct which brings or is likely to bring the office of District
Chief into contempt or disrepute or any dishonest act or omission
affecting money or public property of which he or she has charge.
196 (4) States that the Alkalo may be removed from office by the
Commissioner in consultation with the Chief of the district in which
he or her village is situated on the same grounds as stated for the
chiefs (194 (5)).
Momodou Camara
*******************************************************
http://home3.inet.tele.dk/mcamara
**"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's
possible and suddenly you are doing the impossible"***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 19:09:23 -0500 (EST)
From: "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Cc: msjaiteh@mtu.edu (Malanding S. Jaiteh)
Subject: Re: Is Western-Style Democracy suited for Africa?
Message-ID: <199702250009.TAA00385@oak.ffr.mtu.edu>
Content-Type: text
When was this excerpt dated?
malanding
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 18:19:42 -0600 (CST)
From: Yaya Jallow <yj0001@jove.acs.unt.edu>
To: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Is Western-Style Democracy suited for Africa?
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970224180442.6911A-100000@jove.acs.unt.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hi Fellas,
Could the individual who have raised the above issue please define what
"western democracy" is? I am not sure the west have any more monopoly on
the concept of democracy than the east or other nation-states. Democracy
is a porous concept and should apply as well in the west as it should in
Africa. The idea that Africans are not ready for Democracy is both
condescending and morally insulting. It is the old adage of our dictators
who sought the means to legitimize and perpetuate their dictatorial powers
by trying to convince us that we should be more preocupied with how to
feed our shelves than economic and political liberties. That
argument does not wash anymore, we've seen the light.
Have a Good day.
Yaya
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 16:33:28 -0800 (PST)
From: "A. Loum" <tloum@u.washington.edu>
To: Gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: New member
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.970224163146.10905B-100000@saul2.u.washington.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Buba Njie has been added to the list. We welcome him and are looking
forward to his introduction and contributions.
Thanks
Tony
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 05:04:34 +0300
From: BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH <KOLLS567@QATAR.NET.QA>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Is Western-Style Democracy suited for Africa?
Message-ID: <312FC3B2.6397@QATAR.NET.QA>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yaya Jallow wrote:
>=20
> Hi Fellas,
>=20
> Could the individual who have raised the above issue please define what
> "western democracy" is? I am not sure the west have any more monopoly o=
n
> the concept of democracy than the east or other nation-states. Democrac=
y
> is a porous concept and should apply as well in the west as it should i=
n
> Africa. The idea that Africans are not ready for Democracy is both
> condescending and morally insulting. It is the old adage of our dictato=
rs
> who sought the means to legitimize and perpetuate their dictatorial pow=
ers
> by trying to convince us that we should be more preocupied with how to
> feed our shelves than economic and political liberties. That
> argument does not wash anymore, we've seen the light.
>=20
> Have a Good day.
>=20
> Yaya
YAYA!!
He didn't say Democracy;he said Western Style Democracy,and I don't
think that will ever happen in the Gambia,not in one million years!! We
can have a Participatory Democracy without it necessarily being a
WESTERN STYLE!!
Regards Basss!!
--=20
SZDD=88=F0'3Af=A8=03
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 22:40:47 -0500 (EST)
From: "N'Deye Marie Njie" <njie.1@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Update on Daily Observer Online (strat. com)
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19970224224148.36270d52@pop.service.ohio-state.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Gambia-l:
This is just a brief update on the Daily Observer Online. As you might
recall in earlier messages, the strategy and technical committees were
working closely together to try and bring the Daily Observer Online. We
have been trying to get in touch with someone at the Daily Observer who can
answer the questions we have regarding the technical set up of the paper, as
well as costs related to setting up and maintaining the paper. We have
recently managed to get the e-mail of a reliable source who we hope can
respond quickly. As soon as we know more, we will let you know.
I would like to encourage you all to keep your interest in subscribing to
the paper. A lot of effort, time and energy is being put into this project
by a very resourceful and inspirational group of people. I believe it will
be a success! So those who have not subscribe yet, please send your
requests to Momodou Camara at momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk. We are still
taking subscriptions.
We will keep in touch...
N'Deye-Marie N'Jie
(Coordinator of Strategy Committee)
----------------------
N'Deye Marie N'Jie <njie.1@osu.edu>
Graduate Research Associate
ESGP/ Dept. of Food, Agric. & Biol. Engineering
The Ohio State University
590 Woody Hayes Drive, Columbus OH 43210-1057
<614-688-3445 (W); 614-292-9448 (Fax)>
-----------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 19:51:59 +0800 (SGT)
From: Serigne Mamadou <9220373@talabah.iiu.my>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Response to Moe & others
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970224193525.15064A-100000@talabah.iiu.my>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
On Sun, 23 Feb 1997 umjawara@cc.UManitoba.CA wrote:
> Hello Brothers and Sisters,
> =09I decided to write this response to Gambia -L because there are a=20
> lot more people interseted in hearing the Qur=E1n's point of view in=20
> geology of mountains. I appologise if this isn't appropriate. Moe, the=
=20
> verse that you mentioned in chapter 21, verse 31 is actually a=20
> continuation of the preceding verse. That verse, number 30 contains=20
> information which was only discovered in 1973 (in science) and a nobel=20
> prize was awarded to the two scientists that did the research. The verse=
=20
> reads "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were=20
> joined together as one united piece, then We clove them asunder, and made=
=20
> from water every living thing? Will they not then believe?" The Qur=E1n=
=20
> reveals the origin of the universe - how it began from one piece. =20
> Additionally,Proof of the fact that all life originated from water was=20
> not available until the invention of the microscope. People had to wait=
=20
> to find out that cytoplasm, the basic substance of the cell, is made up=
=20
> of 80% water.
> =09Verse 31 reads "And we have placed on the earth firm Mountains, lest=
=20
> it should shake with them......" "them" here refers back to "they" at=20
> the end of the preceding verse, meaning "unbelivers" (it might be=20
> mankind in general).
> =09I have a book regarding geology and the Qur=E1n but unfortunately I=20
> don't have it handy right now so I'll just give you a partial answer=20
> to your question at this point. A student in geology once told me that=
=20
> mountains, even though they form at weak spots help stabilize that=20
> part of the earth. A valcano for example forms due to extremely high=20
> temperatures in the earth's core and the lava finds the weakest spot on=
=20
> the surface of the earth to come out. This results in the formation of=
=20
> a mountain over time. A great quantity of the lava solidifies=20
> under the ground surface and therefore the whole mountain acts like a=20
> "peg" as described in chapter 78, verse 7.
> =09An interesting thing about the Qur=E1n is that it constantly advices=
=20
> the reader to ask those who have knowledge if they want to know more=20
> about what it says or are in doubt. A few years ago a group of men in=20
> Saudi Arabia collected all the verses in the Qur=E1n which discuss=20
> embryology. They chose, as it happened, a non-Muslim who is a=20
> proffessor of embryology (Dr. keith Moore). They invited him to Saudi=20
> and said, "this is what the Qur=E1n says about your subject, is it=20
> true?" He was so surprised at what he found in the Qur=E1n. At one item=
=20
> in particular - the Qur=E1n's description of the human being as a=20
> "leach-like clot"(alaqah) at one stage - was new to him; but when he=20
> checked on it, he found that it was true and so he added it to his=20
> book. He went to the zoology department and asked for a picture of=20
> a leach. When he found that it looked just like a human embryo, he=20
> decided to include both pictures in one of his textbooks. I can go=20
> on forever! I will certainly post the names of these books and=20
> some url's where you can get more information. =20
>=20
> ASSALAMU ALAIKUM (PIECE)
>=20
> pl. Moe, I can mail you some piblications if you're interested in stuff=
=20
> like this. Just send me your mailing address.
>=20
Hello and may peace be upon you all!
=09
=09I am sure that I am not that known to the Gambia-L members. I did=20
register for quite a long time, but this is the first time I am sending a=
=20
mail or participating in all these interesting discussions.
=09The best would be to introduce myself first. My name is Serigne Mamadou=
=20
Ka. I am a Gambian by origin and by birth but I spent most of my life=20
in Senegal, where I was educated. I am right now staying in Malaysia,=20
where I am furthering my studies at the International Islamic University=20
(IIU). I am in my final Semester in Communication studies.
=09I would like my first contribution to be on the above issue, i.e.=20
the Qur'an and Science. However, before venturing in any discussion, I woul=
d=20
like to be clear about the intention of those who started the discussion. A=
re=20
you trying to prove the authenticity of the Qur'an based on scientific=20
findings, or do you just want to portray the compatibility between science=
=20
and the Qur'an? A clear answer could help me join in the discussion.
=09Thanks for everything, wassalam.=20
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 23:37:08 -0500 (EST)
From: MJagana@aol.com
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: We must reclaim our nation
Message-ID: <970224233706_-1440792341@emout17.mail.aol.com>
Dear Gambia Lers,
I think that to reclaim a nation through violence is not the most effective
way. We all have seen what has been going on in Africa from Liberia, S leone
and all over Angola.
Violence does not pay, violence will not pay and it is a disgrace that in
this modern world of intelluctauls one is advocating such an act.
The IRA, for example has for the past 25 years used violent tactics to
reclaim thier nation, but I can tell you that they are to no avail.
so lets us all try to claim back our nation by the legal rules and laws of a
nation we should be all proud of.
WHILE WE CANNOT DIRECT THE WIND, WE CAN ADJUST THE SAILS.
MOMODOU JAGANA
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 23:53:44 -0500 (EST)
From: MJagana@aol.com
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Is Western-Style Democracy suited for Africa?
Message-ID: <970224235342_620207102@emout18.mail.aol.com>
Dear fellow Gambians,
It is strange in the last 50 years or even less we the Africans are been
either forced or convinced to adapt " so called WESTERN-STYLE DEMOCRACY.
I strongly believe it is neceassay to look at those so calle ddemocratic
countries and how long have they been independent. In looking at this time
line, compare how long have they been democratic. Then review the qoute( so
called WSD )
For example the USA has for the passed years claime dto be a very democtaic
country. However if you turn the clock back to 40 years, the black population
were not allowed to vote , and wre denied most of the basic human rights.
So American and many of the western countries that police people about
democracy have been very UNDEMOCRATIC in most parts of thier history. The
USA, have been a free state for over 200 hundred years, but it did not apply
democracy to allof it's people for all of that time.
So if we have to talk about WSD, we also need to review thier history and the
time it took them to be partially democratic.
momodou jagana
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 18:02:58 JST +900
From: binta@iuj.ac.jp
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: We must reclaim our nation
Message-ID: <199702250858.RAA04971@mlsv.iuj.ac.jp>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Gambia-l,
No person on this List has publicly advocated violence as a means to
our problems. One thing we all know for certain is that such a
culture has not yet manifested itself in our country. And I hope
some of us are not misconstruing what Dr. K. Touray wrote. The
docility of many a Gambian in the face of even minor but necessary
demonstations is clear-cut. We love our silence! What a virtue!
Lamin.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 09:54:33 +0000
From: Abdou Gibba <Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Is Western-Style Democracy suited for Africa?
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19970225105408.276738ba@alfred.uib.no>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 13:15 24.02.97 -0500, Moe S. Jallow wrote:
>Hello Gambia-l,
>
>Below is an excerpt from David Lamb, an author of the Africans and the
>Arabs who has traveled extensively and lived for many years in Africa as a
>correspondent and bureau chief for the Los Angeles Times.
>When asked:
"Is a Western-style democracy pertinent to the needs of Africa?"
MOE! This is a very important question you've brought forward for
discussions, perhaps as important as the issue of Domestic Violence and
Polygamy. I believe that the general African perception of democracy is so
profoundly undefined that we find our selves somewhere between Western-style
democracy and our traditional village/community-based style of governance.
In the case of the latter, the role of elders is a very significant one.
This is why in Gambia for instance, politicians before and now rely on the
"opinion" or support of elders. Being in this half-n-half situation reduces
our "democracy" to nothing but a copy (not even as good as a "carbon copy").
And as the saying goes, "ROY DU NUROO PIRR" (literary meaning, "a copy is
not as good as the original"). Take for instance the Gambian-style-democracy
under SIR DAWDA, it was termed one of the best in Africa so much so that
Gambians were electoral observers or even advisers to some states of
Southern Africa who were emerging to "democracy". The fact is we all know
what sort of democracy we had or still have and if this was termed as one of
the best in Africa, then one is be forced to ask, "is this "democracy"
really ideal for our people? When faced with such a question, I don't
believe that any reasoning person who wants the best for his/her people will
ever feel comfortable. This is what inspired NYERERE into launching his
UJAMA (African Socialism) with it's basis at the village/community level.
May be a part of this is what he meant by, as MOE quoted, "Let others go to
the moon, We must work to feed ourselves first". Unfortunately, UJAMA turned
to be a failure. More interesting, after it's failure Gambians were among
those assisting Tanzania in her transition to democracy (please, correct me
here).
CHEIKH ANTA DIOP (Senegalese Anthropologist and Historian) also in one of
his publications (can't remember which, HELP!!) had a vision, an imaginary
African State with it's structure adopted from old African Kingdoms/Empires
and developed to suit the present day Africa. Valuable lessons could be
drawn from these fine scholars, as in my believe, unless we redefined
suitable political structures for our selves, call it "African-style
democracy/socialism",
as BASS put it, "...Western-style democracy...., I don't think, will ever
happen in the Gambia, not in one million years!!".
M. JAGANA wrote:
"I strongly believe it is necessary to look at those so-called democratic
countries and how long have they been independent. In looking at this time
line, compare how long have they been democratic...."
Mr. JAGANA! I agree, in fact I would go even beyond this. "Democracy" with
all it entails exists no where even today. Not even in the so-called
"world's greatest democracy" (The US).
You further wrote:
"For example the USA has for the passed years claimed to be a very democratic
country. However if you turn the clock back to 40 years, the black population
were not allowed to vote , and were denied most of the basic human rights.
So American and many of the western countries that police people about
democracy have been very UNDEMOCRATIC in most parts of their history. The
USA, have been a free state for over 200 hundred years, but it did not apply
democracy to allow it's people for all of that time."
Again, I agree, going beyond again, you don't even need to "turn the clock
back 40 years", just look at this very "second", I'll repeat democracy in
it's real term doesn't exist in these "western countries that police people
about democracy". Defining democracy could be done better in a separate
posting and this I would rather leave to our political scientists/experts.
***************************************************************
* SI JAMMA!! KAIRABA KONOH!! DI MASUMEH!!..... IN PEACE!! *
* ::)))Abdou Oujimai *
* ------------------------------------------------------- *
* Centre for Studies of Environment and Resources *
* University of Bergen *
* Bergen High-Tech. Centre Ltd. *
* N-5020 BERGEN *
* NORWAY *
* *
* Tel: +47 55584214 Fax: +47 55589687 *
* Email: Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no *
***************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:49:09 +0000
From: Abdou Gibba <Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: We must reclaim our nation
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19970225114843.276776d4@alfred.uib.no>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 18:02 25.02.97 +900, Lamin wrote:
>Gambia-l,
>
>No person on this List has publicly advocated violence as a means to
>our problems. One thing we all know for certain is that such a
>culture has not yet manifested itself in our country. And I hope
>some of us are not misconstruing what Dr. K. Touray wrote. The
>docility of many a Gambian in the face of even minor but necessary
>demonstations is clear-cut. We love our silence! What a virtue!
>
>Lamin.
LAMIN! WE ARE MERELY QUESTIONING THE REALITY OF A "civil disobedience structured
to chokeoff the operations of the gov't.", IN OUR COUNTRY, AT LEAST AT THIS
CONJUNCTION OF OUR POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC STATE, AS ADVOCATED BY DR. TOURAY.
TAKING ALL CONTEXT IN HAND, IS THIS REALISTIC??? LET'S THINK, NOT "TWICE"
BUT JUST ONCE WOULD DO FOR ANYONE WHO IS REALLY PRE-OCCUPIED WITH THE
WELFARE OF OUR PEOPLE. WE MIGHT KNOW WHERE IT WILL START BUT WILL NEVER KNOW
WHERE IT WILL END. GOD FORBID!!
***************************************************************
* SI JAMMA!! KAIRABA KONOH!! DI MASUMEH!!..... IN PEACE!! *
* ::)))Abdou Oujimai *
* ------------------------------------------------------- *
* Centre for Studies of Environment and Resources *
* University of Bergen *
* Bergen High-Tech. Centre Ltd. *
* N-5020 BERGEN *
* NORWAY *
* *
* Tel: +47 55584214 Fax: +47 55589687 *
* Email: Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no *
***************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 08:32:27 -0500 (EST)
From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Should we be CLONING around???
Message-ID: <9702251332.AA23674@st6000.sct.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Greetings to all GL members,
This new stunning development should give us all pause to
think.
----------------------------------------------------------
Should we be CLONING around?
Breakthrough raises exciting
-- and scary -- possibilities
CNN) -- The announcement that a team of British scientists had
successfully cloned an adult sheep has touched off a new wave
of discussion over the ethical implications of such a feat.
The achievement announced Sunday by a team of scientists at the
Roslin Institute near Edinburgh, Scotland, marks the first time
anyone has successfully cloned an adult mammal.
"There are a number of genetic diseases for which there is no cure
.... and this will enable us to carry out research into the causes of
those diseases and perhaps develop method to treat them," Dr. Ian
Wilmut of the Roslin Institute said following the announcement.
While some scientists hail the cloning as a major breakthrough for
research in agriculture, aging, medicine and genetics, others worry
what it may portend. If sheep can be replicated, they ask, are
humans far behind?
Suddenly the stuff of science fiction doesn't seem so fanciful
anymore as one considers the possibility of dictators cloning
themselves, dead geniuses brought back to life, or beloved family
pets resurrected.
Sheep, cattle, pigs ... what next?
At the center of the controversy is a cuddly 7-month-old lamb
named Dolly, an exact copy of a 6-year-old ewe born through a
process called "nuclear transplantation." Specifically, the Roslin
scientists put genes from the ewe into unfertilized eggs then
implanted them in other sheep.
Grahame Bulfield, director of the Roslin Institute, told CNN
Monday his team has previously cloned mammals at various stages
of development. What makes Dolly different, he said, is that she
was cloned not from sex cells, but from mature mammal cells with no
reproductive function.
"I expect in the fullness of time, we will be trying to do the same
experiments on cattle and pigs," he said.
What about humans? Maybe such experiments are under way in
other parts of the world, but not in Scotland. Due to ethical
concerns, Britain has banned human cloning, and research using
human embryos is strictly regulated.
CNN's Siobhan Darrow on the ethical implications of cloning:
Such experiments are not banned in the United States, although
some American ethicists are calling for federal laws prohibiting the
practice and an immediate international moratorium on human
cloning.
"One of the prospects should not be, perhaps should never be, the
extension of this technique to human beings," said Carl Felbaum,
president of the Biotechnology Industry Organization, in an
interview with CNN. "Now that it may be possible we would say
its should be prohibited if necessary by law."
"We're going to be facing this issue with humans," said Stephen
Grebe, an associate professor of biology at American University in
Washington. "With that possibility open, I'm concerned without
adequate safeguards this will become a reality. It may very well
already be."
Don't go there, ethicists warn:
But even if humans could be cloned, they would not necessarily be
identical, according to Grebe who noted that human twins may
appear to be exactly alike, but have distinct personalities.
While the prospects of cloning may open exciting possibilities like
the replication of an Albert Einstein or a Mother Teresa, it brings
with it some terrifying prospects.
"Do we want necessarily Einsteins and are we willing to accept the
costs of so-called bad copies?" Grebe asked. "What about failed
experiments? These are really horrific issues and I think there's a
moral chasm between the technological ability at this point and the
public understanding of the purpose of this."
Felbaum is uncomfortable with such speculation. With regard to
cloning Einsteins, he said, "I would assert this is not a line we want
to cross. I would say this is not even a line we want to approach."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards,
Moe S. Jallow
==============================================================================
mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:11:57 GMT
From: "Per E. Grotnes" <perg@nfh.uit.no>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: re Cloning
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970225152946.1dd72c88@draugen.nfh.uit.no>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Mother nature has been cloning humans for some time. Identical twins are
clone members. Although they are more similar than two egged twins, they
still are different with different abilities and wishes of what to achieve
in life. Cloning an Einstein would not transfer the special abilities that
Albert had when he, in opposition to his contemporary scientific collegues,
postulated the constancy of the speed of light, the fundamental idea of the
special relativity theory.
People put too much emphasis on heredity when it comes to intelligence and
general smartness. After all we are not animals basing our life endavours on
instinct alone. Quite opposite what the makes the human beeing different
from animals is our ability to constantly learn both from experience and
from what is taught us.
This cloning business does not agree with my views on what scientists should
waste their time on. The benefits of the cloning technique are far less than
the risks of abuse. On the other hand a ban would not have any great effect.
The method is technically simple enough that those who wants to do it can do
so in secrecy. I do feel that this is another hoax mainly for the benefit of
the more shady media of the world.
I do hope that i do not sound too smug about it, but relax, it will not
concern us very much in the foreseable future I'm sure.
Per G
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:48:46 +0000
From: "M'BAI OF" <O.F.M'Bai@icsl.ac.uk>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: faith
Message-ID: <199702251048.KAA25951@netmail.city.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
I hope all you guys out there addressing Islamic and marriage issues
really really know, believe,and mean all that you have said . It
appears to me from the contents of most of your postings that all
that is said is JUST A WORD OF MOUTH NOT YOUR FAITH
OR SOMETHING THAT YOU PRACTICE IN REAL LIFE.
ITS VERY IMPORTANT TO PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH
AND IT APPEARS TO ME THAT A HANDFUL OF YOU
GUYS OUT THERE JUST ADDRESS THESE ISSUES , BUT
DON'T BELIEVE IN THEM OR PUT THEM INTO PRACTICE
EG, a lot of people promise their wives never to get involved with
anyone else etc but do they? And that is something that Islam
forbids( ADULTERY) how manyof youguys out there married can
proudly raise their hands and say they have never cheated on their
wives who has always remained faithful?!!!! I doubt it if more than
two people can do so!!!!!!
Secondly , Islam forbid drinking alcohol . But a lot of you guys out
there drink even more than the PAGAN , get pissed and misbehave
beat up your wives etc etc and yet you call yourselves MOSLEMS
with a moslem upbringing, and with a Moslem
name etc .
It is very important to practice what you preach, if you don't , you 're
not fooling anyone but yourselves.
NB. This is not directed at anyone but to only those who fit in this
category. Who the cap fits let them wear it.
ASALAM,
OMAR F. M'BAI
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:01:20 +0100
From: Andrea Klumpp <klumpp@kar.dec.com>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: polygamy, violence, troublemakers ...
Message-ID: <3312FEC0.2EDB@kar.dec.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi BASS and Gambia-Lers,
excuse my delay in responding to your thoughtful, enlightening pieces on
domestic violence and polygamy. Thanks to all of you! I need time to
think about "all the stuff", new information, different points of view
.... and don't want to jump on such sensitive issues. This is why my
mails to certain topics always come late ....
A lot has been said about the negative aspects of polygamy. But what
about the positive ones and the intentional purpose of polygamy?? I
would love to learn on these ones, too!!
Another aspect: According to my information, the Quran does not allow
men to demonstrate their wealth by wearing expensive clothes, jewellery,
..... but women are and 2, 3, 4 wives often serve the purpose of showing
the wealth of their husband, thus becoming part of his wealth, kind of
his property, which must lead to inhuman treatment in one way or the
other, maybe even violence.
On the side of the woman: I agree with Ndey Kumba Drammeh. Woman are
responsible for taking the challenge of changing harmful practices and
structures of society even or better particularly if they had been
imposed by men. Freedom/self-determination or the strong desire for it
can not be given to or by anybody, it has to grow in oneself, although
outside impulses can be crucial.
When I asked about matriarchial/-linear structures I had a certain idea
in mind and Bass gave this idea food by posting his well written and
very informative piece "the troublemakers" (thanks again !!). I mean,
could a way forward for African women not be the look back to traditions
which are probably still vivid in one way or the other? I mean there's
no need to adopt or copy anything from the west. Moreover this are no
western values. Patriarchy is all over the globe but wherever, women
should bear in mind that it was not always like that.
(We know the structures you mentionned in your mail, too, Bass. In
short: The mother's brother was the social father of the children and
lived together with them, the physical father was not necessarily
important for the kids - all this before our troublemakers came, before
christianity).
Ndey Kumba Drammeh, I think here you said something very important:
"Some women because they want to conform to norms of society learn to
lie to themselves". The frustration resulting from this unsatisfactory
situation is surely contributing to the tensions which can result in
violence. And in that sense women are partly responsible, too.
On remote selection of a partner: Is it possible that some people got
enough from western life, miss their home country terribly, can't stand
to stay alone or don't want to help themself with shorttime affairs and
think that "exporting" a wife from home could be a way out?
I think it is alway critical to marry for a purpose only. Mere physical
attraction, money, social status, loneliness... will always lead to
frustration, if it is not accompanied by mutual understanding and love.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:17:29 +0100
From: Andrea Klumpp <klumpp@kar.dec.com>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Is Western-Style Democracy suited for Africa?
Message-ID: <33130289.DE3@kar.dec.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Abdou Gibba wrote:
....... that we find our selves somewhere between Western-style
> democracy and our traditional village/community-based style of governance.
> In the case of the latter, the role of elders is a very significant one.
> This is why in Gambia for instance, politicians before and now rely on the
> "opinion" or support of elders. Being in this half-n-half situation reduces
> our "democracy" to nothing but a copy
Why? The combination sounds good to my amateurish ears, whereas I
wouldn't call it Western-style democracy. Half-n-half could make a whole
one if the halfs get the chance of growing toghether instead of
hindering themselves. What about the principle of consensus, practiced
in many African societies? Isn't this democracy pure?
This is what inspired NYERERE into launching his
> UJAMA (African Socialism) with it's basis at the village/community level.
.... Unfortunately, UJAMA turned
> to be a failure.
Again: why?? Was the idea faulty itsself or only mal-practiced?? Why not
developing, modifying, correcting the idea?
> CHEIKH ANTA DIOP (Senegalese Anthropologist and Historian) also in one of
> his publications (can't remember which, HELP!!) had a vision, an imaginary
> African State with it's structure adopted from old African Kingdoms/Empires
> and developed to suit the present day Africa. Valuable lessons could be
> drawn from these fine scholars, as in my believe, unless we redefined
> suitable political structures for our selves, call it "African-style
> democracy/socialism",
Looking forward to your contributions on these inspiring theories !!!
Regards, Andrea
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:07:26 -0500 (EST)
From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Serigne Mamadou's message
Message-ID: <9702251507.AA39278@st6000.sct.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
>
>
> On Sun, 23 Feb 1997 umjawara@cc.UManitoba.CA wrote:
>
> > Hello Brothers and Sisters,
> > =09I decided to write this response to Gambia -L because there are a=20
> > lot more people interseted in hearing the Qur=E1n's point of view in=20
> > geology of mountains. I appologise if this isn't appropriate. Moe, the=
> =20
> > verse that you mentioned in chapter 21, verse 31 is actually a=20
> > continuation of the preceding verse. That verse, number 30 contains=20
> > information which was only discovered in 1973 (in science) and a nobel=20
> > prize was awarded to the two scientists that did the research. The verse=
> =20
> > reads "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were=20
> > joined together as one united piece, then We clove them asunder, and made=
> =20
> > from water every living thing? Will they not then believe?" The Qur=E1n=
> =20
> > reveals the origin of the universe - how it began from one piece. =20
> > Additionally,Proof of the fact that all life originated from water was=20
> > not available until the invention of the microscope. People had to wait=
> =20
> > to find out that cytoplasm, the basic substance of the cell, is made up=
> =20
> > of 80% water.
> > =09Verse 31 reads "And we have placed on the earth firm Mountains, lest=
> =20
> > it should shake with them......" "them" here refers back to "they" at=20
> > the end of the preceding verse, meaning "unbelivers" (it might be=20
> > mankind in general).
> > =09I have a book regarding geology and the Qur=E1n but unfortunately I=20
> > don't have it handy right now so I'll just give you a partial answer=20
> > to your question at this point. A student in geology once told me that=
> =20
> > mountains, even though they form at weak spots help stabilize that=20
> > part of the earth. A valcano for example forms due to extremely high=20
> > temperatures in the earth's core and the lava finds the weakest spot on=
> =20
> > the surface of the earth to come out. This results in the formation of=
> =20
> > a mountain over time. A great quantity of the lava solidifies=20
> > under the ground surface and therefore the whole mountain acts like a=20
> > "peg" as described in chapter 78, verse 7.
> > =09An interesting thing about the Qur=E1n is that it constantly advices=
> =20
> > the reader to ask those who have knowledge if they want to know more=20
> > about what it says or are in doubt. A few years ago a group of men in=20
> > Saudi Arabia collected all the verses in the Qur=E1n which discuss=20
> > embryology. They chose, as it happened, a non-Muslim who is a=20
> > proffessor of embryology (Dr. keith Moore). They invited him to Saudi=20
> > and said, "this is what the Qur=E1n says about your subject, is it=20
> > true?" He was so surprised at what he found in the Qur=E1n. At one item=
> =20
> > in particular - the Qur=E1n's description of the human being as a=20
> > "leach-like clot"(alaqah) at one stage - was new to him; but when he=20
> > checked on it, he found that it was true and so he added it to his=20
> > book. He went to the zoology department and asked for a picture of=20
> > a leach. When he found that it looked just like a human embryo, he=20
> > decided to include both pictures in one of his textbooks. I can go=20
> > on forever! I will certainly post the names of these books and=20
> > some url's where you can get more information. =20
> >=20
> > ASSALAMU ALAIKUM (PIECE)
> >=20
> > pl. Moe, I can mail you some piblications if you're interested in stuff=
> =20
> > like this. Just send me your mailing address.
> >=20
>
> Hello and may peace be upon you all!
> =09
> =09I am sure that I am not that known to the Gambia-L members. I did=20
> register for quite a long time, but this is the first time I am sending a=
> =20
> mail or participating in all these interesting discussions.
> =09The best would be to introduce myself first. My name is Serigne Mamadou=
> =20
> Ka. I am a Gambian by origin and by birth but I spent most of my life=20
> in Senegal, where I was educated. I am right now staying in Malaysia,=20
> where I am furthering my studies at the International Islamic University=20
> (IIU). I am in my final Semester in Communication studies.
> =09I would like my first contribution to be on the above issue, i.e.=20
> the Qur'an and Science. However, before venturing in any discussion, I woul=
> d=20
> like to be clear about the intention of those who started the discussion. A=
> re=20
> you trying to prove the authenticity of the Qur'an based on scientific=20
> findings, or do you just want to portray the compatibility between science=
> =20
> and the Qur'an? A clear answer could help me join in the discussion.
> =09Thanks for everything, wassalam.=20
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:14:22 -0500 (EST)
From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Serigne Mamadou's message
Message-ID: <9702251514.AA30996@st6000.sct.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Serigne Mamadou wrote:
> Hello and may peace be upon you all!
>
> I am sure that I am not that known to the Gambia-L members. I did
> register for quite a long time, but this is the first time I am sending a
> mail or participating in all these interesting discussions.
> The best would be to introduce myself first.
> My name is Serigne Mamadou
> Ka. I am a Gambian by origin and by birth but I spent most of my life
> in Senegal, where I was educated. I am right now staying in Malaysia,
> where I am furthering my studies at the International Islamic University
> (IIU). I am in my final Semester in Communication studies.
> I would like my first contribution to be on the above issue, i.e.
> the Qur'an and Science. However, before venturing in any discussion, I would
> like to be clear about the intention of those who started the
> discussion. Are
> you trying to prove the authenticity of the Qur'an based on scientific
> findings, or do you just want to portray the compatibility between science
> and the Qur'an? A clear answer could help me join in the discussion.
> Thanks for everything, wassalam.
Serigne Ka,
Thank you for your introduction and welcome to Gambia-L.
In reference to your above inquiry, I must first say that the question was
put to me by a muslim friend. As I was unble to answer it, I decided to
post it to the list. I appreciate your concern of engaging the discussion
without a clear understanding of how it originated. Very well done!
Since, I was the one who raised the question to the Mr. Alieu Jawara & the
list members, I am writing my personal opinion about how I feel about
Islam and Science.
Foremost, I would like to make it clear that, AS A MUSLIM, I believe that
the QURAN, the words of ALLAH, is the truth, and with our limited
understanding we are incapable of comprehending its inner essence
absolutely, perfectly, and completely. As human beings, we analyze
things based on our present and past knowledge. God is the only infinite
domain and we can never go beyond the limit that has been established by the
Mighty Creator. This is why we see "man-made" laws changing every time
and it is bound to change as our knowledge domain is expanded. As an
engineer, I know how difficult it is to keep up with the latest changes
that invalidates the old design codes and regulations. I am sure, by GOD
willing, in due time human intelligence will overcome our current
shortcomings and fully realize the significance of the statements made in
the Quran in almostt 1400 years ago. A scientific validation of divine
statements will, among other things, help to consolidate and strengthen our
faith and make us realize the Omnipotence of the Almighty.
I hope that I have not disappointed you by questioning the Quran and the
words of God, for even in the Quran it is stated that those who are in
doubt should ask. I also hope that you will, in one way or the other,
share your intellectual understandings in this field.
Once again, thank you
Regards,
Moe S. Jallow
==============================================================================
mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 18:49:46 +0300
From: BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH <KOLLS567@QATAR.NET.QA>
To: GAMBIA-L@U.WASHINGTON.EDU
Subject: (Part2) POLYGAMY IN PERSPECTIVE
Message-ID: <3130851A.6EFA@QATAR.NET.QA>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A couple of weeks ago,we did mention that the Senegambian region had
been
matrilinial before the advent of both Islam and Christianity.That fact
is very much
related to the subject at hand here, namely,POLYGAMY.Of course,Islam was
there first.
On the the subject of Polygamy itself,the Arabs did not have much
problem,because there
was a coincidence between what Islam was preaching and what these black
people were practising.But ,interestingly, thats where the similarity
ended,because whereas it was Polygamy in both cases,the Arabs could not
quite understand why so much power should be given to these women,and
even more confusing to them was the fact that all children were named
after their mothers' clans and that the Ancestors that every clan
worshipped and recognised as the founder of the clan were almost always
Females.So,Arab Polygamy
evolved from Arab Patrairchy whereas African Polygamy evolved from
African Matriarchy.
In the former,women were lustful devils who must be controlled and put
in their proper
places physically and morally or else society would inevitably head for
disaster,that is hardly surprising given the fact that the entire Arab
history is riddled with female infanticide and snatching and kidnapping
of women to be kept in the now notorious Oriental Harems;and in the
latter,Women were the Mothers of the Clans,the high priestesses and
Goddesses of the Shrines through whose guidance society would know what
direction to take.So,a world of difference there!As for our second
friends ,the christians,when they came,they considered Polygamy as a
barbarian culture and they expended enormous amount of energy and
resources trying persuade the locals that anyone who wanted to save his
soul must desist from such an abomination!perhaps that explains why they
did so badly in selling their religion to the West Africans compared to
the Arabs.In the Macho christian Psyche
Eve was responsible for man's expulsion from heaven,and since SIN is
somehow heriditary
in christian theology,all Eves children,the women, are held accountable
and responsible for the FALL.ST.JOHN himself was absolutely undiplomatic
about it when he said: "Woman is the daughter of falsehood,a sentinel of
hell,the enemy of peace;through her Adam lost Paradise." Now,there is a
problem here! Jesus Christ had told them to increase the Kingdom of God
through procreation,and there is no way you can manufacture children
without somehow coming into contact with that SINFUL monster called
Wo-MAN.But the Christian Philosophers were a bunch of smart guys,so as
expected, they came up with a magic solution which would make the men
less miserable, and it goes like this:Women are sinful beings,and
associating with them
is by default SINFUL,but if the act of sex is undertaken for the sole
purpose of fulfilling the word of God,which is to procreate,then it is
not sinful.Inother word,SEX is sinful,but if you do it to get children
to increase Christians in the world,then it is not.So,this was why
ST.PAUL wrote his that famous Doctrine in which he urged his Brothers in
the Faith to do with only ONE,not that Jesus Christ had told him
anything of that sort,but because his own common
sense told him that a NECESSARY EVIL must be kept to a minimum as much
as possible. So,we now know that Western Monogamy was not the result of
either the Kind heartedness of Western Men nor that of their sense of
fairness to women;and if anything
it was the result of contempt and an old grudge for them.Anyone who
doubts that should follow closely the almost always acrimonious debates
between the U.S. Feminist Groups,who want 100% equality with the men in
law and in practice,and the Conservatives,who believe that the little
they have got so far is already too dangerous for them to handle,and
that is destroying America's family structures and threatening mens jobs
at the work places and most important of all ,men's egos.
Polygamy did not come to be in black Africa simply because some African
men one day sat
under a tree and decided that because there was a surplus of women in
the society each
man should now increase the number of his sex partners.No,it wasn't that
at all.And we will now look at some of the unique features of the
Senegambian culture that gave rise to it.We already know that in
precolonial Senegambia much of the food production
was in the hands of the women,but the job of the men was
hunting,war,protecting the security of the Kingdom,so because of the
very nature of men's specialty many of them died quite frequently and at
very young age.So,whenever a man died and left behind
a young wife,that woman would automatically be given to the brother of
the deceased whether or not he had already been married;that,to protect
the stability,integrity and
continuity of the children,the family,clan and society as a whole.On the
other hand,if a man's wife could not get children,or just died
prematurely,her sister would be married to the same man to help her get
children in the case of infertility.It was one and the same
thing,because the children would belong the sisters'clan.Another source
of Polygamy was that,because it was forbidden to either kill the women
of the Royal Family
of a conquered people at war,those women were either taken by the King
of the winners as additional wives or distributed among the TIEDDOS,the
nobility,whether they had been
married or not.These are only some of the historical and cultural
factors that made Polygamy both possible and enduring in the Senegambian
culture.
So,in conclusion,we could confidently say that whereas Polygamy ,on the
face of it ,may be unfair to some women who may not want to share their
men with other women,there were
some justifiable and compelling historical and cultural reasons for it.A
collectivistic
Society does not ignore the interests of its individuals but tends to
attach a higher premium to the welfare and wellbeing of society in
general.But the great human march=20
towards a better and a more just and prosperous society never stops.The
mistakes and shortcomings of the past must and will indeed be
rectified.Senegambian society can retain the option of mulitple
marriages for its majority but at the same time protect
the rights of the minority of women who would not want to be part of
it.That could easily be done by revising the provisions of its Family
Law and thus insert in it
clauses that would make it illegal for men who have promised their wives
before marriage that they would never marry a second wife as long as
this one is working.That
way the betrayed wife could sue for damages and perhaps also seeks
divorce.When our Legal System empowers our women so that they also can
hit back hard at those men who
irresponsibly want to run away from them after four children and ten
years of hardwork,marriage and support for their spouses,when such power
exists,it would no longer matter what type Prefix you put before the
word GAMY,all that would matter is that all Gambian men would know the
definition of marriage according to the great
philosopher,SHOPENHAUER,who said that :"To Marry Is To Halve Your
Rights,And Double
Your Duties".In such an atmosphere,we would start to hear less the Lame
Excuse that its Islam that tells us to marry more women,and more and
more men would start to work harder to make the life of their present
families better and better,instead of running away to create new ones
while the old ones rot in HELL.=20
Regards Basss!! =20
--=20
SZDD=88=F0'3Af=A8=03
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 19:21:08 +0300
From: BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH <KOLLS567@QATAR.NET.QA>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Is Western-Style Democracy suited for Africa?
Message-ID: <31308C73.3E5D@QATAR.NET.QA>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Andrea Klumpp wrote:
>=20
> Abdou Gibba wrote:
> ...... that we find our selves somewhere between Western-style
> > democracy and our traditional village/community-based style of govern=
ance.
> > In the case of the latter, the role of elders is a very significant o=
ne.
> > This is why in Gambia for instance, politicians before and now rely o=
n the
> > "opinion" or support of elders. Being in this half-n-half situation r=
educes
> > our "democracy" to nothing but a copy
>=20
> Why? The combination sounds good to my amateurish ears, whereas I
> wouldn't call it Western-style democracy. Half-n-half could make a whol=
e
> one if the halfs get the chance of growing toghether instead of
> hindering themselves. What about the principle of consensus, practiced
> in many African societies? Isn't this democracy pure?
>=20
> This is what inspired NYERERE into launching his
> > UJAMA (African Socialism) with it's basis at the village/community le=
vel.
> ... Unfortunately, UJAMA turned
> > to be a failure.
>=20
> Again: why?? Was the idea faulty itsself or only mal-practiced?? Why no=
t
> developing, modifying, correcting the idea?
>=20
> > CHEIKH ANTA DIOP (Senegalese Anthropologist and Historian) also in on=
e of
> > his publications (can't remember which, HELP!!) had a vision, an imag=
inary
> > African State with it's structure adopted from old African Kingdoms/E=
mpires
> > and developed to suit the present day Africa. Valuable lessons could =
be
> > drawn from these fine scholars, as in my believe, unless we redefined
> > suitable political structures for our selves, call it "African-style
> > democracy/socialism",
>=20
> Looking forward to your contributions on these inspiring theories !!!
>=20
> Regards, Andrea
ANDREA!!
Your finger is right on the HOT BUTTON there.That amazing book
by that amazing black giant,SHEIKH ANTA DIOP,is called: Precolonial
Black Africa.
Good thinking there Andrea!! and keep up the good work down there!!
Regards Basss!!
--=20
SZDD=88=F0'3Af=A8=03
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 08:22:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Ylva Hernlund <yher@u.washington.edu>
To: BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH <KOLLS567@QATAR.NET.QA>
Cc: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>, ;
Subject: Re: (Part2) POLYGAMY IN PERSPECTIVE
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95b.970225082131.46074B-100000@dante26.u.washington.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
Is it correct that there is such a law in Senegal--you have to declare
your intention from the beginning to be monogamous or polygamous? Does
anyone know how that is enforced?=20
On Sun, 25 Feb 1996, BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH wrote:
> A couple of weeks ago,we did mention that the Senegambian region had
> been
> matrilinial before the advent of both Islam and Christianity.That fact
> is very much
> related to the subject at hand here, namely,POLYGAMY.Of course,Islam was
> there first.
> On the the subject of Polygamy itself,the Arabs did not have much
> problem,because there
> was a coincidence between what Islam was preaching and what these black
> people were practising.But ,interestingly, thats where the similarity
> ended,because whereas it was Polygamy in both cases,the Arabs could not
> quite understand why so much power should be given to these women,and
> even more confusing to them was the fact that all children were named
> after their mothers' clans and that the Ancestors that every clan
> worshipped and recognised as the founder of the clan were almost always
> Females.So,Arab Polygamy
> evolved from Arab Patrairchy whereas African Polygamy evolved from
> African Matriarchy.
> In the former,women were lustful devils who must be controlled and put
> in their proper
> places physically and morally or else society would inevitably head for
> disaster,that is hardly surprising given the fact that the entire Arab
> history is riddled with female infanticide and snatching and kidnapping
> of women to be kept in the now notorious Oriental Harems;and in the
> latter,Women were the Mothers of the Clans,the high priestesses and
> Goddesses of the Shrines through whose guidance society would know what
> direction to take.So,a world of difference there!As for our second
> friends ,the christians,when they came,they considered Polygamy as a
> barbarian culture and they expended enormous amount of energy and
> resources trying persuade the locals that anyone who wanted to save his
> soul must desist from such an abomination!perhaps that explains why they
> did so badly in selling their religion to the West Africans compared to
> the Arabs.In the Macho christian Psyche
> Eve was responsible for man's expulsion from heaven,and since SIN is
> somehow heriditary
> in christian theology,all Eves children,the women, are held accountable
> and responsible for the FALL.ST.JOHN himself was absolutely undiplomatic
> about it when he said: "Woman is the daughter of falsehood,a sentinel of
> hell,the enemy of peace;through her Adam lost Paradise." Now,there is a
> problem here! Jesus Christ had told them to increase the Kingdom of God
> through procreation,and there is no way you can manufacture children
> without somehow coming into contact with that SINFUL monster called
> Wo-MAN.But the Christian Philosophers were a bunch of smart guys,so as
> expected, they came up with a magic solution which would make the men
> less miserable, and it goes like this:Women are sinful beings,and
> associating with them
> is by default SINFUL,but if the act of sex is undertaken for the sole
> purpose of fulfilling the word of God,which is to procreate,then it is
> not sinful.Inother word,SEX is sinful,but if you do it to get children
> to increase Christians in the world,then it is not.So,this was why
> ST.PAUL wrote his that famous Doctrine in which he urged his Brothers in
> the Faith to do with only ONE,not that Jesus Christ had told him
> anything of that sort,but because his own common
> sense told him that a NECESSARY EVIL must be kept to a minimum as much
> as possible. So,we now know that Western Monogamy was not the result of
> either the Kind heartedness of Western Men nor that of their sense of
> fairness to women;and if anything
> it was the result of contempt and an old grudge for them.Anyone who
> doubts that should follow closely the almost always acrimonious debates
> between the U.S. Feminist Groups,who want 100% equality with the men in
> law and in practice,and the Conservatives,who believe that the little
> they have got so far is already too dangerous for them to handle,and
> that is destroying America's family structures and threatening mens jobs
> at the work places and most important of all ,men's egos.
>=20
> Polygamy did not come to be in black Africa simply because some African
> men one day sat
> under a tree and decided that because there was a surplus of women in
> the society each
> man should now increase the number of his sex partners.No,it wasn't that
> at all.And we will now look at some of the unique features of the
> Senegambian culture that gave rise to it.We already know that in
> precolonial Senegambia much of the food production
> was in the hands of the women,but the job of the men was
> hunting,war,protecting the security of the Kingdom,so because of the
> very nature of men's specialty many of them died quite frequently and at
> very young age.So,whenever a man died and left behind
> a young wife,that woman would automatically be given to the brother of
> the deceased whether or not he had already been married;that,to protect
> the stability,integrity and
> continuity of the children,the family,clan and society as a whole.On the
> other hand,if a man's wife could not get children,or just died
> prematurely,her sister would be married to the same man to help her get
> children in the case of infertility.It was one and the same
> thing,because the children would belong the sisters'clan.Another source
> of Polygamy was that,because it was forbidden to either kill the women
> of the Royal Family
> of a conquered people at war,those women were either taken by the King
> of the winners as additional wives or distributed among the TIEDDOS,the
> nobility,whether they had been
> married or not.These are only some of the historical and cultural
> factors that made Polygamy both possible and enduring in the Senegambian
> culture.
>=20
> So,in conclusion,we could confidently say that whereas Polygamy ,on the
> face of it ,may be unfair to some women who may not want to share their
> men with other women,there were
> some justifiable and compelling historical and cultural reasons for it.A
> collectivistic
> Society does not ignore the interests of its individuals but tends to
> attach a higher premium to the welfare and wellbeing of society in
> general.But the great human march=20
> towards a better and a more just and prosperous society never stops.The
> mistakes and shortcomings of the past must and will indeed be
> rectified.Senegambian society can retain the option of mulitple
> marriages for its majority but at the same time protect
> the rights of the minority of women who would not want to be part of
> it.That could easily be done by revising the provisions of its Family
> Law and thus insert in it
> clauses that would make it illegal for men who have promised their wives
> before marriage that they would never marry a second wife as long as
> this one is working.That
> way the betrayed wife could sue for damages and perhaps also seeks
> divorce.When our Legal System empowers our women so that they also can
> hit back hard at those men who
> irresponsibly want to run away from them after four children and ten
> years of hardwork,marriage and support for their spouses,when such power
> exists,it would no longer matter what type Prefix you put before the
> word GAMY,all that would matter is that all Gambian men would know the
> definition of marriage according to the great
> philosopher,SHOPENHAUER,who said that :"To Marry Is To Halve Your
> Rights,And Double
> Your Duties".In such an atmosphere,we would start to hear less the Lame
> Excuse that its Islam that tells us to marry more women,and more and
> more men would start to work harder to make the life of their present
> families better and better,instead of running away to create new ones
> while the old ones rot in HELL.=20
>=20
> =09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09Regards Basss!! =20
>=20
> --=20
> SZDD=88=F0'3Af=A8=03
>=20
>=20
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 02:20:51 JST +900
From: binta@iuj.ac.jp
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Fwd: No Brainers !!! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702251712.CAA09228@mlsv.iuj.ac.jp>
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How do we like these!
Lamin.
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Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 20:21:13 JST +900
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 18:35:37 +0500 (GMT+0500)
From: Debashis Ghosh <deba@protocol.ece.iisc.ernet.in>
To: "Phorepukur -- Asim Kr. Ghosal" <ada.ernet.in!asim@ada.ernet.in>,
"Amit R. Gantait" <amitg@india.ti.com>,
Sujit Banerjee <sujit@india.ti.com>,
Indranath Sengupta <sengupta@math.iisc.ernet.in>,
Soumen Saha <soumens@VNET.IBM.COM>, Supriyo Palit <riyo@india.ti.com>,
Pintu Sikdar <pinto@cge.iisc.ernet.in>,
Shibashis Chowdhury <shiba@mbu.iisc.ernet.in>,
Soumen Ghosh <soumen@miel.mot.com>,
Shubho Bhattacharya <v-sbhatt@microsoft.com>,
"Mala.A.Shivaprasad" <mala@euler.miel.mot.com>,
Ananya Sen <ananya@chemeng.iisc.ernet.in>,
Manaswita Bose <jhum@chemeng.iisc.ernet.in>,
Tulika mitra <mitra@CS.SunySB.EDU>,
Ganesh Rao <gbr6@CIDDVD1.EM.CDC.GOV>,
Dayananda Saha <dayanand@sansad.nic.in>,
Jeet Chowdhury <jeetc@wipinfo.soft.net>,
Sanjeev Akuli <akuli@wipinfo.soft.net>,
"Arvind Kr. Jha" <akjha@mlsv.iuj.ac.jp>,
Saumi Chowdhury <saumi@ipc.iisc.ernet.in>,
Debashis Sarkar <mtc9507@isical.ernet.in>,
Abhijit Poddar <abhip@hijli.iitkgp.ernet.in>,
Saunak Sen <sen@galton.uchicago.edu>
Subject: No Brainers !!! (fwd)
Message-Id: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970224183238.30615A-100000@protocol.ece.iisc.ernet.in>
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>
>I wish these people engaged their brain before they said what they said !!!!!
>
>> Whenever I watch TV and see those poor starving kids all over the
>world, I can't help but cry. I mean I'd love to be skinny like that but not
>with all those flies and death and stuff.
>> -- Mariah Carey
>
>
>> Question: If you could live forever, would you and why?
>> Answer: I would not live forever, because we should not live forever,
>because if we were supposed to live forever, then we would live forever, but
>we cannot live forever, which is why I would not live
> forever.
>> -- Miss Alabama in the 1994 Miss Universe contest
>
>>
>> Researchers have discovered that chocolate produces some of the same
>reactions in the brain as marijuana...The researchers also discovered other
>similarities between the two, but can't remember what they are.
>> --Matt Lauer on NBC's Today show, August 22
>>
>
>> I haven't committed a crime. What I did was fail to comply with the
>>law.
>> -- David Dinkins, New York City Mayor, answering accusations that
>> he failed to pay his taxes.
>>
>
>> Smoking kills. If you're killed, you've lost a very important part of
>> your life.
>> -- Brooke Shields, during an interview to become spokesperson for a
>federal anti-smoking campaign
>>
>
>> I've never had major knee surgery on any other part of my body.
>> -- Winston Bennett, University of Kentucky basketball forward
>>
>>
>> Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates
>>in the country.
>> -- Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, D.C.
>
>
>> Beginning in February 1976 your assistance benefits will be
>discontinued... Reason: it has been reported to our office that you expired
>on
>January 1, 1976.
>> -- Letter from the Illinois Department of Public Aid
>>
>>
>> The Holocaust was an obscene period in our nation's history...this
>century's history...We all lived in this century. I didn't live in this
>century.
>> -- Dan Quayle, then Indiana senator and Republican vice-presidential
>candidate during a news conference in which he was asked his opinion of the
>Holocaust
>>
>
>> Rotarians, be patriotic! Learn to shoot yourself.
>> -- Chicago Rotary Club journal, "Gyrator"
>>
>
>> The streets are safe in Philadelphia. It's only the people who make
>them unsafe.
>> -- Frank Rizzo, ex-police chief and mayor of Philadelphia
>>
>
>> I've always thought that underpopulated countries in Africa are
>>vastly
>underpolluted.
>> -- Lawrence Summers, chief economist of the World Bank, explaining
>>why
> we should export toxic wastes to Third World countries
>>
>
>> After finding no qualified candidates for the position of principal,
>the school board is extremely pleased to announce the appointment of David
>Steele to the post.
>> -- Philip Streifer, Superintendent of Schools, Barrington, Rhode
>> Island
>>
>
>> The doctors X-rayed my head and found nothing.
>> -- Dizzy Dean explaining how he felt after being hit on the head by a
>> ball in the 1934 World Series
>
---1560494--839712422-78609:#158859264--
---1560494--839647102-78609:#1210843136--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 20:43:04 -0500 (EST)
From: KTouray@aol.com
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: We must reclaim our nation
Message-ID: <970225202138_1713065761@emout11.mail.aol.com>
Mr Jagana,
I am at a loss as to why you are characterising a proposal for civil
disobedience as being a call for violence. It certainly is not and your
apparent drawing of a pararell to terrorrism in other nations is far fetched
to say the least. The whole thrust of my arguement was that our country is
being improperly run by a group of people who are bent on perpetuating
themselves through repression and manipulation while the nation founders.Like
most people i strongly believe in dialogue as being the most effective tool
to resolve conflicts wheather they philosophical, poltical or whatever.
However it is clear that this gov't is not the least bit interested in
nurturing an enviroment in which those who oppose their positions have a
reasonable chance of being heard. They have long convinced themselves that
those that are being governed would have to contend with whatever decisions
they make as opposed to operating in a participatory manner in which credence
is given to those who disagree.How do you negotiate with a group firmly
clinging to the inflexible position that those who disagree with them don't
count when it comes to matters relating to the entire nation? Do we pick the
easiest route by being passive and indifferent like we did the past decades
while havoc is being wreaked?Dialogue by defination is a two-tier engagement
and since our gov't is by design not open to dialogue, I think the only
logical step if we are to correct what is wrong with our country is to force
a dialogue through sustained civil disobedience.Acquiesience is what the
gov't expects from the citizens and as a result disrupting operations to
compell change would bring them to the realisation that at the very least the
people cannot be taken for granted. That Mr Jagana would be better for all of
us.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 03:04:36 -0500 (EST)
From: TOURAY1@aol.com
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Problem:
Message-ID: <970226030436_278280688@emout05.mail.aol.com>
Hey guys,
I've not been getting any mail lately, what's going on? If the list is still
going on can
you reinstate me again and a friend of mine call Shieriff Drammeh and his
e-mail address is shieboyc@aol.com
Yours,
Lamin.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:35:11 GMT+1
From: "Heidi Skramstad" <heidis@amadeus.cmi.no>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: (Part2) POLYGAMY IN PERSPECTIVE
Message-ID: <A8F0983547@amadeus.cmi.no>
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Hei Ylva!
I don't know the answer to your question, but people who marry at the
Cadi in Gambia (I believe very few people do) may have monogamy as a
condition specified in their marriage contract.
Heidi Skramstad
> Is it correct that there is such a law in Senegal--you have to declare
> your intention from the beginning to be monogamous or polygamous? Does
> anyone know how that is enforced?
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:18:39 +0000
From: Abdou Gibba <Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Is Western-Style Democracy suited for Africa?
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19970226101816.27af19fc@alfred.uib.no>
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At 16:17 25.02.97 +0100, Andrea Klumpp wrote:
>Abdou Gibba wrote:
>>...... that we find our selves somewhere between Western-style
>> democracy and our traditional village/community-based style of
>>governance....
>Why? The combination sounds good to my amateurish ears, whereas I
>wouldn't call it Western-style democracy. Half-n-half could make a
>whole one if the halves get the chance of growing together instead of
>hindering themselves.
ANDREA, Thanks for the challenging thoughts. You almost got me on this one.
However, you've made my point even more clear. The problem we are facing is,
one of the halves ("Western-style") is hindering the other half
("African-style"). If the latter, which also happens to be the most crucial
one in our case, is suppressed, there shall never be any progress because it
is what constitutes our socio-cultural norms. Growing together is not a bad
idea at all. In fact it is a prefect one because in it's pursuit, the good
from one side could be adopted to substitute the bad on the other side where
appropriate.
>What about the principle of consensus, practiced in many African
>societies? Isn't this democracy pure?
The issue being addressed here is not "democracy" but "style".
>>This is what inspired NYERERE into launching his
>> UJAMA (African Socialism) with it's basis at the
village/community >>level. ... Unfortunately, UJAMA turned to be a
failure.
>Again: why?? Was the idea faulty itself or only mal-practiced?? Why
>not developing, modifying, correcting the idea?
The idea was neither faulty nor mal-practiced. It just lacked the chance to
nurture to reality, thanks to the "super powerful" pro-democracy pressures.
The same way communism was fought and conquered. In the latter case, I would
say it's combined with mal-practice.
Don't you try to go get me further **LOL**..... hoping for more challenging
comments.
BASS wrote:
"That amazing book by that amazing black giant,SHEIKH ANTA DIOP,is
called: Precolonial Black Africa."
BASS! Thanks for the info. Bye the way did you receive my PM on "feasibility
studies"?
***************************************************************
* SI JAMMA!! KAIRABA KONOH!! DI MASUMEH!!..... IN PEACE!! *
* ::)))Abdou Oujimai *
* ------------------------------------------------------- *
* Centre for Studies of Environment and Resources *
* University of Bergen *
* Bergen High-Tech. Centre Ltd. *
* N-5020 BERGEN *
* NORWAY *
* *
* Tel: +47 55584214 Fax: +47 55589687 *
* Email: Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no *
***************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 10:53:44 +0000
From: Abdou Gibba <Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: We must reclaim our nation
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19970226115321.19678c46@alfred.uib.no>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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LAMIN!
Thanks to you too.
You wrote:
>What our nation needs are people who will praise when necessary but
>criticise when required. It is only when we speak our minds (good or
>evil) that our leaders can sense our desires.
We share the same views here. I am sure you have been following my postings
related to this issue. This is exactly what I have been advocating all
along. I am dreaming of a Gambia where people could express their
satisfactions or dissatisfactions either individually or in organized forms,
say Trade Unions. Developments of such a milieu should however be piecemeal
rather than immediate, taking our political history into consideration.
Examples of what I am referring to here are Halifa's letter to the President
and Dr. Kamara's piece. We are but a "young" nation that needs to grow up. A
"civil disobedience", particularly at the very wee hours of what we call a
"Second Republic", will do us no good but create chaos which, in my opinion,
we can't afford at this very critical moment....,if you know what I mean!?
***************************************************************
* SI JAMMA!! KAIRABA KONOH!! DI KASUMAI!!..... IN PEACE!! *
* ::)))Abdou Oujimai *
* ------------------------------------------------------- *
* Centre for Studies of Environment and Resources *
* University of Bergen *
* Bergen High-Tech. Centre Ltd. *
* N-5020 BERGEN *
* NORWAY *
* *
* Tel: +47 55584214 Fax: +47 55589687 *
* Email: Abdou.Gibba@smr.uib.no *
***************************************************************
------------------------------
|
|
|
Momodou
Denmark
11512 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2021 : 15:33:30
|
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 12:56:19 +0100 (MET)
From: Olafiaklinikken Olafia <olafia@online.no>
To: <Gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: WESTERN-STYLE DEMOCRACY
Message-ID: <199702261156.MAA23858@online.no>
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Hei Everybody
Yeah i like the topic, as fas as i can see and understand from my point of
view the West has a democracy that suits them. And we are very imitative
concerning what democracy is and concerns. Our interpreting of democracy is
purely based on what the western commentators of democracy teaches or tell=
us.
All this started from the very on set, we were indoctrinated by the west
first and foremost in civilisation. Whenever we are neatly dressed we
reffered as "TOUBAB" the whiteman as if we were not or are elegant in our
national dresses or to be regarded as beencivilised people. Many don=B4t=
know
or understand that the word TOUBAB is very insulting, The word actually
meant TOO BAD which was a term addressed to the whiteman for their brutality
under the slave trade. As English was not and is not the mother tongue of
our ancestors they cannot pronounce the word properly. The Egyptians taught
the Phoenicians to write and in turn they taught the Romans and they brought
it to Europe. Where is Egypt? Africa!!! Taking bath was totally unknown in
Europe and the Romans took it from Africa to Europe. Today the first place
they took bath in England is called BATH. We are always very proud and happy
when we talk or reffer to people like Cheik Anta Diop, Lumumba, Nkrumah,
Amilca Cabral and Francis Small of the Gambia and so on, but th ereal
question is are developing their intentions or following in their footsteps
How long can we tolerate failing our few dedicated ones or when are going to
develop their institutions of democracy.
The chaotic way of democracy and governing in Africa was sparked off by
obstinacy and arrogance in our own rank and files who purely imitate the
western democracy. The only way we can survive a democracy of our own is to
hold on the rope of unity and be not divided among ourselves. We should aim
at creating a compact social order to serve as model for our democracy to
be. Since morality embrace the total human conduct, the affairs of democracy
we wish could not be excluded from humanity.
A true democracy is freedom of speech, justice, equal rights, better social
agreement and so on. The hypocracy so called the democracy of the west is
perfect on their papers and speeches rather than in practice. It took the
west decades in implementing sactions on South Africa to bring about
democracy, justice and equal rights. To pass a resolution in their
parliaments, congress or whatever to fulfil one of the fundaments of
democracy like equal rights, justice and discrimination against migrants and
ethnic minorities becomes an endless debate and media circus. But to
sanction countries EG like the Gambia will be adopted within hours or even
minutes then a press conference on the hour. Who is financing the insurgents
of Savimbi to destablise a democratically elected government in Angola with
the supervision of the? The western Hypocracy.
We should refer ro Basil Davidson who said the fundamental basis of
scientific socialism started in AFRICA.
IS IT TOO MUCH DEVOTION THAT MODERNS AND MAKE THE MAN OR THE ENVIRONMENT WE
RIGHTLY PRACTICES IT.
Lets start practiscing our long lost social and democratic, significances in
our environment for the day to come.
OMAR S. SAHO CONSULTANT
ULLEVAAL UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL
DEPT. FOR STD & HIV
------------------------------
Date: 26 Feb 1997 16:13:47 +0100
From: "Jobarteh, Momodou" <Momodou.Jobarteh@hordaland.vegvesen.telemax.no>
To: "Gambia-L -Internet... ." <Gambia-l@u.washington.edu> (Return requested)
Subject: RE: faith
Message-ID: <06E483314532B006*/c=no/admd=telemax/prmd=vegvesen/o=hordaland/s=Jobarteh/g=Momodou/@MHS>
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The issues of Islam and all that it entails should not be a priority issu=
e =
on this part of the net.
Whiles it is true that one should practice what one preaches, it is also =
true that every man is accountable for his or her own deeds and so these =
issues of Faith, Islamic marriage etc. must be seen as private thing and =
should be left to the individual(s).
Ladies and gentlemen, Remember that Gambia is a secular State where human=
=
values are not based on religions background. Muslims, Christians, Pagans=
=
etc. are all equal irrespective of their religions affiliations.
And to those who insist on preaching Islam, Refer to the chapter on the =AB=
The =
unbelievers (kafiun), verse 6 where the prophet said, you shall have your=
=
religion and I shall have my religion.=BB
I hope this will put all debate(s) about religion to Rest.
Thanks
Alhagi
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 18:15:58 +0100
From: Andrea Klumpp <klumpp@kar.dec.com>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: (Part1+2) POLYGAMY IN PERSPECTIVE
Message-ID: <33146FCE.F02@kar.dec.com>
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Bass,
you answered quite a couple of questions I had and some of those I would
have had after that and some of ...
it was just fun to read your elaboration, very informative with
sometimes daring and exciting connections of theses and ideas. :-)))
Thanks!
Regards from Andrea
NB: You wrote: "...given the very simple fact that the number of female
children that are born in any given society is almost always higher than
the number of male children ..." - According to my information there
are 49% boys and 51% girls born worldwide, taking into consideration
the higher mortality of baby-boys and the higher life expectancy of
women in general - do you think that this creates an imbalance of 3-4
women per man??
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 13:06:40 -0500
From: Ceesay Soffie <Ceesay_Soffie@ems.prc.com>
To: "'GAMBIA-L@U.WASHINGTON.EDU'" <GAMBIA-L@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: ANOTHER COUP PLOT?? GNG DETENTIONS AND SUSPENSIONS
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=PRC%l=CRY1-970226180640Z-1359@mcl2.prc.com>
>From the Daily Observer, Wed. 2/26/97:-
Highly placed military sources on Monday revealed that Lieutenant
Landing Sanneh had recently been removed as the Commander of the State
Guard and subsequently arrested at the Yundum Army Barracks. Suspended
also was Major Pa Modou Ann as commander of the newly established Gambia
National Guard. According to the GNA's public relations officer, the
reason for the actions have to due with a letter allegedly written by
Lt. Sanneh "the contents of which seem to be malicious." The PRO did
not disclose the contents of the letter, said it was a subject of
military investigations, and quickly dispelled rumors that it was a coup
attempt.
According to other sources, the contents were about the infamous
November 8th attack on the base of 2nd infantry battalion at Farafeni
and that they were incriminatory.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 19:04:49 GMT
From: "Per E. Grotnes" <perg@nfh.uit.no>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Response to Moe & others
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970226202243.263f5434@draugen.nfh.uit.no>
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At 23:57 23.02.97 -0600, you wrote:
>Hello Brothers and Sisters,
> I decided to write this response to Gambia -L because there are a=20
>lot more people interseted in hearing the Qur=E1n's point of view in=20
>geology of mountains. I appologise if this isn't appropriate. Moe, the=20
>verse that you mentioned in chapter 21, verse 31 is actually a=20
>continuation of the preceding verse. That verse, number 30 contains=20
>information which was only discovered in 1973 (in science) and a nobel=20
>prize was awarded to the two scientists that did the research. The verse=
=20
>reads "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were=20
>joined together as one united piece, then We clove them asunder, and made=
=20
>from water every living thing? Will they not then believe?" The Qur=E1n=
=20
>reveals the origin of the universe - how it began from one piece. =20
>Additionally,Proof of the fact that all life originated from water was=20
>not available until the invention of the microscope. People had to wait=20
>to find out that cytoplasm, the basic substance of the cell, is made up=20
>of 80% water.
> Verse 31 reads "And we have placed on the earth firm Mountains, lest=20
>it should shake with them......" "them" here refers back to "they" at=20
>the end of the preceding verse, meaning "unbelivers" (it might be=20
>mankind in general).
> I have a book regarding geology and the Qur=E1n but unfortunately I=20
>don't have it handy right now so I'll just give you a partial answer=20
>to your question at this point. A student in geology once told me that=20
>mountains, even though they form at weak spots help stabilize that=20
>part of the earth. A valcano for example forms due to extremely high=20
>temperatures in the earth's core and the lava finds the weakest spot on=20
>the surface of the earth to come out. This results in the formation of=20
>a mountain over time. A great quantity of the lava solidifies=20
>under the ground surface and therefore the whole mountain acts like a=20
>"peg" as described in chapter 78, verse 7.
> An interesting thing about the Qur=E1n is that it constantly advices=20
>the reader to ask those who have knowledge if they want to know more=20
>about what it says or are in doubt. A few years ago a group of men in=20
>Saudi Arabia collected all the verses in the Qur=E1n which discuss=20
>embryology. They chose, as it happened, a non-Muslim who is a=20
>proffessor of embryology (Dr. keith Moore). They invited him to Saudi=20
>and said, "this is what the Qur=E1n says about your subject, is it=20
>true?" He was so surprised at what he found in the Qur=E1n. At one item=20
>in particular - the Qur=E1n's description of the human being as a=20
>"leach-like clot"(alaqah) at one stage - was new to him; but when he=20
>checked on it, he found that it was true and so he added it to his=20
>book. He went to the zoology department and asked for a picture of=20
>a leach. When he found that it looked just like a human embryo, he=20
>decided to include both pictures in one of his textbooks. I can go=20
>on forever! I will certainly post the names of these books and=20
>some url's where you can get more information. =20
>
>ASSALAMU ALAIKUM (PIECE)
>
>pl. Moe, I can mail you some piblications if you're interested in stuff=20
>like this. Just send me your mailing address.
>
>
I do not like to mess about when it comes to statements from believers, but
the above statements need clarification. What Nobel price of 1973 do you
refer to? Surely it cannot be the knowledge that the bodies of living things
consist of around 80% water? This is a knowledge as old as man almost. What
do you think people believed they were removing when drying fish or meat for
storage?
Secondly mountains do not neccessarily rise at "weak" spots in the earth
crust. Some volcanoes does a certain mountain building, but the main
mountain ranges like the Himalayas, the ranges along the american continents
etc. etc. are products of the continental drift.
I feel that people who strenously try to twist the findings of modern
science to "prove" the scriptures are doing faith a disservice. The Qur=E1n=
is
a book of faith. I does not need "defense" of veracity. Either you believe
what it says or you don't. Remember that the Book is, according to the
faith, the words of Allah, but our understanding of its sayings is rather
human.=20
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 19:53:01 +0000
From: "M'BAI OF" <O.F.M'Bai@icsl.ac.uk>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: RE: faith
Message-ID: <199702261952.TAA12864@netmail.city.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Basically what you are saying is that I have no right whatsoever to
express my views.This is one thing that has held Africa back ,
people are not given the opportunity to express themselves which
does no good but harm . This is also one reason why our leaders
carry on doing the wrongs they are doing and it is ignorant and
insensitive people like you that encourage them in doing so.
What will you do if you see a man in your neighbour's house and
you know and believe that that man is burgling that house,
irrespective of whether you know that person or not , what would you
do . Would you let him get on with it and say its private and has got
nothing to do with you or would you rather confront him cleverly
or even alert your neighbours .
If you choose to do the former , which would not surprise me when
you do, judging you fromyour unsound postings, then you cannot call
yourself a good neighbour or a true samaritan or even a good moslem
or christian or jew or even a good pagan. If you choose to do the
latter , then you can consider yourself a good neighbour etc.
Morally and legally that is what you have to do because you owe
your neighbour a duty of care .
reading
I think you need to do a lot of on "The Freedom Of Expression".
This is what gives me the right to say what I said about "faith"
which you don't understand .
There is absolutely no essence or basis in your postings.It is com-
plete and utter rubbish or what Lord Justice Denning would refer to
as "Gymnastic Contortions".
Nothing personal, I'm just speaking my mind , let me remind you that
I have the right to do since your knowledge about "Freedom of
speech and freedom of expression is very minute or even NIL.
Waky waky
OMAR F. M'BAI
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 22:28:36 GMT
From: "Per E. Grotnes" <perg@nfh.uit.no>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Business in The Gambia
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970226234630.1b7f5ffe@draugen.nfh.uit.no>
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I would like to introduce a new topic to this group. I have been told by the
gambian banks that the interest rate on a loan is a staggering 30%. How on
earth is anyone able to finance business with such interests? There must be
a good many gambian boys and girls that have aquired skills that could be
applied in small businesses. But please tell me how this can be done.
Tourism seem to be what most people believe in as a trade in The Gambia.
Hotels, restaurants or any tourist facilities cost a lot in initial
investment. Foreign investors maybe? Interest on investment in banks are
about 17%. I would like to see any business that would yield profits like
that legally (or rather I shudder of the thought). Something worth
considering here?
Some time ago someone complained about the cost of toilet paper, somehow
blaming the government for this. The late government and presumely the
present one adheres to a liberalistic economy. Should the government
interfere with the pricing on toilet paper, or any other commodity? That
would be more like a social democratic thing to do. On the other hand I felt
at the time it happened that privatising the power and the water companies
was virtually giving away part of the infrastructure to monopolies, an
endavor that even in the most liberal of all countries, US of A, would be
seen as a bad move. In The Gambia there are at least two reasons competing
companies are unlikely to appear. One is the size and structure of the land.
It is too small and too long for having more than one power grid or water
tubes. The other is the financial costs. I have an idea of producing
electricity at a nominal cost of about one dalasi per kwh. That is with
interest rates as they are elsewhere. In The Gambia these costs would rise
to five dalasi because of the bank rates. Even if that were a competitive
price, at least I refuse to let banks earn that much on my skill and
insight. Of course I could go to the aid organisations or the world bank to
get financing. Possibly I, or the government rather, would get it. That is
not the point. Any gambian with a similar idea should in principle be able
to borrow these money at home.
If I am not wrong a lot of you are studying economy. I am merely an elderly
biologist that would like to see prosperity in the country I have chosen as
my home in retirement. Please take up this problem for debate, I think that
these issues are far more important than the question of the glamourous but
utterly ugly gate in Banjul.
p.s. Why do rulers need these monuments and uniforms with frills and
decorations? I at least would rather be remembered for my good deeds than
for having been a model for a statue.
Your PerG
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 21:58:57 +0800 (SGT)
From: Serigne Mamadou <9220373@talabah.iiu.my>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Cc: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Reply to Moe S. Jallow on the Qur'an and science.
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970226211846.8843A-100000@talabah.iiu.my>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> Serigne Ka,
>
> Thank you for your introduction and welcome to Gambia-L.
>
> In reference to your above inquiry, I must first say that the question was
> put to me by a muslim friend. As I was unble to answer it, I decided to
> post it to the list. I appreciate your concern of engaging the discussion
> without a clear understanding of how it originated. Very well done!
>
> Since, I was the one who raised the question to the Mr. Alieu Jawara & the
> list members, I am writing my personal opinion about how I feel about
> Islam and Science.
>
> Foremost, I would like to make it clear that, AS A MUSLIM, I believe that
> the QURAN, the words of ALLAH, is the truth, and with our limited
> understanding we are incapable of comprehending its inner essence
> absolutely, perfectly, and completely. As human beings, we analyze
> things based on our present and past knowledge. God is the only infinite
> domain and we can never go beyond the limit that has been established by the
> Mighty Creator. This is why we see "man-made" laws changing every time
> and it is bound to change as our knowledge domain is expanded. As an
> engineer, I know how difficult it is to keep up with the latest changes
> that invalidates the old design codes and regulations. I am sure, by GOD
> willing, in due time human intelligence will overcome our current
> shortcomings and fully realize the significance of the statements made in
> the Quran in almostt 1400 years ago. A scientific validation of divine
> statements will, among other things, help to consolidate and strengthen our
> faith and make us realize the Omnipotence of the Almighty.
>
> I hope that I have not disappointed you by questioning the Quran and the
> words of God, for even in the Quran it is stated that those who are in
> doubt should ask. I also hope that you will, in one way or the other,
> share your intellectual understandings in this field.
>
> Once again, thank you
>
> Regards,
> Moe S. Jallow
>
> ==============================================================================
> mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Moe S. Jallow,
I was very pleased with your reply to my mail. I thank you very
much for the clarification you made about the issue. I do understand very
well your point.
But I would like to say, let's not get into misunderstandings. My
point was not to stop you from questioning the Qur'an. I pretty well
understood that you were trying to defend the Qur'an, based on your field
of interest, science. I am a Muslim like you and would like to defend the
Scriptures of my religion the best I could.
However here comes a problem, reason why I asked if the purpose
of the discussion was to try to prove the authenticity of the Word of God
through science or just to demonstrate the compatibility between the two. As
you said, "A scientific validation of Divine statements
will help to consolidate our faith..." But I would beg to disagree with
your point. It would be dangerous to try to validate the authority of
religion based on science. We do not have to wait for science to invent
something compatible with what the Qur'an stated and then only to
acknowledge the Qur'an as authentic. This would mean that the Qur'an does
not have any authority. Rather, science is of more authority than the
Scriptures because it has the power to validate or invalidate it. We
have, I believe, to avoid the scientification of religion. It could be
very harmful. Let remember, science is like a double egded sword. At one
time it could be in harmony with religion just to be the opponent in the
next stage. We have to be aware of it. We would be seriously stranded if
any conflict happens between the two. Because either would be valid.
The trend is that Muslim scientists are trying to show that the
Qur'an is a scientific book. Which I think is wrong. In fact I perfectly
agree with Mr. Grotnes. I hope you read his message. The Qur'an is not a
book on science. It is perfectly compartible with science, and that's it.
let us not try to torture or twist the text to suit our needs. I feel
that's what Muslim scientists are actually doing. Which is not favourable
to religion. In fact, it is a great disfavour to religion.
I hope I am clear on my points. Still you can argue me. As a
matter of fact I am expecting your message.
Thanks once again, wassalam.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 00:55:33 -0500
From: Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: RE: WESTERN-STYLE DEMOCRACY
Message-ID: <331521D5.C4D@earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I found this story and thought it would be an interesting addition to
the discussion.
Note that in Iran, there is a term limit on the presidency and that this
is the seventh presidential election since the Islamic revolution in
1979.
I have in the past wrongly "knocked" our country's new relationship with
Iran, perhaps due to popular global misconceptions about this
fascinating country. I believe that while I DEFINITELY DO NOT advocate
a similar "Islamic Revolution" back home, there is quite a bit here to
be learned.=20
Peace.
Lat
-----------------------------------------
Five candidates seeking Iran's presidency
Copyright =A9 1997 Reuter Information Service=20
DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (Feb 26, 1997 9:30 p.m. EST) - Five
candidates are running in Iran's
presidential election, with the conservative speaker of parliament the
front-runner with his promises to
usher in economic reform, analysts said Wednesday.
Interior Minister Ali Mohammad Besharati announced the date for the
election -- May 23 -- Tuesday at a
meeting with Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and provincial
governors.
The poll, the seventh since Shi'ite Muslim clergymen led a 1979 Islamic
revolution that toppled the
monarchy of Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlevi, is to elect a successor to
President Akbar Hashemi
Rafsanjani.
Rafsanjani, a pistachio farmer turned cleric and politician, is
constitutionally barred from a third four-year
term as president and is due to leave office on Aug. 3.
Ali Akbar Nateq-Nouri, conservative speaker of the 270-seat Majlis or
parliament, is rated the favorite
to succeed him.
"This is largely due to his wide public recognition. As speaker he often
gets exposure in state media, most
importantly television, so people know him," one Tehran-based analyst
said.
One of his chief backers, Mohammad Javad Larijani, said earlier this
month Nateq-Nouri was expected
to usher in a program of economic reform if he was elected. Also, the
largest groups of conservative
clergy support him.
Larijani, deputy chairman of the Majlis foreign relations committee,
said at a London news conference
Nateq-Nouri would invigorate the economy, implement a tight monetary
policy, discipline the banks and
increase security of investment.
He would also encourage private entrepreneurs, make the government
withdraw from financial and
economic activities and cut the size of the government.
Others who have already declared their candidacy are:
-- Mohammad Mohammadi Reyshahri, a hardline conservative former
intelligence (internal security)
minister and leader of Iranian pilgrims to the annual haj pilgrimage in
Saudi Arabia
-- Mohammad Khatami, minister of culture and Islamic guidance from 1982
to 1992 who is backed by
radical Islamist intellectuals. He is a presidential adviser and
president of Iran's national library
-- Saied Reza Zavareie, a veteran conservative activist who is
vice-chairman of the judiciary
-- Heshmatollah Tabarzadi, editor of Payam-e Daneshju (Student Message),
which was banned for five
years last July for allegedly publishing slander. He is
secretary-general of the National Union of Islamic
Associations of University Students, which nominated him Tuesday.
Rafsanjani's centrist backers have yet to name their candidate who, like
all other contenders, must be
approved by the 12-man supervisory body of clerics and lawyers.
People aged 15 and older in Iran's population of about 60 million are
eligible to vote.
Rafsanjani, who was elected with 63 percent of the vote, is a pragmatist
who has tried to reconcile Iran's
Islamic revolutionary ideals with the task of solving daunting economic
problems aggravated by U.S.
isolationist sanctions.
"The fact that I engaged myself a little more with economic issues was
because the country faced
economic problems as a result of the (1980-88 Iran-Iraq) war and because
of issues related to the
revolution and foreign boycotts," he said at a televised news conference
in Tehran earlier this month.
Although Rafsanjani cannot serve a third term, there has been intense
speculation that some suitably
statesman-like role would be found for him after the election.
The 62-year-old president admits to no ambitions for a job.
"I have never planned my future jobs," he told reporters. "I think that,
if I find the time, I would like to do
a few things that I have in mind and will try to divide my time between
them."
He said that among other tasks he would like to complete a book called
"The Key to the Koran" and
spend some time helping Third World countries "to benefit from the
experiences of our own revolution."
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 01:42:03 -0500 (EST)
From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Response to Moe & others
Message-ID: <9702270642.AA28310@st6000.sct.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Alieu Jawara wrote:
> > A student in geology once told me that
> >mountains, even though they form at weak spots help stabilize that
> >part of the earth. A valcano for example forms due to extremely high
> >temperatures in the earth's core and the lava finds the weakest spot on
> >the surface of the earth to come out. This results in the formation of
> >a mountain over time. A great quantity of the lava solidifies
> >under the ground surface and therefore the whole mountain acts like a
> >"peg" as described in chapter 78, verse 7.
Per Grones replied:
> Secondly mountains do not neccessarily rise at "weak" spots in the earth
> crust. Some volcanoes does a certain mountain building, but the main
> mountain ranges like the Himalayas, the ranges along the american continents
> etc. etc. are products of the continental drift.
> I feel that people who strenously try to twist the findings of modern
> science to "prove" the scriptures are doing faith a disservice. The
> Quran is
> a book of faith. I does not need "defense" of veracity. Either you believe
> what it says or you don't. Remember that the Book is, according to the
> faith, the words of Allah, but our understanding of its sayings is rather
> human.
Mr. Per Grontes,
First, let me mention to you that I am not an expert in
this area by any means and I am not in any way contradicting your notion
that mountains do not rise at "weak" spots on the earth's surface but
there is strong evidence to suggest that some mountains (e.g lava
mountains) are formed through weak openings of the surface. I would like
to add my comments on this issue so as to gain some knowledge in this
"geoscience" thing. I apologize if I'm being redundant on an issue that
you already seem to know much about. I think it would be safe to begin by
describing briefly the earth's crust.
Based on readings and research I have done in this field, I have this to say:
The entire earth's crust is divided into seven major lithospheric plates,
eighteen minor plates, and several platelets. Some of these plates are the
North American plate, the Eurasian plate, the Pacific plate, the African
plate, the South American plate, the Antarctic plate, the Indo-Australian
plate, the Philippine plate, the Arabian plate, the Caribbean plate, the
Scotia plate, the Caroline plate, the Fiji plate, etc.
These plates move very slowly. The average drifting rate of the continents
is 2.5 inches per year. The hour hand in a clock even moves about 10,000
times faster than lithospheric plates. The more massive plates move slower
than the less massive plates. Plates with heavy continental loads like the
African and the American move about 3/4" a year; whereas the plates with
lightly loaded continental crusts like the Pacific and the Cocos move
about 5" in a year. The plates are 30 to 90 miles thick. The Pacific plate
is 6,000 miles long and hardly 60 miles thick.
Evidence suggests that plate tectonics activity started about two billion
years ago. It is still going on. Mountains and volcanoes are formed by the
convergence of plates, and oceans by their pulling apart. As such
mountains tie both the ramming plates. Are they not functioning like
"pegs"? Their mass make the plate move the slowest. About 40 million years
ago, the collision of the Indian plate (part of the oceanic Indian plate)
with the southern edge of Asia gave birth to the Alpine-Himalayan mountain
chain, extending from Europe to Asia. The Indian plate was moving to the
north away from the East African coast at a rate of 100 millimeter in a
year. Later, it was slowed down to half. Now its rate of movement is 10
millimeter per year. The abnormally thick crust of the Himalayas (even in
southern Tibet, the thickness extends to 72 km) bears testimony to its
collisional birth. Further thickening was, possibly, done by the flowing
out of magma from underneath. The Indian plate advanced northward at least
2,000 km after collision. It is thought that the Himalayas rise about 2"
each year by the tectonic activities of the plates. During the past 3
million years, the Himalayas have risen about 3 km. However, the change is
not detectable because of the erosion of the peaks.
The Andes are older than the Himalayas. As long as 1000 million years ago, the
Andes were formed by the subduction of the Pacific oceanic crust under the
South American continent.
Lava mountains are formed by the ejection of lava through the openings in weak
crusts. The openings are formed by the separation of plates away from each
other. The Mid-Atlantic Ridge is such a mountain range. It is more than 12,000
feet high and 1,200 miles wide. It extends through 40,000 miles in the ocean.
It rose where American continents are pulled apart from Europe and Asia.
Geodesy, a branch of earth science, has emerged to deal with all these.
Please, send me any corrections and/or comments that you may have.
Regards,
Moe S. Jallow
==============================================================================
mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 02:03:03 -0500
From: Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Business in The Gambia
Message-ID: <331531A7.C86@earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Per E. Grotnes wrote:
>
> I would like to introduce a new topic to this group. I have been told by the
> gambian banks that the interest rate on a loan is a staggering 30%. How on
> earth is anyone able to finance business with such interests? There must be
> a good many gambian boys and girls that have aquired skills that could be
> applied in small businesses. But please tell me how this can be done.
> Tourism seem to be what most people believe in as a trade in The Gambia.
> Hotels, restaurants or any tourist facilities cost a lot in initial
> investment. Foreign investors maybe? Interest on investment in banks are
> about 17%. I would like to see any business that would yield profits like
> that legally (or rather I shudder of the thought). Something worth
> considering here?
You are right but I believe that these high interest rates, specifically
the 15%-18% on treasuries that place the prime lending rate in the mid
to high 20% range, are greatly due to the former Structural Adjustment
Programme (SAP) and the Economic Recovery Programme (ERP) that has been
carried over from the Jawara regime and somewhat thrusted upon us by the
Bretton Woods institutions. The high rates and tariffs were meant in
part to lower imports particularly 'luxury' imports.
I should note that there are many Gambians struggling abroad and saving
cash for future investment but the smarter ones are buying treasury
bills rather than the more solid, economically productive but risky
investments because of the high (treasury) rate of return.
Investment needs boosting as does employment. As you said, rather than
searching for the trickles of foreign investment, internal financial
institutions need to pick up the slack but not at these extortionary
rates!
I think that we need to revisit these programmes because the 1994 coup
and its consequences seem to have inadvertently brought most of the
objectives of these programmes into place. Imports are extremely low,
inflation is now low again, government expenditure is low (20% lower)
and the foreign exchange rates are quite stable (9.5 - 10 D to he $).
Even the pro-SAPers must consider that perhaps it may be time to lower
the rates.
> tubes. The other is the financial costs. I have an idea of producing
> electricity at a nominal cost of about one dalasi per kwh. That is with
> interest rates as they are elsewhere. In The Gambia these costs would rise
> to five dalasi because of the bank rates. Even if that were a competitive
> price, at least I refuse to let banks earn that much on my skill and
> insight. Of course I could go to the aid organisations or the world bank to
> get financing. Possibly I, or the government rather, would get it. That is
> not the point. Any gambian with a similar idea should in principle be able
> to borrow these money at home.
Good point!
There are many bright (well educated) potential Gambian entrepreneurs
with great business ideas and the experience to back them that have this
problem. Many of them sit on there ideas only to see foreigners with
access to capital turning the same ideas into reality in front of their
very noses.
In my extremely lay and amateurish point of view, I think the government
needs to act quickly to take advantage of the status quo. As someone
noted earlier, the rates are slowly rising and so will inflation.
Contrary to some of the crap (pardon me) that has been mentioned
previously, the economic situation is indeed taking a turn for the
worse. Both in the urban and rural areas, the country is becoming more
and more cash-strapped. Those of you who are accustomed to sending
money back home may have noticed the rise in calls for more 'halis' and
invitation letters!
Word around town was that the economic 'Khilifas', the BIG businessmen,
were holding off during the transition period out of lack of confidence,
particularly with infamous commissions going on (Has the commission on
the Ports Authority concluded yet?). Again as someone else mentioned
earlier, this all confirmed that there was indeed a profound "trickle
down effect" in the economy. The current cabinet crisis is not helping
the situation either.
Peace.
Lat
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 09:50:05 -0500 (EST)
From: "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: FWD: PROGRAMMER/DATA ANALYST; Forestry Related (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702271450.JAA02785@oak.ffr.mtu.edu>
Content-Type: text
Forwarded message:
> From owner-forgrad-l-outgoing@mtu.edu Wed Feb 26 16:29:16 1997
> X-Received: MTU Resend v1.1 for forgrad-l
> Message-Id: <3.0.16.19970226162908.3737fb48@141.219.149.237>
> X-Sender: jmoore@141.219.149.237
> X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (16)
> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:29:09 -0500
> To: forgrad-l@mtu.edu
> From: "James B. Moore" <jmoore@mtu.edu>
> Subject: FWD: PROGRAMMER/DATA ANALYST; Forestry Related
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> Precedence: list
> Reply-To: forgrad-l@mtu.edu
>
> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:17:21 -0500
> To: dabaril@mtu.edu, forgrad-l@mtu.edu
> From: "David D. Reed" <ddreed@mtu.edu>
> Subject: JOB: PROGRAMMER/DATA ANALYST; Forestry Related
>
> >Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:51:20 -0500
> >Reply-To: FOREST Mailing list on forest research and studies
> <FOREST@LISTSERV.FUNET.FI>
> >Sender: OWNER-FOREST@LISTSERV.FUNET.FI
> >From: Paul Van Deusen <pvandeus@TUFTS.EDU>
> >Subject: JOB: PROGRAMMER/DATA ANALYST; Forestry Related
> >To: Multiple recipients of list FOREST <FOREST@LISTSERV.FUNET.FI>
> >
> >SCIENTIFIC PROGRAMMER/DATA ANALYST
> >C/C++, Matlab and/or SAS, Sun & PC Platforms
> >
> >Apply your analytical skills in a scientific research environment at a
> >university setting. Applicants must have strong programming skills and
> >experience working with large datasets. This position will offer an
> >opportunity to work with networked PC's, Sun workstations, and
> >statistical data analysis as well as HTML and CGI programming. A
> >background or interest in wildlife biology or forestry would be a
> >plus.
> >
> >The National Council for Air and Stream Improvement (NCASI) is
> >addressing environmental issues concerning the U.S. forest products
> >industry. This position will be filled at the NCASI Northeast Regional
> >Center located on the Tufts University campus in Medford, MA. Send
> >resume and salary history to: Paul Van Deusen, NCASI, P.O. Box 53015,
> >Medford, MA 02153. Application deadline is March 31, 1997. NCASI is an
> >equal opportunity/affirmative action employer.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> James B. Moore
> Systems Administrator
> School of Forestry and Wood Products
> Michigan Technological University
> Houghton, Michigan 49931
> Internet: jmoore@mtu.edu
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:08:40 +0000
From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: New member
Message-ID: <19970227150716.AAA28060@LOCALNAME>
Gambia-l,
Abdoulie Dibba has been added to the list and as a custom, we
expect to have an introduction from him. Welcome to the Gambia-l
Mr. Dibba, please send an introduction of yourself to the list.
Best regards
Momodou Camara
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:52:12 +0100
From: "A.Dibba" <adibba@online.no>
To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Cc: "Maudo M Keita (E-mail)" <msm2mk@surrey.ac.uk>
Subject: New member
Message-ID: <01BC24CE.ABCB6DB0@NTWK4_0_96-31>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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------ =_NextPart_000_01BC24CE.ABCB6DB0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Brothers and Sisters on the Net. !!!
Am happy to join the GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing =
List.
My name is ABDOULIE DIBBA, I came from the GAMBIA and now am living in =
Norway, in a small town call TONSBERG (110 km south of OSLO). My hobbies =
include computers, electronics and reggae music....=20
My occupation: Electrical-Automation and Computer Engineer...
And now am studying COMPUTER SCIENCES at...(Part time.)
<!-- ** Suggestion: You can add additional bullet items by copying the =
examples. ** -->
<!-- ** Suggestion: Add additional links simply by copying the examples =
below. ** -->UNIVERSITY OF OSLO=20
My former SCHOOL (HSV)=20
TONSBERG the town I live in.=20
Abdoulie Dibba =20
Postbox 2089
N-3103 T=F8nsberg, Norway
T/F (Oslo) + 47 22 25 51 89 email: adibba@online.no
T/F (Tbg) + 47 33 36 94 93 Mob: +47 92 24 35 90
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:27:53 -0500 (EST)
From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Business in The Gambia
Message-ID: <9702271927.AA50524@st6000.sct.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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> In The Gambia there are at least two reasons competing
> companies are unlikely to appear. One is the size and structure of the land.
> It is too small and too long for having more than one power grid or water
> tubes. The other is the financial costs. I have an idea of producing
> electricity at a nominal cost of about one dalasi per kwh. That is with
> interest rates as they are elsewhere. In The Gambia these costs would rise
> to five dalasi because of the bank rates. Even if that were a competitive
> price, at least I refuse to let banks earn that much on my skill and
> insight. Of course I could go to the aid organisations or the world bank to
> get financing. Possibly I, or the government rather, would get it. That is
> not the point. Any gambian with a similar idea should in principle be able
> to borrow these money at home.
I would like to add one more reason why competing companies are unlikely
to appear. Corruption! In my case, however, I would like to generalize the
whole of Africa...not just Gambia. Every corrupt regime in the history of
Africa can trace its roots to the White-European infestation of greed
which corrupts leaders all accross Africa. Many investors especially in
the U.S, do obey the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act and cannot bid on projects
in Africa because they cannot pay bribes.
Please, tell me how one can approach the united nations to ask for a global
corrupt practices act that would allow honest business people the ability
to compete honestly for things that Africa needs....Communications
infrastructure, bridges, railways, power plants, schools etc.
These are all basic infrastructure that always seems to be paid for in
Africa but nothing gets built. Why? Greed and careless concern for the
African people. Last year, a company I worked for lost a mega business deal in
Nigeria simply because we could not legally pay the $400,000 bribe that
the competitors came in with to bribe the "Abacha Dogs". My company's
proposal was most cost effective and included better solutions and
technology. When the company confronted the Nigerians, they told us that
they would get back to us...but never did.
Let's take a look at SHELL OIL in Nigeria for example. If it wasn't for
SHELL OIL, Nigerian dictators would not have the grip on power the way
they have.They are raping the country and Abacha sits there and sends the
money to switzerland where white bankers invest it for him into money
market funds in the US. The Europeans do not want to stop corruption
because they make billions being money managers for the African leaders
like Mobuto of Zaire. How much do you think the Europeans charge him to
manage $10 billion a year? Do you think the money just sits there?
Once again, this is the same situation all over black Africa including the
Gambia. To play in a fair level field in African business, the European
Union must form strong laws to stop bribery and corruption. And to do
this, they must clean up the corruption in Europe first...and then the
Japanese and Chinese.
I know that the topic is "Business in the Gambia" and I am sorry if I was
out of context but I always get carried away when it comes to African
business discussion. I can't talk about Gambia without generalizing
Africa as the same games are played.
Regards,
Moe S. Jallow
==============================================================================
mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:57:25 -0500
From: "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Cc: msjaiteh@mtu.edu
Subject: Re: Business in The Gambia
Message-ID: <199702272157.QAA08673@spruce.ffr.mtu.edu>
I am no economist but it had always had the belief substantial investment in the Gambia cannot be realized without adequate and reliable energy supply. While the size of the country may discourage competition, it could also be an advantage. Personally, I believed that the government particularly the former didn't do a good job (if it did any) for the energy situation. Once I asked aan engineer with the then famous GUC why the company chosed to rely on many small power generation units intead of onelocated in the center of the country? His reasons for chosing the former were many and perhaps convincing to win the conversation of the day. I hope there are engineers and economist out there to help be answer these. Is it not possible for the government to invite companies (outsiders) to invest in building a national power systems like in the case of Gambia Telecoms? What are the obstacles that would prevent them from the kind of success Gamtel enjoys?
Malanding
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 17:13:02 CST
From: "Numukunda Darboe" <ndarboe@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Response to Moe & others
Message-ID: <ndarboe.1207472822C@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu>
>Alieu Jawara wrote:
>
>> > A student in geology once told me that
>> >mountains, even though they form at weak spots help stabilize that
>> >part of the earth. A valcano for example forms due to extremely high
>> >temperatures in the earth's core and the lava finds the weakest spot on
>> >the surface of the earth to come out. This results in the formation of
>> >a mountain over time. A great quantity of the lava solidifies
>> >under the ground surface and therefore the whole mountain acts like a
>> >"peg" as described in chapter 78, verse 7.
>
>
>Per Grones replied:
>
>> Secondly mountains do not neccessarily rise at "weak" spots in the earth
>> crust. Some volcanoes does a certain mountain building, but the main
>> mountain ranges like the Himalayas, the ranges along the american continents
>> etc. etc. are products of the continental drift.
>> I feel that people who strenously try to twist the findings of modern
>> science to "prove" the scriptures are doing faith a disservice. The
>> Quran is
>> a book of faith. I does not need "defense" of veracity. Either you believe
>> what it says or you don't. Remember that the Book is, according to the
>> faith, the words of Allah, but our understanding of its sayings is rather
>> human.
>
>
It would have been much clearer had you elaborated on the statement that "
the main mountain ranges like the Himalayas, the ranges along the american
continents etc. etc. are products of the continental drift." What Mr Jallow
mentioned justifies the the fact that it is the same lava flow that results
to the formation of these mountains and hence fuctioning as pegs.
Although these mountains might be a result of continental drift, correct me
if I am wrong, I believe it is the moving apart of the land masses that
causes weaknesses through the earth's Mantle and Crust that enables the lava
to reach the surface. So for that matter I dont see mr Jawara in any how
"strenuously" using modern Science to support the revelation in the Quran.
Again I am not a geographer , nor have I made any research on this topic.
>From my high school geography, I know in the theory of continental drift,
the solid crust is floating on the liquid Core (hence the name drift). The
moving apart of the land masses cause the formation of fault lines which
serve as channels for the lava. From this the idea of sea floor spreading
comes into play which can explain the existence of the stream of Islands in
the pacific.
Any geographers on the list please help us out.
Numukunda
********************************************************************************
Numukunda Darboe
Chemistry Dept.
University of Mississippi
(601) 232 5143 Lab
(601) 236 6934 Home
********************************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:45:03 JST +900
From: binta@iuj.ac.jp
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Business in The Gambia
Message-ID: <199702280237.LAA14338@mlsv.iuj.ac.jp>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Gambia-l,
The discussion on 'conditions of business in the Gambia' are indeed
interesting, and I would wish to contribute this little.
First, I agree with Moe, but suffice it to say that lambasting the
West (Europe) for the throes and woes of (Black) Africa will never
solve our problems. If European corporations can bribe African
officials in order to win contracts, that is our problem. We must
begin to realise that the rest of the world cannot and must not wait
for us to catch up while we bask in greed and conspicuous spending--
the latter, a thing we dearly love. We might as well ask: why are
Africans so disloyal to their countrymen and women?
Coming to the thrust of this subject, I do agree that the cost of
investment funding in the Gambia is high. Thanks to Latir for a good
and simple expose. However, high interest rates tend to be both a
cause and an effect of a weak economic condition. Before I left home
in 1995, the 3-month treasury bill rate which serves a a benchmark in
our economy was a phenominal 18%. The way it is set has oligopolistic
tendencies from the demand side. The bid system is skewed in that
the handful financial institutions in the country which form the demand
side of T-Bills are very few. Consequently, they affect the pricing
a lot. Here is where the Central Bank comes in but I cannot fathom
how IMF's SAP continues to affect the setting of this rate. Granted
that interest rates were liberalised in 1985, but if after 10 years of
liberalisation the rate reamins this high, other possible explanatory
factors need to be found. Perhaps we must look at the structure of
the economy and how it functions. A pretty big chunk of business
dealings in the Gambia continue to take place outside the realms of
organised institutions. Second, with low incomes and the consequent
high propensity to consume, the rate of savings in the Gambia is low.
Simply put, investible funds are in short supply. This necessitates
the dictates of market forces to price bank borrowings at a high level.
Third, we must go to a fundamental principle in the theory of Finance
for another reason i.e., interest rates are meant to price risk.
Since the informal sector in the Gambia is big and considering that
many firms do not prepare adequate financial statements, there is
what we call 'information asymmetry'. The lenders of funds (banks) do
not possess as much information about the borrowers and hence they
price their funds to mitigate such inherent risks. Real interest rates
must also be positive for lenders to lend. With an inflation rate
of around 10%, interest rates must be at least that high for us to
put our hard earned monies in banks. Treasury bills carry about the
lowest risk of default and they are priced accordingly. But if those
bills can attract 18% interest, we cannot expect banks to loan out
funds below that rate. I would not be surprised if lending rates in
the Gambia are as high as the initiator of this discussion suggested.
To correct this problem requires fundamental changes in our economy.
First, we must recognise that the market mechanism is flawed but there
is little the Central Bank can do about that because we are in an era
of the free market system. Do not get me wrong! I still believe
that governments have a big role to play, especially in a developing
country like ours. But it may not be prudent for them to play with
the interest rate. We must also remember that interest rates are
presumably higher in neighbouring countries. Even some of the rising
giants of Asia, eg Indonesia, are still saddled with high costs of
financing. More appropriate ways of encouraging foreign investment
must be implemented. Gambians must begin to recognise the need for
thrift and the dislike for conspicuous spending. Exports must
increase way above imports for extra funds to come to our shores.
Government must tighten the loopholes in income generating departments
such as Customs,and Income Tax departments to enable it reduce its
dependency on public borrowing. These measures are hard to implement
and the time lag between implementation and fruition could be long.
But when government's demand for funds are this high, private
businesses are 'crowded out'(squeezed) from the borrowing market. As
they scurry from the left-over funds at banks, interest rates are bid
higher up in the process.
I hope I have not messed up the situation more than it were. Sorry
for the rambling!
Lamin Drammeh.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:53:15 -0600 (CST)
From: umjawara@cc.UManitoba.CA
To: Gambia-l <Gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Response to Per
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970227171222.29028B-100000@mira.cc.umanitoba.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I would like to make a small correction that instead of 1973 it was
1978 that 2 astrophysicists namely, A.A. Penzias and R.W. Wilson were
awarded the Nobel Prize for their detection of microwave background
radiation, which supported the theory that the universe was created by a
"big bang" as opposed to the "steady state" theory. The findings of
Penzias and Wilson indcated that the universe is an "open" system
continually expanding from the initial "bang" until it loses momentum
and becomes still and lifeless. Now listen to the following verses of
the Qur'an and tell me how anyone (let alone an illiterate) could come
up with something like that 1400 years ago if it's not divine revelation.
"DO NOT THE UNBELIEVERS SEE THAT THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WERE
JOINED TOGETHER, THEN WE CLOVE THEM ASUNDER AND WE GOT FROM EVERY
LIVING THING OUT OF THE WATERS. WILL THEY NOT THEN BELIEVE?" (21:30)
"THE HEAVEN, WE HAVE BUILT IT WITH POWER, VERILY WE ARE EXPANDING
IT" (51:47)
The issue of geology, Moe Jallow and Numukunda have dealt with very
well. Please contact geologists if you're in doubt (as the Qur'an advises).
I've read about world class geologists who were amazed about their findings
in the Qur'an.
I would want to mention very clearly that the Qur'an does not need
our defense, we turn on to the Qur'an for guidance and knowledge.
Islam is a way of life which doesn't differentiate between religion
and interlect (these two are intertwined). An uneducated Muslim who
doesn't know much about the Quran, for example, would tell you "don't
listen to the big bang theory, the universe is created by God".
How can you seperate the Qur'an from sceince or vice versa? The
Qur'an constantly gives you facts and tell you to "research it". The
Qur'an is an ultimate miracle and a challenge for mankind till the
day of judgement. God supports his Prophets with signs (or miracles or
challenges for mankind), "Ayah", in arabic. For example, Jesus (May God
bless him) came at a time when medicine was very popular and God gave him
the power to heal the blind, the leper, raise the dead back to life,
etc. Moses(may God bless him) came when magic was very common and he came
with clear signs that "swallowed" the magic of the world's most renown
magicians. You'll agree with me that if God sends his last messanger to
all mankind he's gotto have signs that wil stay with mankind till the day
of judgement- that's the Qur'an. It didn't only challenge the arabs of
its time with its beautiful poetry and told theem "produce a chapter of
its like thereoff if you're in doubt", it challenges mankind up to date
with the most accurate information, about Geology, Physics, Zoology,
Botany, Embryology, knowledge of far awy places etc., etc. The challenge
is simple, just "prove it wrong". Join the men who tried to do this ever
since the first revelation!
Today man knows very well how rain is formed, this was not the
belief that scientists in the day of the Qur'an had but the the Qur'an
describes it exactly the way we know it today. Finally I'll let you know
that the Qur'an is not just a collection of accurate statements but these
facts can only be proved after great scientific research. Also don't tell
me that you knew a cell was made up of about 80% water before the
invention of the microscope.
Alieu Jawara.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 23:17:26 -0500 (EST)
From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Alieu Jawara's message
Message-ID: <9702280417.AA54078@st6000.sct.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Mr. Jawara,
Thank you so much for the interesting and thoughtful replies to my
question about the stability of mountains. In this very busy world, I most
sincerely thank you for the fact that you took time to write replies, some
of which required and took a lot of your time. Your answers were quite
helpful.
In my original posting, i mentioned that I had 2 questions which have now
been reduced to 1. I was planning to ask it immediately but after reading
the postings from some of the members, I can feel some hostility building.
Therefore, I would rather send this question to you privately if you do
not mind. I do not intend to interrupt the more appreciated conversation
going on the list.
As this issue reaches some resolution, I will forward you privately my
second question.
Thanks again for your time, responses and invaluable help.
Regards,
Moe S. Jallow
===============================================================================
mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
P.S
Brother Serigne Mamadou Ka, I am caught in between a big project at hand.
Hence the delay for my reply to you. I will most willingly reply to your
message privately sometime this weekend. Have a good weekend.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:24:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Shieboyc@aol.com
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: New member
Message-ID: <970228002443_1980733310@emout18.mail.aol.com>
02/27/97
I am grateful being a member of the Gambia on line.
For a brief introduction I am Sheriff Drammeh
>From :- Latrikunda German
D.O.B. 12/16/68
Schools:- latrikunda primary
Nusrat High School
Gambia college, school of Public Health
Worked with the ministry of health of the Gambia as a senior health
superintendent
at:- medical headquarters
Bwiam health centre
Farafenni H/C and Fajikunda H/C before America.
Hobbies:- reading, sports and having fun.
Presently in Maryland, silverspring.
Nice to hear from you all and peace.
shieboyc@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:17:56 -0500 (EST)
From: MJagana@aol.com
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Business in The Gambia
Message-ID: <970227221632_620549771@emout19.mail.aol.com>
Dear MOE,
I very much support you on the issues you raised. And it is sad that all over
Africa our leaders are borrowing heavly, only to pocket all the loans they
get.
I could remember, about two years ago the Nigerian finace minster was in the
UK. A journalists, asked the Hon. minster about 12 billion pounds sterling
that was supposed to be missing in the ABUJA PROJECT BUDGET.
The minster's answer was simple. " he said it was a matter of inflation, only
a matter of debits and credits".
So what can we say.
momodou jagana
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:28:02 -0500 (EST)
From: MJagana@aol.com
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: New member
Message-ID: <970227222626_2095415832@emout13.mail.aol.com>
Dear Momodou Camara,
Kindly enlist the following to Gambia L.
Omar Barry OXB00272@STUDENT.ASTATE.EDU
Annie AB0613147@GWMAIL.KYSU.EDU
Zainaba F Jawara 94090720@94.HUMBER.AC.UK
thank you
momodou jagana
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 08:39:26 GMT
From: "Per E. Grotnes" <perg@nfh.uit.no>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Business in The Gambia
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970228095719.1b976e6a@draugen.nfh.uit.no>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>I would like to add one more reason why competing companies are unlikely
>to appear. Corruption! In my case, however, I would like to generalize the
>whole of Africa...not just Gambia. Every corrupt regime in the history of
>Africa can trace its roots to the White-European infestation of greed
>which corrupts leaders all accross Africa. Many investors especially in
>the U.S, do obey the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act and cannot bid on projects
>in Africa because they cannot pay bribes.
>
>Please, tell me how one can approach the united nations to ask for a global
>corrupt practices act that would allow honest business people the ability
>to compete honestly for things that Africa needs....Communications
>infrastructure, bridges, railways, power plants, schools etc.
>
>These are all basic infrastructure that always seems to be paid for in
>Africa but nothing gets built. Why? Greed and careless concern for the
>African people. Last year, a company I worked for lost a mega business deal in
>Nigeria simply because we could not legally pay the $400,000 bribe that
>the competitors came in with to bribe the "Abacha Dogs". My company's
>proposal was most cost effective and included better solutions and
>technology. When the company confronted the Nigerians, they told us that
>they would get back to us...but never did.
>
>Let's take a look at SHELL OIL in Nigeria for example. If it wasn't for
>SHELL OIL, Nigerian dictators would not have the grip on power the way
>they have.They are raping the country and Abacha sits there and sends the
>money to switzerland where white bankers invest it for him into money
>market funds in the US. The Europeans do not want to stop corruption
>because they make billions being money managers for the African leaders
>like Mobuto of Zaire. How much do you think the Europeans charge him to
>manage $10 billion a year? Do you think the money just sits there?
>
>Once again, this is the same situation all over black Africa including the
>Gambia. To play in a fair level field in African business, the European
>Union must form strong laws to stop bribery and corruption. And to do
>this, they must clean up the corruption in Europe first...and then the
>Japanese and Chinese.
>
>I know that the topic is "Business in the Gambia" and I am sorry if I was
>out of context but I always get carried away when it comes to African
>business discussion. I can't talk about Gambia without generalizing
>Africa as the same games are played.
>
>Regards,
>Moe S. Jallow
>
>==============================================================================
> mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
I fear I will be stepping on toes in this one:
Stop complaining about the "white man" and look into yourself. Corruption
exists everywhere, but the people of some nations see it as immoral and do
take action against it as often as they can reveal it. Don't cry for foreign
assistance for cleaning up what may be happening in your own country. There
are at present only two fields of "export" industry in The Gambia,
groundnut and tourism. Neither are very profitable and do not lure any
corrupt large investors to exploit this country. The only source of income
that matters here is foreign aid. The gambian economy itself is too poor to
yield enough for anyone but small crooks from abroad. Hence the money stolen
is out of the pockets of well meaning people from abroad, socalled foreign
aid. Now those money usually anyhow disappear back into the pockets of
bussinessmen of the "generous" countries. Look around in The Gambia. There
are more than one useless monument of well intentioned aid projects left
standing empty, shrimp farms, trawlers and so on. The main investment went
back to the donators in the form of payment for consultants, constructors
and products. A certain amount of money possibly went into the pockets of
high officials. In some instances this is the only part that went to the
"receiving" country. (I am a little harsh here. I would not include the many
smaller relegious and humanitarian aid organisations in this scheme. Mostly
these do a marvellous job, but then they do not have too much money.)
No my friend, Moe, your (the gambian) problem as I see it stems from an
internal economy that cannot support decent wages for the ones set to
administrate the economy. Such wages cannot be paid unless the people as a
whole increases their income. Internal production, not neccessarily for
export, must increase before the whole mess can improve.
I am amazed. In my old age I haven't yet learnt to keep my mouth shut.
Please bear with me fellows.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 08:52:08 GMT
From: "Per E. Grotnes" <perg@nfh.uit.no>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Business in The Gambia
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970228101002.1b97a79c@draugen.nfh.uit.no>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 16:57 27.02.97 -0500, you wrote:
>I am no economist but it had always had the belief substantial investment
in the Gambia cannot be realized without adequate and reliable energy
supply. While the size of the country may discourage competition, it could
also be an advantage. Personally, I believed that the government
particularly the former didn't do a good job (if it did any) for the energy
situation. Once I asked aan engineer with the then famous GUC why the
company chosed to rely on many small power generation units intead of
onelocated in the center of the country? His reasons for chosing the former
were many and perhaps convincing to win the conversation of the day. I hope
there are engineers and economist out there to help be answer these. Is it
not possible for the government to invite companies (outsiders) to invest in
building a national power systems like in the case of Gambia Telecoms? What
are the obstacles that would prevent them from the kind of success Gamtel
enjoys?
>
>
>Malanding
>
>
>
Here we go again. I cannot keep my mouth shut.
Do not talk about the success of Gamtel in providing service. I just
recently got the message from The Gambia that I could not get a phone for my
work there. There is a lack of phone numbers! On the other hand I could not
have afforded it were it not for the fact that my phone bills would be paid
by my university. The prices are forbiddingly high. I also have a concern
that the lines are too poor to support a two-way computer communication
back home.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 11:52:38 +0300
From: BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH <KOLLS567@QATAR.NET.QA>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Response to Per
Message-ID: <313417D6.66AE@QATAR.NET.QA>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
umjawara@cc.UManitoba.CA wrote:
>=20
> I would like to make a small correction that instead of 1973 it=
was
> 1978 that 2 astrophysicists namely, A.A. Penzias and R.W. Wilson were
> awarded the Nobel Prize for their detection of microwave background
> radiation, which supported the theory that the universe was created by =
a
> "big bang" as opposed to the "steady state" theory. The findings of
> Penzias and Wilson indcated that the universe is an "open" system
> continually expanding from the initial "bang" until it loses momentum
> and becomes still and lifeless. Now listen to the following verses of
> the Qur'an and tell me how anyone (let alone an illiterate) could come
> up with something like that 1400 years ago if it's not divine revelatio=
n.
>=20
> "DO NOT THE UNBELIEVERS SEE THAT THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WERE
> JOINED TOGETHER, THEN WE CLOVE THEM ASUNDER AND WE GOT FROM EVERY
> LIVING THING OUT OF THE WATERS. WILL THEY NOT THEN BELIEVE?" (21:30)
>=20
> "THE HEAVEN, WE HAVE BUILT IT WITH POWER, VERILY WE ARE EXPANDI=
NG
> IT" (51:47)
> The issue of geology, Moe Jallow and Numukunda have dealt with =
very
> well. Please contact geologists if you're in doubt (as the Qur'an advis=
es).
> I've read about world class geologists who were amazed about their find=
ings
> in the Qur'an.
> I would want to mention very clearly that the Qur'an does not n=
eed
> our defense, we turn on to the Qur'an for guidance and knowledge.
> Islam is a way of life which doesn't differentiate between religion
> and interlect (these two are intertwined). An uneducated Muslim who
> doesn't know much about the Quran, for example, would tell you "don't
> listen to the big bang theory, the universe is created by God".
> How can you seperate the Qur'an from sceince or vice versa? The
> Qur'an constantly gives you facts and tell you to "research it". The
> Qur'an is an ultimate miracle and a challenge for mankind till the
> day of judgement. God supports his Prophets with signs (or miracles or
> challenges for mankind), "Ayah", in arabic. For example, Jesus (May God
> bless him) came at a time when medicine was very popular and God gave h=
im
> the power to heal the blind, the leper, raise the dead back to life,
> etc. Moses(may God bless him) came when magic was very common and he c=
ame
> with clear signs that "swallowed" the magic of the world's most renown
> magicians. You'll agree with me that if God sends his last messanger to
> all mankind he's gotto have signs that wil stay with mankind till the d=
ay
> of judgement- that's the Qur'an. It didn't only challenge the arabs of
> its time with its beautiful poetry and told theem "produce a chapter of
> its like thereoff if you're in doubt", it challenges mankind up to date
> with the most accurate information, about Geology, Physics, Zoology,
> Botany, Embryology, knowledge of far awy places etc., etc. The challen=
ge
> is simple, just "prove it wrong". Join the men who tried to do this ev=
er
> since the first revelation!
> Today man knows very well how rain is formed, this was not the
> belief that scientists in the day of the Qur'an had but the the Qur'an
> describes it exactly the way we know it today. Finally I'll let you kno=
w
> that the Qur'an is not just a collection of accurate statements but the=
se
> facts can only be proved after great scientific research. Also don't te=
ll
> me that you knew a cell was made up of about 80% water before the
> invention of the microscope.
>=20
> Alieu Jawara.
MR.JAWARA!
WE RESPECT YOUR ENTHUSIASM AND WE ADMIRE YOUR ENERGY TO PROVE THAT
ISLAM IS THE BEST RELIGION ANY HUMAN BEING CAN BELIEVE IN.BUT AS YOU
HAVE BEEN ADVISED BEFORE,THE SCIENTIFICATION OF ISLAM,AND ANY OTHER
RELIGION FOR THAT MATTER, IS A VERY DANGEROUS BUSINESS,INDEED.AS A
SCIENTIST BORN IN A CHRISTIAN CULTURE,Per KNOWS VERY WELL WHAT HAPPENED
WHEN THE ZEALOTS AMONG THE CHRISTIAN THEOLOGIANS TRIED TO PROVE TO THE
WORLD THAT THEIR HOLY SCRIPTURES COULD STAND THE VIGOURS OF SCIENTIFIC
EXAMINATION.THE RESULT WAS THAT
JUDEO-CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES FAILED THE SCIENCE TEST MISERABLY.THAT IS
BECAUSE IN A SCIENCE TEST YOU CAN'T PASS THE TEST BY SIMPLY PASSING 40%
AND NOT PASSING THE REMAINING 60%.DO NOT TRY TO INTIMIDATE Per BY TRYING
TO FORCE THINGS INTO HIS MOUTH THAT HE DIDN'T SAY.HE KNOWS THAT
MANY OF US ON THIS LIST ARE MOSLEMS AND BECAUSE OF THAT HE DOESN'T WANT
TO HURT OUR FEELINGS.BUT I ,AS A MOSLEM WHO KNOWS WHAT I AM TALKING
ABOUT WHEN TALKING ABOUT ISLAM, I WILL DO HIS DIRTY WORK FOR HIM:IF YOU
WANT ALL THE NON-BELIEVERS TO BELIEVE THAT ISLAM CAN SURVIVE THE
RUTHLESS VIGOURS OF THE LABORATORY TEST OF SCIENCE,YOU SHOULD STOP
CHOOSING THE BITS AND PIECES OF THE VERSES THAT SEEM TO SUPPORT YOUR
ARGUMENTS,AND INSTEAD, START RIGHT FROM PAGE ONE OF THE Quran TO THE
Last AND TEST EVERYTHING,AND IF EVERYTHING ADDS UP,YOU THEN SEND YOUR
FINDINGS TO THE SCIENTISTS TO THE VARIOUS CAPITALS OF THE WORLD SO THAT
YOUR FINDINGS COULD BE RETESTED AND VERIFIED IN EACH OF THESE CAPITALS.
AND IF AFTER ALL THAT YOUR FINDINGS HAVE NOT COLAPSED, THEN VERY FEW
PEOPLE WOULD HAVE REASON TO ARGUE WITH YOU AFTERWARDS.BECAUSE THAT IS
HOW YOU BUILD AN AEROPLANE AND THAT=20
IS HOW YOU MANUFACTURE A CONTRACEPTIVE PILL THAT WOULD PREVENT YOU FROM
GETTING PREGNANT.
MR.JAWARA,ISLAM IS A GREAT RELIGION,NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT, BUT YOU MUST
UNDERSTAND THAT HOWEVER GREAT IT IS,ITS JUST A MEANS AND NOT AN END IN
ITSELF.IT IS A MEANS OF HELPING YOU MAKE A SENSE OF THE WORLD AROUND
YOU,LEAD A PEACEFUL,HAPPY,SATISFYING AND HARMONIOUS LIFE HERE ON EARTH
AND REASSURES YOU THAT DEATH WOULD NOT BE YOUR ULTIMATE END,BUT THAT YOU
WOULD HAVE ANOTHER LIFE THAT WOULD BE EVEN MUCH MORE SATISFYING AND
EXCITING THAN THE ONE YOU ARE HAVING RIGHT NOW.HAVING SAID THAT,ALL OF
US MUST KNOW THAT THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT OTHER RELIGIONS DO FOR THEIR
BELIEVERS,FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT THERE ARE COUNTLESS CHRISTIANS AND
BHUDISTS WHO ARE AS PASSIONATE ABOUT THEIR RELIGION AS YOU ARE ABOUT
YOUR ISLAM AND SOME OF WHO BELIEVE THAT THEIR RELIGION IS MUCH MORE
ACCURATE THAN MATHEMATICS.ISLAM IS GREAT FOR ITS MORAL STRENGHT AND NOT
FOR ITS SCIENCE;IF IT WERE SCIENCE ALONE,NOBODY WOULD ENTER
ISLAM,BECAUSE AMERICA'S SCIENCE
IS MUCH MORE POWERFUL THAN THAT OF ISLAM AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE AN
AMERICAN TO LEARN
AMERICA'S SCIENCE.SO STOP THIS SCIENTIFICATION OF ISLAM; ITS A
DISSERVICE TO YOUR RELIGION.
REGARDS Bassss!!=20
--=20
SZDD=88=F0'3Af=A8=03
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 09:22:46 GMT
From: "Per E. Grotnes" <perg@nfh.uit.no>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Science and religion
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970228104040.264fb7f6@draugen.nfh.uit.no>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Thank you Basssss. I should know better than to start discussing with
believers. Just as a point before resigning the discussion of the science
value of the Quran: I do not believe in science, I just apply its methods in
the study of nature. One of those is a critical mind of the things you tend
to believe.
I am much more interested in the economy discussion. I'm not too afraid of
the state of Islam in The Gambia. It will certainly survive without or with
the facts of mountains as pegs of stability. Much more important is that the
morality and ethics of Islam are kept. I have gnawing feeling that, as is
the case with the too christian people, formal observance of the rules is
more important than the essence: honesty, compassion, industriousness and so
on. By the way, isn't interest on loans wrong according to Islam?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 13:41:37 +0300
From: BASS KOLLEH DRAMMEH <KOLLS567@QATAR.NET.QA>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Science and religion
Message-ID: <31343161.28CA@QATAR.NET.QA>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Per E. Grotnes wrote:
>=20
> Thank you Basssss. I should know better than to start discussing with
> believers. Just as a point before resigning the discussion of the scien=
ce
> value of the Quran: I do not believe in science, I just apply its metho=
ds in
> the study of nature. One of those is a critical mind of the things you =
tend
> to believe.
> I am much more interested in the economy discussion. I'm not too afraid=
of
> the state of Islam in The Gambia. It will certainly survive without or =
with
> the facts of mountains as pegs of stability. Much more important is tha=
t the
> morality and ethics of Islam are kept. I have gnawing feeling that, as =
is
> the case with the too christian people, formal observance of the rules =
is
> more important than the essence: honesty, compassion, industriousness a=
nd so
> on. By the way, isn't interest on loans wrong according to Islam?
PER!!
TAKING INTERESTS ON LOANS IS NOT ONLY WRONG IN ISLAM ,IT IS HARAAM,AND
THAT MEANS A MORTAL SIN THAT COULD CAUSE YOU GET INTO HELL FIRE ON THE
DAY OF JUDGEMENT.
REGARDS BASSSS!!
--=20
SZDD=88=F0'3Af=A8=03
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 08:18:58 -0500
From: Ceesay Soffie <Ceesay_Soffie@ems.prc.com>
To: "'Gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <Gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=PRC%l=CRY1-970228131858Z-130@mcl2.prc.com>
Subject: Another e-mail scam
I just received this e-mail this morning and it is a scam. The 809
area code is for some place in the Carribean (confirmed by the
operator) and the charges will be very similar to calling a 900 number.
This could cost you or the company many $$$. Most likely you'll be
put through to some type of voicemail system that will keep you on the
line for as long as possible to get the most $$$ out of the call. This
is the same area code scam that we were warned about with the pagers
awhile back. DO NOT CALL THEM!
Nine out of ten people over the age of 25 are owed money they didn't
know they had, and you are one of them!
There is over 400 billion dollars in unclaimed money in the United
States, 400 billion! This money belongs to You, and millions of other
Americans.
You may have seen or heard about unclaimed funds on a talk show or news
program. Oprah Winfrey recently devoted an entire program to unclaimed
funds. Her purpose was to alert the public that every individual
should check to see if they are owed money, since 90% of American
adults have abandoned assets.
Most people don't think they've ever lost money, but how do they really
know unless they check? Abandoned money is money you don't know about,
and that is precisely why you must check! 90% of Americans have lost
money and because most don't bother to check, over 400 billion dollars
has accumulated in national depositories. The average amount of money
owed to an individual is approximately $2,200.00. FIND OUT ABOUT YOUR
MONEY TODAY!
HERE IS THE SCAM - PLEASE PASS IT ON
Personal Funds Recovery, Inc. helps individuals across North America
discover these abandoned funds. To initiate a search for your money,
please call our international information hotline at
1-809-414-1350 now. Personal Funds Recovery, Inc. charges you no fees
for a search. If funds are found in your name, you can then choose to
recover the money yourself or let us help recover the money for you.
We only charge a 15% fee of the amount found after the money has been
recovered. There are no up-front costs to you.
That's all there is to it. We want to build a relationship with you to
help recover all your sources of abandoned money. Let us go to work
for you. If you are not satisfied with our assistance, you are under
no obligation whatsoever; Personal Funds Recovery cannot proceed
without your consent. You have a 90% chance of being owed money, so
take that first simple step and inquire about the money waiting for
you! We are available to take your calls 24 hours a day 7 days a week.
Remember, nine out of ten people are owed money! CALL 1-809-414-1350
NOW!
Yours truly,
Personal Funds Recovery, Inc.
TO THOSE WHO ARE NOT IN THE NORTH AMERICA AREA AND YOU RECEIVE THIS
POSTING, PLEASE EXCUSE ME.
SOFFIE
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 09:31:00 -0500
From: "Malanding S. Jaiteh" <msjaiteh@mtu.edu>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Cc: msjaiteh@mtu.edu
Subject: Re: Business in The Gambia
Message-ID: <199702281431.JAA08812@spruce.ffr.mtu.edu>
I fear I will be stepping on toes in this one:
Stop complaining about the "white man" and look into yourself.
----- Begin Included Message -----
>From GAMBIA-L-owner@u.washington.edu Fri Feb 28 03:41:09 1997
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 08:39:26 GMT
From: "Per E. Grotnes" <perg@nfh.uit.no>
To: "GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Business in The Gambia
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: perg@draugen.nfh.uit.no
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
------
>
>
I fear I will be stepping on toes in this one:
Stop complaining about the "white man" and look into yourself. Corruption
exists everywhere, but the people of some nations see it as immoral and do
take action against it as often as they can reveal it. Don't cry for foreign
assistance for cleaning up what may be happening in your own country. There
are at present only two fields of "export" industry in The Gambia,
groundnut and tourism. Neither are very profitable and do not lure any
corrupt large investors to exploit this country. The only source of income
that matters here is foreign aid. The gambian economy itself is too poor to
yield enough for anyone but small crooks from abroad. Hence the money stolen
is out of the pockets of well meaning people from abroad, socalled foreign
aid. Now those money usually anyhow disappear back into the pockets of
bussinessmen of the "generous" countries. Look around in The Gambia. There
are more than one useless monument of well intentioned aid projects left
standing empty, shrimp farms, trawlers and so on. The main investment went
back to the donators in the form of payment for consultants, constructors
and products. A certain amount of money possibly went into the pockets of
high officials. In some instances this is the only part that went to the
"receiving" country. (I am a little harsh here. I would not include the many
smaller relegious and humanitarian aid organisations in this scheme. Mostly
these do a marvellous job, but then they do not have too much money.)
No my friend, Moe, your (the gambian) problem as I see it stems from an
internal economy that cannot support decent wages for the ones set to
administrate the economy. Such wages cannot be paid unless the people as a
whole increases their income. Internal production, not neccessarily for
export, must increase before the whole mess can improve.
I am amazed. In my old age I haven't yet learnt to keep my mouth shut.
Please bear with me fellows.
----- End Included Message -----
Per, I like this one. Keep the good work!!
Malanding
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:56:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Isatou Bojang <isatoub@student.umass.edu>
To: gambia list <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: FW: Petition (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.970228105624.19418B-100000@asimov.oit.umass.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:39:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Abdul-Rahman F Jaradat <afjarada@housing.umass.edu>
To: isatoub@student.umass.edu
Subject: FW: Petition (fwd)
> AsSalaamu Alaikum:
>
> Brothers here is the petition. Please try your best to get as many signature
> as possible.
>
> "We, members of the American Muslim Community, are very concerned and angered
> with the handling of the custody cases concerning Sarah and Aziz Safouane in
> your Washington. The Child Protective Service of your state has removed the
> Muslim children from their homes and placed them in foster care with
> non-Muslim families. These children were born into Muslim family and their
> faith is Islam. By depriving these children from their religious environment,
> the state of Washington is not properly considering the welfare and emotional
> well-being of these children.
>
> The state of Washington is also showing extreme disrespect for the religion
> of Islam and the millions of Muslims who are citizens of the United States of
> America. We urge you to direct your immediate attention to remedy the matter
> by ensuring that the children are placed in the care of Muslim families."
>
> "We also wish to express our deepest concern that the Safouane family is the
> subject of unjust treatment. Please note that while the criminal court of
> Washington found that Mr. Safouane committed no child abuse. However, the
> family's children have not yet been returned to them. This is an injustice
> which merits full inquiry by your office."
>
> E-mail account of The Governor is:
> Governor Gary Locke: Governor.Locke@governor.wa.gov
>
> Jazakallah khair
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:59:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Isatou Bojang <isatoub@student.umass.edu>
To: gambia list <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: FW: Immediate Help is needed. (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.970228105908.19418C-100000@asimov.oit.umass.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:39:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Abdul-Rahman F Jaradat <afjarada@housing.umass.edu>
To: isatoub@student.umass.edu
Subject: FW: Immediate Help is needed. (fwd)
Forwarded message:
>From msa-l-request@student.umass.edu Mon Feb 24 01:49:29 1997
Resent-date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 01:47:18 -0500 (EST)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 01:45:45 -0500 (EST)
Resent-from: msa-l@student.umass.edu
From: Feisal A Ahmad <fahmad@student.umass.edu>
Subject: FW: Immediate Help is needed. (fwd)
Resent-sender: msa-l-request@student.umass.edu
To: PSA-L@stuaf.umass.edu, msa-l@student.umass.edu
Resent-message-id: <"u3aGTZNhbkF.A.6HE.2lTEz"@eliot.oit.umass.edu>
Message-id: <Pine.OSF.3.91.970224014511.6426B-100000@asimov.oit.umass.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Precedence: list
X-Mailing-List: <msa-l@student.umass.edu> archive/latest/5
X-Loop: msa-l@student.umass.edu
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 22:45:34 -0500
From: Faique <fsayeed@emory.edu>
To: 'Suleman Ahmer' <73174.1073@CompuServe.COM>,
'Shahab Nasim' <95NASIMS@tsunami.scar.utoronto.ca>,
'ANWAR ABDELSALAM' <ANWARBA@VM.SC.EDU>,
'Feisal A Ahmad' <fahmad@student.umass.edu>,
"'faique_j._sayed@learnlink.emory.edu'"
<faique_j._sayed@learnlink.emory.edu>,
'Yusuf Rasheed Khan' <gs02yrk@panther.Gsu.EDU>,
'Aamer Akhter' <gt4973a@acme.gatech.edu>,
'shoaib kamal' <JAIDEN3@aol.com>, 'Rehan Sadiq' <rsadiq@questra.com>,
'Rehan' <RXS9073@ritvax.isc.rit.edu>,
'Zia-ur Rahman' <zrahman@CS.WM.EDU>
Subject: FW: Immediate Help is needed.
----------
From: Amjad Taufique
Sent: Friday, February 21, 1997 4:17 PM
To: 'Adam Taufique'; 'Ashfaq Taufique'; 'Azam Syed (Work)'; 'Azeez Bhavnagarwala'; 'Dain Abdul Fattah'; 'Faique Sayeed'; 'Farrukh Raza'; 'Fasi Mohammed'; 'Ghulam Naseer'; 'Gul Joya'; 'Ishaq Zahid (Work)'; 'Jibril Amin'; 'Kashif Syed'; 'Khalid (Advance Printing)'; 'Khalid Griggs'; 'Khalid Khan'; 'Khwaja'; 'M. Tariq Aslam'; 'Manzoor Khalid'; 'Marat Shafigullim'; 'Mir Faiz Ali Khan'; 'Mustafa Kamal'; 'Nadeem Qureshi'; 'Naeem Saleemi'; 'Naeem Saroya'; 'Nouredine Nafia'; 'Nur-al-Haqq (LotusArt)'; 'Rafiyq Mondesir'; 'Rashid Naim (Home)'; 'Rashid Naim (work)'; 'Riaz Shaikh (Work)'; 'Shakeel Syed'; 'Suhail Farooqui'; 'The Message'; 'Wali Muhammad'; 'Ubaid Khan'; 'Young Muslims'; 'Zahid Maqsud'; 'Da'in (Work)'
Subject: Immediate Help is needed.
AsSalaamu Alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu;
This is a sad story of a Muslim family. Please read on.........
Safoune family lives in Seattle, Washington. We at I.C.N.A. (Islamic Circle of North America) did not know about their suffering until a non-Muslim lady called us and told us about them. Peggy Qureshi is married to a Muslim and lives in Dearborn, Michigan. She was involved in a similar case in Michigan. When I.C.N.A. found out about Safoune family, we called people we knew in Seattle and they confirmed it. Aziz and Sarah Safoune are alhamdulillah good practicing Muslim. They were doing home schooling and there has never been any report of child abuse before the accidental death of their child. Br. Aziz was charged with beating the child to death because he didn't pray. This proved to be wrong by the medical reports which indicated that the child had fallen off the bicycle which rapture his spleen and that caused his death.
Child protective Service took all of their children and gave them to foster parents. Aziz and Sarah
did not have enough money to hire an attorney, so they decided to fight the case by themselves. It has been almost two years now, and they are not lawyers. They are spending hours in courts and libraries to fight this injustice.
ICNA has decided to help them in two ways. First is to provide a monthly help for their expenses
(which they are not asking more than $700.00). Secondly, we have hired an attorney who is capable and has experienced in this area. Total cost will be around $20,000.00 to $25,000.00. We have an immediate need of $5000.00. Please try to get donations as soon as possible. Can we get some Islamic Centers to contribute from their Zakat fund.
We have to win this case. CPS is now asking for the permanent adoption of these children. Once
adoption is done than Safoune will never hear about their children. If Muslim community wins this
case, it will be a landmark and will set a standard for any such unfortunate cases in the future.
Safoune's can be contacted through ICNA. They are working with the attorney. They are in tremendous pain, Br. Aziz is suffering from many health problems.
Again, please act fast. May Allah help us all.
Wassalam
Your brother in Islam
Amjad H. Taufique
Product Development
(770) 518-5177
ATAUFIQUE@AGRIS.COM
------------------------------
Date: 28 Feb 1997 19:10:39 +0100
From: "Jobarteh, Momodou" <Momodou.Jobarteh@hordaland.vegvesen.telemax.no>
To: "Gambia-L -Internet... ." <Gambia-l@u.washington.edu> (Return requested)
Subject: RE: faith
Message-ID: <059A633171F9F001*/c=no/admd=telemax/prmd=vegvesen/o=hordaland/s=Jobarteh/g=Momodou/@MHS>
Content-Identifier: 059A633171F9F001
Content-Return: Allowed
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline
Hello M`bai,
I would like to make it clear to you and all fellow netters that I am an =
advocator of the =ABFreedom of speech=BB, =ABfreedom of association=BB an=
d freedom =
of religion etc. etc.
I would not and shall not condone and connive with the so called =ABour =
leaders=BB you made mention in your posting to do wrong or carry on their=
=
wrong doings.
Back to your posting 25.02. I want to make it clear to you that I do not =
disagree with you, neither do I misunderstand your message.
My posting was not a direct reply to you but rather a message to all who =
intend to use the net to express their extreme views on religion.
It is no denying the fact that it is very important to practice what you =
preach as you said.
The hidden fears in my posting was an atmosphere were comparisons are mad=
e =
between Muslims, Christians, etc.
As I mentioned earlier Gambia is a secular State. Therefore religion and =
Freedom of association is much cherished.
The issue of burgling a neighbour s house and me not reporting it is =
completely irrelevant here. We are taking about =ABFaith and Religion=BB =
and in =
this context, my saying that every one is accountable for his or her own =
deeds should be seen as such within the frame work of religion.
Remember that we should not burgle each other on religious issues on the =
net.
Since both Muslims and Christians as well as pagans are using the net.
I want to emphasize that I am not against freedom of expression. I did no=
t =
and still don t disagree with your first posting but am only afraid of th=
e =
misuse of the word =ABFreedom of speech and expression=BB.
Thank you for your advice on the Freedom of speech and freedom of =
expression.
Thanks
Alhagi
------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---- =
--
M`bai wrote 1997-02-26 20:58
Basically what you are saying is that I have no right whatsoever to
express my views.This is one thing that has held Africa back ,
people are not given the opportunity to express themselves which
does no good but harm . This is also one reason why our leaders
carry on doing the wrongs they are doing and it is ignorant and
insensitive people like you that encourage them in doing so.
What will you do if you see a man in your neighbour's house and
you know and believe that that man is burgling that house,
irrespective of whether you know that person or not , what would you
do . Would you let him get on with it and say its private and has got
nothing to do with you or would you rather confront him cleverly
or even alert your neighbours .
If you choose to do the former , which would not surprise me when
you do, judging you fromyour unsound postings, then you cannot call
yourself a good neighbour or a true samaritan or even a good moslem
or christian or jew or even a good pagan. If you choose to do the
latter , then you can consider yourself a good neighbour etc.
Morally and legally that is what you have to do because you owe
your neighbour a duty of care .
reading
I think you need to do a lot of on "The Freedom Of Expression".
This is what gives me the right to say what I said about "faith"
which you don't understand .
There is absolutely no essence or basis in your postings.It is com-
plete and utter rubbish or what Lord Justice Denning would refer to
as "Gymnastic Contortions".
Nothing personal, I'm just speaking my mind , let me remind you that
I have the right to do since your knowledge about "Freedom of
speech and freedom of expression is very minute or even NIL.
Waky waky
OMAR F. M'BAI
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 15:09:02 -0500
From: Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Business in The Gambia
Message-ID: <33173B5D.23AC@earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Per E. Grotnes wrote:
> I fear I will be stepping on toes in this one:
> Stop complaining about the "white man" and look into yourself. Corruption
> exists everywhere, but the people of some nations see it as immoral and do
> take action against it as often as they can reveal it. Don't cry for foreign
> assistance for cleaning up what may be happening in your own country. There
> are at present only two fields of "export" industry in The Gambia,
> groundnut and tourism. Neither are very profitable and do not lure any
> corrupt large investors to exploit this country. The only source of income
> that matters here is foreign aid. The gambian economy itself is too poor to
> yield enough for anyone but small crooks from abroad. Hence the money stolen
> is out of the pockets of well meaning people from abroad, socalled foreign
> aid. Now those money usually anyhow disappear back into the pockets of
> bussinessmen of the "generous" countries. Look around in The Gambia. There
Actually there is one other 'field of export', fisheries, where there is
probably the most corruption. I heard there was a study made where
Gambian export figures in fisheries to the EU and Japan were compared to
import figures in those countries from the Gambia and HUGE discrepancies
were found. The figures were so much higher abroad that if they are
true, they would make fisheries the no. 1 export sector.
Take a look at the way bilateral aid to countries like the Gambia
works. In many cases, companies from the country where the aid comes
from are contracted to work on projects. I think the fisheries sector
is the number one example. Italy has several fisheries projects up the
coast. It has been alleged that the Italian company contracted to the
construction of various landing sites made deals with officials allowing
kickbacks.
Again, most of the illegal trawlers plowing the seas of our coasts are
not Gambian they are foreign. And they continue only making sure that
the authorities have their pockets lined.
One just has to look at the results from these commissions of inquiry to
see that if real corruption took place there must have been conspirators
from the West. A lot of the former officials in the Jawara regime were
found guilty of one or more of three offenses: not retiring travel
imprests, having too many plots of land allocated to them or tax
evasion. That's a joke. I call the process "The Justice of Plots and
Per Diem!" The problem was that investigators were looking in the
country instead of abroad so they did not find much.
Look at the so-called Nigerian oil-scandal. All that was found was that
a lot of oil never made it to our shores and that the money must have
gone somewhere. Where? Nobody knows.
Gambia was and is a country where something like double government
expenditure is in the form of foreign aid and most of that aid comes
from Western countries. If our previous government was as corrupt as
has been alleged don't you think that there hands must have dipped into
this aid. The way the aid is structured, government officials can't
touch much with conspiring with counterparts from the country where the
benevolence springs.
The point I'm trying to make is that these foreign governments must also
bear responsibility in trying to make sure that the aid goes to the
intended recipients. There are studies that show that a large amount of
the foreign aid from western countries actually ends up back in there
own economies.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 15:31:16 -0500
From: Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net>
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Business in The Gambia
Message-ID: <33174094.1305@earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Per E. Grotnes wrote:
> Here we go again. I cannot keep my mouth shut.
> Do not talk about the success of Gamtel in providing service. I just
> recently got the message from The Gambia that I could not get a phone for my
> work there. There is a lack of phone numbers! On the other hand I could not
> have afforded it were it not for the fact that my phone bills would be paid
> by my university. The prices are forbiddingly high. I also have a concern
> that the lines are too poor to support a two-way computer communication
> back home.
Only in the last two and a half years sine the July '94 coup has there
been this drop in quality of service at Gamtel. Most of the blame needs
to go to the AFPRC.
First they went and fired the top 5 managers of the company for their
alleged corruption and mismanagement. While the actions of these
officials may have justified there expulsion, the welfare of the company
and the service to the company did not. Surprisingly enough, two of
them, the Managing Director and his deputy, were taken back a year or so
later.
The other problem was that before the deals with countries like Taiwan
were cemented, the cash strapped Council used funds from the only two
relatively successful parastatals, Gamtel and The Ports Authority, to
finance some of their transition projects including the building of some
schools and administrative buildings, foreign trips and some alleged
arms purchases.
These funds, earned profits, should have been reinvested into the
company as they were in the past to increase the company's capacity.
This includes more telephone lines, including home, cellular and data,
and the proper access to the "information superhighway."
So the reason for the drop in service is basically bad management and
lack of funds, which ironically were the problems that plagued all the
other government companies for years.
The management problems are on the way to being mended but I'm not too
sure this, along with the new responsibilities of Radio Gambia and The
Gambia TV will help the company regain it's stature as one of Africa's
top telecommunications company.
Peace.
Lat
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 00:17:23 -0500
From: Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net>
To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: UNDP Report on Energy
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NEW UNDP REPORT ON ENERGY CITES IMPORTANCE OF CLEAN AND RENEWABLE
SOURCES. A report released by UNDP on Friday, 28 February underscores
the critical role that energy plays in
development, and states that energy issues are directly related to
poverty and other pressing social and environmental challenges. More
than 1.5 billion people still lack access to electricity, the report
states, and three-quarters of the world's energy is still derived from
fossil fuel sources that cause air pollution and a range of other
environmental problems. The report, entitled, "Energy After Rio:
Prospects and Challenges", was released Friday at a UN press briefing by
UNDP Administrator James Gustave Speth, UNDP Assistant Administrator
Anders Wijkman and by Thomas Johansson, Director of UNDP's Energy and
Atmosphere Programme. "The daunting problems of poverty and
environmental destruction cannot be solved without an immediate focus on
the critical role of energy in development," Mr. Wijkman said. "We must
ensure that future energy investments are made in state of the art
energy technologies that are now available." For information call UNDP,
212-906-5030.
[Source: UNDP FLASH!, Monday, 3 March 1997]
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:01:19 +0000
From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou)
To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu
Subject: Independent celebrations - PDOIS Conspicuously Absent
Message-ID: <19970301095925.AAA16742@LOCALNAME>
>From FOROYAA 20-27 February, 1997
***************************************
INDEPENDENCE CELEBRATION WITHOUT A CONSTITUTIONAL CABINET
PDOIS Conspicuously Absent
----------------------------------------
People have been calling FOROYAA to ask why PDOIS representative was
not present during the Independence Celebration.
It is important to point out that the government has extended
invitation to all political parties, which is in line with the
principle of peaceful co-existence between political parties.
However, PDOIS' representatives boycotted the Independence
Celebrations just as the PDOIS' member of the National Assembly
boycotted the inauguration of the NAtional Assembly for the simple
reason that President Jammeh still does not know, and is unwilling to
learn how to govern on the basis of the constitutional provisions.
It is important for the President to realize that there are
enlightened people in this country who have always been consistent in
exposing all actions by the government which are not in line with
principles of good governance. No government, which does not respect
the instrument which gives it legitimacy should be given respect. The
more recalcitrant such a government is to genuine criticism, the more
it should be exposed. This is the only way to humble a government and
safeguard a people from misrepresentation or tyranny.
It is also hoped that President Jammeh will realize that the
days when he could defy criticisms and then say what can they do
about it are gone. Those were days when all well meaning Gambians had
to assist in ensuring that the situation did not deteriorate to a
Liberia-like situation.
Now that he has sought the mandate of the people to govern on
the basis of a constitution, he should show the whole world that he
respects that constitution. To fail to do so will not be a sign of
strength, but a sign of weakness.
In short, one who does not abide by one's oath is not likely
to command respect. The President is free to do what one likes if the
majority of members of the National Assembly are not independent
minded to check the excesses of the executive. However, other
citizens and the international community are also free to deny that
President their respect and regard. Since our Second Republic is
young, its leaders should adhere to constitutional provisions to bar
them from alienation.
THE POSITION OF THE CONSTITUTION ON THE CABINET
The Constitution of the Second Republic states categorically
in paragraph 9(c) of Schedule 2 that although some office holders,
before the Constitution comes into force, may continue to hold their
office, when the Constitution comes into force, "Nothing in this
paragraph shall apply to the office of Minister and Secretary
General."
It is therefore, abundantly clear that once the Constitution came
into force, the offices of Ministers and Secretary General became
authomatically vacant.
According to Section 71, subsection (1) of the Constitution
"There shall be a Cabinet which shall consist of the President, the
Vice President and the Secretaries of State."
According to Section 77, subsection (4) of the Constitution, The
Vice President or a Secretary of State shall, when requested by the
National Assembly, report to the NAtional Assembly on any matter
concerning a department or other business of government committed to
his or her charge and shall be entitled to attend and speak in the
National Assembly whenever any Bill or other matter concerning such
department or business is being debated."
Hence, without the appointment of a Vice President and
Secretaries of State, the questions raised by members of the National
Assembly cannot be answered. The whole system of presenting
Government Bills in the NAtional Assembly will be unworkable.
Now, we have pointed this out a long time ago, but the
President is still paying a deaf ear to the call. In fact during the
Independent Celebrations, he even called the ministers Secretaries of
State when he has appointed no Secretaries of State. This
constitutes an insult to the intelligence of the Gambian people who
have invested much time and energy and resources to establish a
constitutional and democratic order irrespective of the limitations.
In short, how the President is to appoint a Vice President
and Secretaries of State is evident. Section 71, subsection (3)
states that "Secretaries of State shall be appointed by the President
and shall, before assuming the functions of their office take and
subscribe the prescribed oats."
Section 7 (1) of the Interpretation Act states categorically
that "An Act shall come into operation on the date of its publication
in the Gazette, or if its enacted either in the Act itself or in some
other enactment that it shall come into operation on some other date
or that date."
Section 3 defines Act to mean "any enactment by the Parliament
of the GAmbia and any other enactment which has effect as part of the
law of The Gambia and includes any Order, proclamation, rule,
regulation or by-law made under the authority of an Act...."
Hence, it is clear as noon day that once the President makes
an appointment it should be published in The Gambia Gazette.
In short, Notice published for general information should
indicate that, it is hereby announced that following the presidential
and National Assembly elections and assumption of office as President
of The Republic for a tern of five years, the President acting in
accordance with Sections 70 (1), 70 (3), 71 (3), 72 (1) and so on of
the Constitution of the Republic of the Gambia, has appointed a new
government and assigned the following functions and responsibilities.
This should be followed by stating the Secretaries of State
appointed and departments they are to take charge of and the
responsibilities to excercise direction and control over. This is how
proper appointment should be done.
Once the Vice President and Secretaries of State are
appointed and assigned their functions and responsibilities, they
should take oath to affirm that they will perform their duties
without fear and favour, affection or ill-will.
The fact that the President has yet to take this simple move
raises many questions. If he fails to act, speculation will continue
and the integrity of his government will be the casualty.
We hope he will act immediately to avoid such an eventuality.
******************************************************
*******************************************************
http://home3.inet.tele.dk/mcamara
**"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's
possible and suddenly you are doing the impossible"***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 14:10:09 +-100
From: "Matarr M. Jeng." <mmjeng@image.dk>
To: "'The Gambia And Related Issues Mailing List'"
<gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Cc: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Libyan Leader On The Creation Of African Force.
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<Picture: Urban America's premier online destination. Click Here.>
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Libyan Leader On The Creation of African Force=20
Feb. 28, 1997
Paul Ejime PANA Staff Correspondent=20
TRIPOLI, Libya (PANA) - Libyan leader Moammar Kadhafi has urged African =
countries to shun the creation of a continental peace force as proposed =
by the United States.=20
African countries have their own armies and police that can solve =
African conflicts, he said at a dinner he hosted Wednesday in Tripoli =
for delegates attending the 65th ministerial council meeting of the =
Organization of African Unity (O.A.U.).=20
We must set up our own force to prevent any foreign intervention in =
African affairs, he said.=20
Kadhafi said that any African force acting under orders of any foreign =
power would be rejected by all of Africa.=20
He called also for member states of the organization to establish a =
special fund to finance an African controlled force, while not rejecting =
the idea of foreign contributions to the fund.=20
We can accept financial contributions from the United States, France or =
any other country on condition that such contributions are not linked to =
obligations or preconditions, the Libyan leader said.=20
He was reacting to a proposal made in 1996 by former U.S. Secretary of =
State Warren Christopher during an African tour to canvass support for =
the controversial proposal.=20
Several states, including South Africa, had expressed reservations over =
the idea, saying it should be an African rather than a =
foreign-controlled force.=20
Kadhafi, who survived a 1986 U.S. Air Force raid on his Tripoli =
residence, said Africans were capable of mobilizing and funding their =
peace force.=20
America should remain in its territory, he said.=20
Kadhafi also used the occasion to address Africa's many problems, =
blaming most of them on the colonialists, whom he accused of fuelling =
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 14:45:42 +-100
From: "Matarr M. Jeng." <mmjeng@image.dk>
To: "'The Gambia And Related Issues Mailing List'"
<gambia-l@u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <01BC264F.582AC0C0@globip97.image.dk>
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<Picture>
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The previous posting was not in full and I dont know why. Sorry about =
it. Iam trying to send it again.
Greetings
Matarr M. Jeng.
Libyan Leader On The Creation of African Force=20
Feb. 28, 1997
Paul Ejime PANA Staff Correspondent=20
TRIPOLI, Libya (PANA) - Libyan leader Moammar Kadhafi has urged African =
countries to shun the creation of a continental peace force as proposed =
by the United States.=20
African countries have their own armies and police that can solve =
African conflicts, he said at a dinner he hosted Wednesday in Tripoli =
for delegates attending the 65th ministerial council meeting of the =
Organization of African Unity (O.A.U.).=20
We must set up our own force to prevent any foreign intervention in =
African affairs, he said.=20
Kadhafi said that any African force acting under orders of any foreign =
power would be rejected by all of Africa.=20
He called also for member states of the organization to establish a =
special fund to finance an African controlled force, while not rejecting =
the idea of foreign contributions to the fund.=20
We can accept financial contributions from the United States, France or =
any other country on condition that such contributions are not linked to =
obligations or preconditions, the Libyan leader said.=20
He was reacting to a proposal made in 1996 by former U.S. Secretary of =
State Warren Christopher during an African tour to canvass support for =
the controversial proposal.=20
Several states, including South Africa, had expressed reservations over =
the idea, saying it should be an African rather than a =
foreign-controlled force.=20
Kadhafi, who survived a 1986 U.S. Air Force raid on his Tripoli =
residence, said Africans were capable of mobilizing and funding their =
peace force.=20
America should remain in its territory, he said.=20
Kadhafi also used the occasion to address Africa's many problems, =
blaming most of them on the colonialists, whom he accused of fuelling =
conflicts that serve their objective of perpetual subjugation of Africa =
and its people.=20
He condemned the U.S.-sponsored United Nations sanctions against his =
country, saying this amounted to passing judgement without a trial.=20
The Libyan leader described as a challenge of African unity and =
solidarity, Tripoli's hosting of the O.A.U. Council of Foreign =
Ministers, despite the sanctions imposed on Libya in 1992 over =
allegations that the country was involved in the 1988 bombing of a PanAm =
jetliner over Lockerbie, Scotland. Some 270 people were killed in the =
plane and on the ground.=20
Kadhafi reiterated that the suspects arrested by Libya in connection =
with the case could be tried in a neutral country but not in the United =
States or Britain.=20
He praised the delegates for defying the American sanctions, by finding =
their way to Tripoli, from Tunisia by road, a distance of some 300 =
kilometers.=20
This is the first major meeting, bringing together at least 30 African =
foreign ministers, in Tripoli since the imposition of the U.N. =
sanctions.=20
Libya unsuccessfully tried to host an O.A.U. summit in 1982.=20
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright =A9 1997 The Panafrican News Agency. All Rights Reserved.=20
Material may not be redistributed, posted to any other location, =
published or used for broadcast without written authorization from the =
Panafrican News Agency. B.P. 4056, Dakar, Senegal.=20
Tel: (221) 24-13-95 | Fax: (221) 24-13-90 | E-mail: =
quoiset@sonatel.senet.net=20
Return to Previous Page=20
------------------------------
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gambia-l: LOG9703B - Digest 57
